Sheep or Goat?

[Iconoclast]

More obfuscation and deflection from the defender of mischaracterization.
What we have in mind today or yesterday is not necessarily the same. We set our minds on different things. Some are fleshly, I am cold, hungry, or covetous. Sunday I will focus on our risen Christ. We cannot please God with our mind set on sinful things, nor are we able. But, and this is what Icon claims we cannot do, is at times set our minds on spiritual things, such as entering the kingdom, unless we are enabled by "irresistible grace." This is false as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13 where fallen men are in the process of entering the kingdom, yet were prevented from going in. This proves fallen men can set their minds of spiritual things, but they were prevented from going in, thus whatever grace influenced them was not "irresistible."

I have demonstrated the true meaning of Romans 8:7 many times, yet somehow Icon continues to deflect and ignore, no matter the cost.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

It is interesting that no one seems to support your idea on any of these verses,the discussion is going on all around you though.

 

[Van]

It is interesting that no one seems to support your idea on any of these verses,the discussion is going on all around you though.

I knew you would seek to change the subject, because you have no basis for your assertions. Icon asserted "no one" but somehow post #83 got a like!

I set my mind on your likely rebuttal efforts, but then changed my focus to your likely deflection efforts.

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the fallen can at times seek the kingdom, and not be compelled by "irresistible" grace. No one is a goat, the sheep usually refers to fallen mankind, of My sheep refers to those of fallen mankind who are open and receptive to God's word, and My sheep refers to those made spotless by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Note the conflation of being unable to change our condition as a corrupted, depraved sinner, to supposedly being unable to set our minds on some spiritual things. The old prove "A" then claim you have proven "B."

Jhn 15:5 KJV - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,

[I knew you would seek to change the subject, because you have no basis for your assertions. Icon asserted "no one" but somehow post #83 got a like! ]

The one like was by someone who suggested ezk.34 was not speaking of the Son.

 

[Van]

Van,

[I knew you would seek to change the subject, because you have no basis for your assertions. Icon asserted "no one" but somehow post #83 got a like! ]

The one like was by someone who suggested ezk.34 was not speaking of the Son.

More fault finding addressing individuals, more change of subject deflection, more of the same .

John 10:26 (NASB) “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Obviously those not "of My sheep" are not open or receptive to God's word. Apparently the logical necessity of those "of My sheep" being open and receptive is beyond the grasp of some holding differing views.

John 8:47 (NASB)
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

To be "of God" or "of My sheep" is to be open and receptive to God's word. Those that deny this truth, deny the obvious.

 

[Van]

Jhn 15:5 KJV - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Yes, this is an interesting verse. Apparently it is possible for "professing" Christians to "abide in Jesus" but because God has not credited their faith as righteousness, Jesus does not "abide in them." Thus as with all who are not saved, all their works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. The only way to bring forth "much fruit" is to be born anew, a new creation created for "good works" which means those who have been redeemed (transferred spiritually into Christ) and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit (indwelt with the Spirit of Christ.)

 

[Iconoclast]

More fault finding addressing individuals, more change of subject deflection, more of the same .

John 10:26 (NASB) “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Obviously those not "of My sheep" are not open or receptive to God's word. Apparently the logical necessity of those "of My sheep" being open and receptive is beyond the grasp of some holding differing views.

John 8:47 (NASB)
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

To be "of God" or "of My sheep" is to be open and receptive to God's word. Those that deny this truth, deny the obvious.

So now you desperately try and combine a phrase from one verse, and because it has the word of in it, that becomes the linguistic rosetta stone? I am sure somebody thinks that is a good idea..
Do these ideas just come to you, or do you have to work at it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, this is an interesting verse. Apparently it is possible for "professing" Christians to "abide in Jesus" but because God has not credited their faith as righteousness, Jesus does not "abide in them." Thus as with all who are not saved, all their works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. The only way to bring forth "much fruit" is to be born anew, a new creation created for "good works" which means those who have been redeemed (transferred spiritually into Christ) and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit (indwelt with the Spirit of Christ.)

No one is transferred anywhere. Election took place before creation.

 

[Van]

So now you desperately try and combine a phrase from one verse, and because it has the word of in it, that becomes the linguistic rosetta stone? I am sure somebody thinks that is a good idea..
Do these ideas just come to you, or do you have to work at it?

Another "you, you and you" post, deflection on display.

I presented the result of study, two verses on the same topic, and somehow its not exegetical, but the object of ridicule. People who are open and receptive to God's word are "of God" and "of My sheep."

 

[Van]

No one is transferred anywhere. Election took place before creation.

You made this claim before, and I responded before with Colossians 1:13, and then we get the nonsense asserted yet again.
ESV
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
NASB
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

 

[Yeshua1]

seem to be saying the same thing. If "sheep" is synonymous with "elect" then the elect are "sheep" both prior to and after experiential salvation.

If "goat" are non-elect or not chosen "to" salvation then damnation is the only other alternative.

They become His sheep when the Holy Spirit does His transformation work unto the elect, as he brings them to faith in H=Jesus and receiving the eternal Life God chose them to now have!

 

[Yeshua1]

prior to salvation we are unsaved.

In the kingdom of satan and died in our sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Bible never refers to the unsaved as goats apart from the final judgment. However, the elect are referred to as sheep. Even if a future sheep has yet to be converted he is not a goat. That category does not exist except in the eschaton. Go back and read the passage I quoted from Matthew 25.

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How can we be born as heep when we are born fallen in sin though?

 

[Iconoclast]

How can we be born as heep when we are born fallen in sin though?

Hint:

Lost sheep

 

[Van]

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the fallen can at times seek the kingdom, and not be compelled by "irresistible" grace. No one is a goat, the sheep usually refers to fallen mankind, of My sheep refers to those of fallen mankind who are open and receptive to God's word, and My sheep refers to those made spotless by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Iconoclast]

You made this claim before, and I responded before with Colossians 1:13, and then we get the nonsense asserted yet again.
ESV
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
NASB
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Here the verse plainly states....transferred into the Kingdom...not what you suggest at all.
Why does that seem to happen often?
This seems to happen frequently

 

[Iconoclast]

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the fallen can at times seek the kingdom, and not be compelled by "irresistible" grace. No one is a goat, the sheep usually refers to fallen mankind, of My sheep refers to those of fallen mankind who are open and receptive to God's word, and My sheep refers to those made spotless by the blood of the Lamb.

Awhile back,you had a failed thread on this. Of course it has nothing to do with the O.P.
No one is receptive as you claim. 1 cor 2:14
Yet that does not stop you from posting it over and over again.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hint:

Lost sheep

I see the elect as being His sheep, but that they still must receive Jesus as Lord and Messiah thru faith in order to be that in sight of God!

 

[Reformed]

I see the elect as being His sheep, but that they still must receive Jesus as Lord and Messiah thru faith in order to be that in sight of God!

Let us try to get this whole thing into focus.

1. The Elect are sheep (of Christ's fold) according to Matthew 25:31-33.
2. The Elect have always been predestined (Ephesians 1:5) and as a consequence of being predestined, God purpose for them has always been to be sheep.
3. Before the Elect are converted they are lost sheep that are not yet of Christ's fold but they will eventually become part of His fold (John 10:16).
4. The Elect, even before they are converted, are not goats. The sheep have always been sheep; either lost sheep outside the fold or sheep that are part of the fold. Goats are those who have never been Elect.

This whole topic really has to do with the divine purpose of God. In John 10 we see Jesus as the Good Shepherd who calls His sheep by name (the Elect) and they respond. In Matthew 25 we see Jesus the rightful judge, separating His elect (sheep) from the reprobate (goats). A goat is never a lost sheep that becomes a sheep after it is saved. I really do not know how many times this needs to be stated.

 

[Yeshua1]

Let us try to get this whole thing into focus.

1. The Elect are sheep (of Christ's fold) according to Matthew 25:31-33.
2. The Elect have always been predestined (Ephesians 1:5) and as a consequence of being predestined, God purpose for them has always been to be sheep.
3. Before the Elect are converted they are lost sheep that are not yet of Christ's fold but they will eventually become part of His fold (John 10:16).
4. The Elect, even before they are converted, are not goats. The sheep have always been sheep; either lost sheep outside the fold or sheep that are part of the fold. Goats are those who have never been Elect.

This whole topic really has to do with the divine purpose of God. In John 10 we see Jesus as the Good Shepherd who calls His sheep by name (the Elect) and they respond. In Matthew 25 we see Jesus the rightful judge, separating His elect (sheep) from the reprobate (goats). A goat is never a lost sheep that becomes a sheep after it is saved. I really do not know how many times this needs to be stated.

The Goat and the Sheep are both lost though, and the sheep does not have eternal life until saved by Christ, correct?