"...shalt surely die."

[canadyjd]

Wow, jd! You really did analyze what I said rather than "blow me off."Isa 49:20-23

I'll look at it a little closer. Not definitive at any rate. At first reading, it probably refers to the children of Israel returning from exile.

Isa 65:20

Not even close to the doctrine you say it supports.

It exaggerates it, right?

Your words, not mine. Truth is truth, even if you don't like the implicactions.

Good -- right passage! And yes, he fasted that God might save him and rejoiced afterward his son would go to heaven. But your understanding of God's motives are general and secular rather than judicial.

I am trying to see David's understanding of God's motives in accordance with his son. Not that his son was innocent (since David himself testifies of being conceived in sin) but that God is a God of great mercy and compassion (which David often testifies to).

God cannot/would not condemn innocence. Do you believe that?

There are none innocent (Roms 3)

I thought Jesus said "I am the Way..." So how do you include infants in this??

Martin Luther said this about the salvation of infants (I believe it was he). Since salvation is a complete work of God through the power of Holy Spirit, then infants can be saved the same way everyone else is. They may not be able to respond in such a way that we understand, but in a way that God understands.

That being said, I know scripture testifies of God as being full of mercy and compassion. I don't have to go any further than that. Since scripture is almost completely silent on the issue, I am content to stick with scripture.

Is an infant under "the wrath of God" or the vagaries of men?

Scripture testifies that those with a sin nature are under the wrath of God. It also teaches we are conceived in sin. No vagaries of men, there. Just scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

[Frogman]

I thought Jesus said "I am the Way..." So how do you include infants in this??

If these infants do no sin, then Jesus is not the Way for anyone of them...right?

I think I am beginning to follow your reasoning now...

Or is Jesus the only Way? And if so, how does He reconcile one who is yet to be unreconciled?

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[webdog]

You tell me, why do they die, if they have no sin? If they are innocent, like Adam before the fall when sin and death entered, why do they die?

The whole planet is under the curse of sin...but not guilty of actually commiting sin. Animals don't sin, and they still die. Plants don't sin, and they die. All of creation is under the curse of sin.

 

[skypair]

canadyjd,

If your are so confident that God saves innocent children, then do you also hope that He will save some adults who are without Christ when they die? You obviously have a distorted view of scripture on the issue but it IS the only one that you have been taught, Calvinism having taken away God's view. Even Jesus saying "Of such [children] is the kingdom of heaven" isn't enough for you to believe that they are considered by God "just" according to innocence.

And I obviously get nowhere citing scripture which contradicts your blessed doctrines of men. Do you know that at one time they had the audacity to call systematic theology "Reform Dogma?" "Believe it though you may not understand it" is what dogma means. That is, BTW, much of what Calvinism is.

skypair

 

[skypair]

If these infants do no sin, then Jesus is not the Way for anyone of them...right?

I think I am beginning to follow your reasoning now...

Or is Jesus the only Way? And if so, how does He reconcile one who is yet to be unreconciled?

bro. Dallas:wavey:

bDallas -- Calvinists have another interesting way to "save" babies. They say, "God knows which ones would have believed in Christ had they come of age to do so. Therefore, they were 'elect' from birth."

It is really an issue that Calvinists and Reformers don't want to deal with.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

The whole planet is under the curse of sin...but not guilty of actually commiting sin. Animals don't sin, and they still die. Plants don't sin, and they die. All of creation is under the curse of sin.

But we are not plants and animals. We human beings, created in the image of God. And God did curse the snake and the ground in Gen., but the word "curse" is not used in reference to mankind. We certainly suffer the consequences of sin, but I don't see that God has "cursed" us.

The sin of Adam must be, in someway, passed on to all people. It seems scripture testifies it is through the sin nature.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

canadyjd,
If your are so confident that God saves innocent children, then do you also hope that He will save some adults who are without Christ when they die?

You have misunderstood me and have misrepresented me. I have not claimed infants are innocent. I have not stated I was "confident" that God saves infants who die. I said there is very little scriptural support for the doctrine. The one exception is the 2 Samuel passage we have discussed.

The most I am willing to say is, if indeed God saves infants who die, it is because of His great mercy, not because they were "innocent" as you have stated.

You obviously have a distorted view of scripture on the issue

There is only one passage of scripture, that I can find, that addresses this issue, and that one is not specific. We have discussed it. You see David declaring his son "innocent" even though he testifies people are conceived in sin. I see David hoping in the great mercy and compassion of God, which David testifies to with great frequency.

I'll let others decide who is distorting scripture here.

As far as adults who die without Christ, scripture is very clear they are lost.

Even Jesus saying "Of such [children] is the kingdom of heaven" isn't enough for you to believe that they are considered by God "just" according to innocence.

Again, you are making great assumptions on the text of scripture that just is not there. Jesus does not say "such are the kingdom of heaven" because they are "just" based on "innocence". Those words are not in the text. Jesus is speaking of the humility and total dependence of children.

And I obviously get nowhere citing scripture which contradicts your blessed doctrines of men.

The "doctrines of men' are the doctrines of Jesus and Paul and Peter and James and all the rest of the apostles. And you haven't cited any that contradict them. When I demonstrate to you, beyond question, that you are teaching doctrine contrary to what these men produced under inspiration of Holy Spirit, you simply move on to the next distortion of scripture according to your own understanding.

"Believe it though you may not understand it" is what dogma means. That is, BTW, much of what Calvinism is.

I believe the clear words of God's Holy Word. I cannot stand on anything else. You have consistently distorted that meaning. Nearly all of what you have taught here is doctrine of your own imagination. And even though you think your under the inspiration of Holy Spirit when you say it, the fact that your doctrine is contrary to Holy Scripture proves that you are not.

peace to you.raying:

 

[webdog]

The sin of Adam must be, in someway, passed on to all people. It seems scripture testifies it is through the sin nature.

I agree the sin nature of Adam is passed on to all men, but not Adam's guilt. Physical death is indeed the result of God's curse to all creation (it is appointed unto man once to die).

 

[canadyjd]

I agree the sin nature of Adam is passed on to all men, but not Adam's guilt. Physical death is indeed the result of God's curse to all creation (it is appointed unto man once to die).

The sin nature causes us to be under the wrath of God. If the "guilt" associated with sin (part of having a sin nature) doesn't cause us to be under the wrath of God, then what does?

And if it is "appointed once for man to die" (and it is), then who is making the appointment?

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

You have misunderstood me and have misrepresented me.

Sorry, you're right. I interjected "innocent" in there by mistake.

I said there is very little scriptural support for the doctrine. The one exception is the 2 Samuel passage we have discussed.

And what Jesus said -- "of such is the kingdom of heaven" -- right? jd -- I think you aren't trying to find such.

You see David declaring his son "innocent" even though he testifies people are conceived in sin. I see David hoping in the great mercy and compassion of God, which David testifies to with great frequency.

David wasn't "hoping" when he said "I will go to him." That is a statement of truth as David knew it.

The "doctrines of men' are the doctrines of Jesus and Paul and Peter and James and all the rest of the apostles.

Nah, they are the doctrines of Origen, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Jim Jones, etc. I hardly think that Paul would warn believers against his own teachings, do you?

You have consistently distorted that meaning. Nearly all of what you have taught here is doctrine of your own imagination. And even though you think your under the inspiration of Holy Spirit when you say it, the fact that your doctrine is contrary to Holy Scripture proves that you are not.

Well, thank you for those edifying words, jd. Here I thought I was doing the same exegeting of scripture as you thought you were. But instead -- imagine my dismay -- I have been trying to distort scripture and can't hear the Holy Spirit.

I guess the "test" would be "does what I say glorify God," wouldn't it? Or does what you say glorify God? In your estimation, does it glorify God to claim He condemns babies to sin and hell? Shame on you and you accusations of me! You're not even half way to what the Spirit says in claiming "well, MAYBE God has 'great mercy' on them." What kind of characterization of God is that!? Do you not KNOW He is merciful? Are you afraid to find that in the Bible on account of your precious "theology of men??"

I'm sorry. This whole line of reasoning is starting to disgust me. By your leave, I'll let you sort it out for yourself.

skypair

peace to you.raying:

 

[Frogman]

The whole planet is under the curse of sin...but not guilty of actually commiting sin. Animals don't sin, and they still die. Plants don't sin, and they die. All of creation is under the curse of sin.

Excellent observation:thumbs:

still death entered by sin. Adam's sin. Not mine, not yours, nor anyone elses. Thus we are under the condemnation of death because of Adam's sin. We are both physically and spirtually separated from God because of Adam's sin.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[Frogman]

bDallas -- Calvinists have another interesting way to "save" babies. They say, "God knows which ones would have believed in Christ had they come of age to do so. Therefore, they were 'elect' from birth."

It is really an issue that Calvinists and Reformers don't want to deal with.

skypair

Dear Skypair,
I disagree with anything that says God chose anyone based upon His foreknowledge, this includes infants.

Just fyi, here is what I believe in relation to the TULIP:

Total Depravity---yes
Unconditional Election---yes
Limited Atonement---no
Irrisistable Grace---yes
Perseverance of the saints---no

thus, I am not Calvinists, I also do not believe in three-pointers:smilewinkgrin:
unless of course 'Calvin' was only a three pointer

I believe the Limited Atonement is really Particular Redemption

I believe the saints do not, cannot persevere, but truly are preserved by Grace.


May God Bless,
bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[webdog]

Excellent observation:thumbs:

still death entered by sin. Adam's sin. Not mine, not yours, nor anyone elses. Thus we are under the condemnation of death because of Adam's sin. We are both physically and spirtually separated from God because of Adam's sin.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

Death entered by sin, but to be judged for sin, we are guilty of our own sin, not Adam's. We die spiritually when we die, as Paul points out in Romans 6.

 

[reformedbeliever]

bDallas -- Calvinists have another interesting way to "save" babies. They say, "God knows which ones would have believed in Christ had they come of age to do so. Therefore, they were 'elect' from birth."

It is really an issue that Calvinists and Reformers don't want to deal with.

skypair

Please provide a quote where ANY Calvinist said this. Either provide the quote, or admit that you have falsely represented what Calvinists believe or say. Wilful misrepresentation is false witness. A false witness is a liar. Certainly you are not a liar are you sky?

 

[Rippon]

Please provide a quote where ANY Calvinist said this. Either provide the quote, or admit that you have falsely represented what Calvinists believe or say. Wilful misrepresentation is false witness. A false witness is a liar. Certainly you are not a liar are you sky?

Well , RB , the evidence is conclusive . SP has repeatedly , without any remorse , lied about what Calvinists believe . Never once have I seen him utter an "I'm sorry." . SP does not specialize in documenting what he makes up on the fly about us . His specialty is confusion and deliberate distortion . Non-Cals have no ally in this individual .

But I will join in and ask ( probably in vain ) of SP : Where has any Calvinist here said that people are "elect from birth" ?

 

[psalms109:31]

Salvation

I don't see calvinist saying that those who believe are elected from birth, but before they were even born, before the foundation of the world.

I see this also, but God had not elected individuals after the cross before the foundation of the world, but He elected children that He foreknew before the foundation of the world children that do not lean on thier own understanding but trust in the name of the Lord.

God said Himself that He will keep not they will keep but He will keep those who are meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord.

Of coarse they were chosen before the foundation of the world. God wouldn't be God if He didn't know who they were going to be.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't see calvinist saying that those who believe are elected from birth, but before they were even born, before the foundation of the world.

I see this also, but God had not elected individuals after the cross before the foundation of the world, but He elected children that He foreknew before the foundation of the world children that do not lean on thier own understanding but trust in the name of the Lord.

God said Himself that He will keep not they will keep but He will keep those who are meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord.

Of coarse they were chosen before the foundation of the world. God wouldn't be God if He didn't know who they were going to be.

You have said several times that God only saves the meek and the humble, but I don't see this at all in the salvation of Paul for example. He was anything BUT meek and humble when Christ blinded him on the road to Damascus. He only became meek and humble after he was saved. Unbelievers are not humble. They are consumed with self. It takes the work of the Holy Spirit to change our hearts to have the ability to see our sin and humble ourselves before God.

 

[psalms109:31]

God word

It is God word that humbles us. Without His word we will never be humbled.

He himself said that he himself would be disquilified from the prize.

The goal of the race is the salvation of our soul

So this goes and shows us the whole truth that men even deny scripture.

It will be those who endure to the end that will be saved.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

[Amy.G]

It is God word that humbles us. Without His word we will never be humbled.

He himself said that he himself would be disquilified from the prize.

The goal of the race is the salvation of our soul

So this goes and shows us the whole truth that men even deny scripture.

It will be those who endure to the end that will be saved.

No, it is the conviction and the work of the Holy Spirit that humbles us. I know plenty of people who have read God's word and are still unbelievers. We cannot even comprehend the depth of God's word until the Holy Spirit gives us life and the ability to comprehend.

 

[psalms109:31]

Spirit

Jesus words our Spirit and they are life.

Through His word we are convicted by the Holy Spirit

So many people read the scripture not as a child and cannot understand.

Why?

because God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to little children.