Should A Christian Be a Pacifist?

[Ulsterman]

I've always thought this was interesting:


I would like someone to show where scripture shows either Christ or the Apostles tell those soldiers who became saved to get out of the army or even ever allude to such. Fact: you can't find it. There is nothing that speaks against it and nothing specifically to it.

Although I cannot quote such a Scripture, neither can you and in fairness you admit yours is as much an argument from silence. So it is void. As far as Justin Martyr's quote it comes from Apology I, 39.

 

[Allan]

Although I cannot quote such a Scripture, neither can you and in fairness you admit yours is as much an argument from silence. So it is void.

I gave you my scripture showing Jesus tell His own disciples to arm themselves. But I think you are refering to Jesus nor the Apostles telling the soldiers who became saved to leave off being a soldier since it was against Christ's teaching. That should have been a specifc topic since there were a couple soldier who became saved and their maintaining soldiership was against the teachings of Christ. But ok.

As far as Justin Martyr's quote it comes from Apology I, 39.

Thanks.

 

[Ulsterman]

I gave you my scripture showing Jesus tell His own disciples to arm themselves. But I think you are refering to Jesus nor the Apostles telling the soldiers who became saved to leave off being a soldier since it was against Christ's teaching. That should have been a specifc topic since there were a couple soldier who became saved and their maintaining soldiership was against the teachings of Christ. But ok.


Thanks.

Fair enough. But I have already gave a Scripture recording Jesus telling His disciples to lay down their arms - Matt 26:52. Since no Scripture is of any private interpretation, i.e., we must compare Scripture with Scripture we will have to move beyond these proof texts if we are going to determine a truly Christian ethos on war. BTW I am not a pacifist, I am only playing devil's advocate in this debate. I am a selectivist when it comes to war.

 

[DHK]

If your wife and/or children were assaulted on the street you would defend them.

Justified war is the defense of your nation, your extended family.
HankD

You leap frog from family to to nation in one jump. You go from standing in defence of your wife to firing nuclear missiles or dropping the atomic bomb as they did to end WWII and killing countless of innocent civilians. You go from defending a child to dropping cluster bombs taking out entire villages of innocent people. How can you make such a comparison.

In days of old, a Godly man would simply say: "to get to my wife and children you will have to go through me first." But he would not use a weapon. Some would resist physically and others would simply pray. Often the power of prayer was enough to turn away their enemy.

Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

 

[Steven2006]

You leap frog from family to to nation in one jump. You go from standing in defence of your wife to firing nuclear missiles or dropping the atomic bomb as they did to end WWII and killing countless of innocent civilians. You go from defending a child to dropping cluster bombs taking out entire villages of innocent people. How can you make such a comparison.

In days of old, a Godly man would simply say: "to get to my wife and children you will have to go through me first." But he would not use a weapon. Some would resist physically and others would simply pray. Often the power of prayer was enough to turn away their enemy.

Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Amen! We need to have faith in our Lord, not only for providing our daily needs and health, but for our protection as well. I couldn't imagine a stronger example of our faith than one praying for both his family but also the one threatening us as well.

 

[Palatka51]

Ulsterman, DHK, Sirs;
None of you have as yet to address the question that I proposed regarding the positions of Policemen, Judges, Prosecuting Attorneys, Mayors, Local Officials, Sheriffs, Deputy Sheriffs, Governors, Legislators, Congressmen, Senators and Presidents. Everyone of these officers will have to make decisions that will mean the life and death of many people that are criminals.
Can they in their positions be Christians?
Is it Biblical for them to use lethal force to carry out their duties?

 

[Steven2006]

Ulsterman, DHK, Sirs;
None of you have as yet to address the question that I proposed regarding the positions of Policemen, Judges, Prosecuting Attorneys, Mayors, Local Officials, Sheriffs, Deputy Sheriffs, Governors, Legislators, Congressmen, Senators and Presidents. Everyone of these officers will have to make decisions that will mean the life and death of many people that are criminals.
Can they in their positions be Christians?
Is it Biblical for them to use lethal force to carry out their duties?

I thought I did earlier, when I said I do believe that we should hold criminals responsible, and punish them, I just am not in favor of the death penalty.

 

[Palatka51]

IMO is allowed by Genesis 9:6 and the citizenry is the number one defense resource to be the instruments of God to bring wrath upon the Hitlers of this world.


HankD

These verses also support your words of wisdom.
Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[Steven2006]

These verses also support your words of wisdom.
Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

You keep using that argument, but would you not concede, that a Christian should not follow the government if he believes it goes against his Godly convictions? That is just a convenient argument for you because you believe some killing to be justified, but apply that argument to something you didn't believe in, and does it still hold water? So the real question for this debate is what does scripture tell us about killing another person.

 

[DHK]

Ulsterman, DHK, Sirs;
None of you have as yet to address the question that I proposed regarding the positions of Policemen, Judges, Prosecuting Attorneys, Mayors, Local Officials, Sheriffs, Deputy Sheriffs, Governors, Legislators, Congressmen, Senators and Presidents. Everyone of these officers will have to make decisions that will mean the life and death of many people that are criminals.
Can they in their positions be Christians?
Is it Biblical for them to use lethal force to carry out their duties?

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Government is very much different than war. And even war is very much different than a family bearing arms. God put in place government. He even put in place the death penalty which I believe is justified by the above verse and by the practice of the OT law. Our judicial law is based on the Ten Commandments and much more than the Ten Commandments. It is largely based on many of the laws and penalties given in the Old Testament with some variations. Many of them have changed over the years as our government has become more liberal. But the basis of our judicial system came largely from the Bible.

I don't believe it is wrong for a Christian to hold any of the above positions that you have mentioned.
None of those positions hinder the carrying out the justice that God deemed to be right and just. Government is a God-ordained institution. Without it our nation would collapse. God ordained governement; but he never ordained war; not in the New Testament.

 

[Palatka51]

I thought I did earlier, when I said I do believe that we should hold criminals responsible, and punish them, I just am not in favor of the death penalty.

Thank you Steven, but how do you handle this verse? Remember it is New Testament teaching not OT.
Romans 13
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The sword is the instrument of death, not a whip, not imprisonment but for execution of a death sentence upon the evil doer.

 

[Palatka51]

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Government is very much different than war. And even war is very much different than a family bearing arms. God put in place government. He even put in place the death penalty which I believe is justified by the above verse and by the practice of the OT law. Our judicial law is based on the Ten Commandments and much more than the Ten Commandments. It is largely based on many of the laws and penalties given in the Old Testament with some variations. Many of them have changed over the years as our government has become more liberal. But the basis of our judicial system came largely from the Bible.

I don't believe it is wrong for a Christian to hold any of the above positions that you have mentioned.
None of those positions hinder the carrying out the justice that God deemed to be right and just. Government is a God-ordained institution. Without it our nation would collapse. God ordained governement; but he never ordained war; not in the New Testament.

So an evil dictator (Hitler) with covetous intentions invades a nation (Poland) and it does not have the right to take up arms to defend itself?

 

[Steven2006]

Thank you Steven, but how do you handle this verse? Remember it is New Testament teaching not OT.
Romans 13
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The sword is the instrument of death, not a whip, not imprisonment but for execution of a death sentence upon the evil doer.

I believe that government is to protect us, and punish those that commit crimes against us. But I think taking a life should be left to the Lord. Additionally the chance for human error, and that an innocent might be put to death. What is wrong with life in prison for justice?

Deu 32:35 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'
Rom 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath {of God,} for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Hbr 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

 

[DHK]

So an evil dictator (Hitler) with covetous intentions invades a nation (Poland) and it does not have the right to take up arms to defend itself?

Yes it certainly does. But the question asked comes down to a personal level. Do I as a Christian believe that I should pick up a gun and start shooting and murdering those who very well could be my fellow brethren in Christ?
In a very different way, when Jesus called one to follow him, he made an excuse and said: I will, but let me first go and bury my father." What was the reply of Jesus?
"Let the dead bury the dead; but you come and follow me."

I believe the same principle can be applied here.
We are called to a higher calling--a spiritual warfare not a carnal warfare. Let the dead fight the dead, but come and follow Jesus.

 

[Steven2006]

A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. He is obligated to obey the teachings of Jesus. Our conscience should be subject to Christ alone, to abandon our conscience to human authority would be to betray Christ Jesus.

 

[Ed Edwards]

source:
http://www.baptistarticles.com/Article/For-Such-a-Time-as-This-/113

Nevertheless, we are not expected to sit defenseless in the face of Islamic attack. Instead, we ought to trust God to raise up a defender of His people as He has done in the past. What's more, it is just possible that He already raised up minister of God, in the person of President Bush, as "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" by wielding the sword of the United States military.
If so, that sure puts the war in Iraq and the overall war on terror (i.e. Islamic fundamentalism) in a different light. It could be that President Bush did not "bear the sword in vain" when he sent the military against the Taliban and destroyed al-Queda's base of operations in Afghanistan.

Amen, Brother Pastor Al Davis -- preach it.

Did Jesus say this?
He who lives by the sword will die by the sword.)

[SIZE=-1]Did Muhammad say this?
"The sword is the key to heaven and hell"

[/SIZE]

 

[Steven2006]

Did Jesus say this?
He who lives by the sword will die by the sword.)

Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.


Yes, He did, but when one looks at the entire verse, and not just the second half of it, we see He was instructing to put away and not use the sword for that reason. He was admonishing the use of the sword.

As far as Pastor Al Davis, with all due respect he wasn't quoting scripture, just voicing opinion.

 

[Palatka51]

Ulsterman, DHK and Steven2006;
If in the case of an invasion of your home or nation you should not defend yourselves due to your own convictions that is your choice. I do not doubt that the intents of your heart are noble ones. That in your hearts and minds you are doing as God would have you to do. We live in a nation that will provide a reasonable way for objectors to serve without compromising your conscientious objections.
You have admirably projected your convictions very well and you should continue to live by your convictions as you believe them to be.
I can relate to much of what you feel is right. I for one and am foremost a peaceable person, however if there is an invasion of my home or nation I feel that I should do my part to the best of mine ability to protect the lives of my family, friends, neighbors and countrymen. As I and others who have replied with all honesty of heart do believe that it is not contrary to the Holy Scriptures, OT or NT, to defend what is dear to us. We have given scripture that we believe as to not only allow it but to also justify it. Both are very noble acts that should be honored.
I will not judge a man that will not defend family, friends, neighbors or countrymen as being neglectful of duty to family, friends, neighbors or countrymen as long as they worked to help feed and nurture the wounded of those who have decided that they should defend, family, friends, neighbors or countrymen or even the enemy soldiers as they might have need as prisoners of war or of crimes committed.
I know that you have asked for NT reasons for pacifism and I have given Romans 13:1-7 as the scriptures that I feel best gives Government the authority to defend itself and to call men to arms to subdue an invading force of an evil nature.
As it concerns Christ's teachings. We must realize that Christ was to go to the cross and that His disciples were not to be partakers of His cup. This is why IMO He taught them to put away their swords. That if they brandished them they would be held as traitors and crucified along with Him. When Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priests' servant He healed it. If they had arrested Peter, this healing would have been a witness that His disciples were not taught to be rebellious. Thus staying an execution of His disciples.
This is the context of this scripture;
Matthew 26:51-54
51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear.
52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

I know that you are seeking NT scriptures that speak to pacifism however the OT is just as relevant.

Ecclesiastes 3
1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
May we all have the wisdom to know just the right time we should implement each above action.

 

[DHK]

8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
May we all have the wisdom to know just the right time we should implement each above action.

When the major theme of the NT is love, can we really say that there is ever a time to hate--a time hateful enough to kill one another?

 

[Steven2006]

Ulsterman, DHK and Steven2006;
If in the case of an invasion of your home or nation you should not defend yourselves due to your own convictions that is your choice. I do not doubt that the intents of your heart are noble ones. That your in hearts and minds you are doing as God would have you to do. We live in a nation that will provide a reasonable way for objectors to serve without compromising your contentious objections.
You have admirably projected your convictions very well and you should continue to live by your convictions as you believe them to be.
I can relate to much of what you feel is right. I for one and am foremost a peaceable person, however if there is an invasion of my home or nation I feel that I should do my part to the best of mine ability to protect the lives of my family, friends, neighbors and countrymen. As I and others who have replied with all honesty of heart do believe that it is not contrary to the Holy Scriptures, OT or NT, to defend what is dear to us.

I want to make sure, that you understand, I do not judge anyone who disagrees with me on this matter, and repect your beliefs. But when asked I do have to hold to my consciences, and stand for what I feel scripture is saying. I do admit that if someone was ready to harm my family, I can't answer honestly how I would respond, only how I hope that I would. I am weak, and I don't know if I would be strong enough to not fight back, if put in that situation, I pray that I never have to find out. I hope I would be a good witness, to that person, and maybe he would come to know Christ because of my convictions. I probably would hold him, for them to flee, or put myself in front of them, and pray out loud for both our protection, and his forgiveness, I just don't believe I could kill. But believe me I understand your points, I just can't hold to them in my heart, it would be a sin for me.(not that I am saying it is a sin for others). As far as war, just for a moment could you imagine if every Christian in all the world would stand up and say no killing, but love for our enemies no matter what the cost? Yes, there would be some martyrs, but just imaging the witness to the world? There could possibly be a revival that this world has never seen. Plus I have faith in God, that he will protect, us, I don't put any limits on Him, but if it is his will that I must die, for Him, I gladly will.