Should A Christian Be a Pacifist?

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Steven2006,

>You claim that someone holding to their beliefs are "shirking" their responsibility, which is judging them, then said "but perhaps one that only the best of men measure up ", which is belittling. At least be honest, and answer for your words. Saying those things expose your intent.

I thought I was rather clear what my intent was, to answer the question whether or not I think a person can be a Christian and be a pacificist. My answer is yes, one can be a Christian and be a pacifist, but since I take the view that Christians, more so than any one else in society, have a God-given responsibility to uphold law and order and administer justice, I therefore consider those who refuse to accept their share of that burden to be ... shirking ("shirking - v. To avoid discharging one's duty." American Heritage Dictionary) . . . shirking their responsibility to their family, friends, neighbors, countrymen, and God. However, before you criticize me too harshly for judging consider this . . . what does it say about your judgment of my loved ones and friends who are even now waging this war that you are convinced is "unjust."
In Christ,
Deborah

 

[JustChristian]

Hello Steven2006,

>You claim that someone holding to their beliefs are "shirking" their responsibility, which is judging them, then said "but perhaps one that only the best of men measure up ", which is belittling. At least be honest, and answer for your words. Saying those things expose your intent.

I thought I was rather clear what my intent was, to answer the question whether or not I think a person can be a Christian and be a pacificist. My answer is yes, one can be a Christian and be a pacifist, but since I take the view that Christians, more so than any one else in society, have a God-given responsibility to uphold law and order and administer justice, I therefore consider those who refuse to accept their share of that burden to be ... shirking ("shirking - v. To avoid discharging one's duty." American Heritage Dictionary) . . . shirking their responsibility to their family, friends, neighbors, countrymen, and God. However, before you criticize me too harshly for judging consider this . . . what does it say about your judgment of my loved ones and friends who are even now waging this war that you are convinced is "unjust."
In Christ,
Deborah

It says that your loved ones followed the law which told them to go to Iraq and fight in this war. No more and no less. In many ways those who choose to not follow the law are the real hero's. They risk a lot to follow their conscience by standing up against an unjust war waged by a President who is not supported by the majority of Americans.

 

[steveo]

The shooting in colorado is a sad but real life example of what many here have talked about. The pastor said the women security guard saved hundreds of lives by killing this shooter.
Would you pacifist of done the same thing?

 

[Pilgrimer]

>before you criticize me too harshly for judging consider this . . . what does it say about your judgment of my loved ones and friends who are even now waging this war that you are convinced is "unjust."

>It says that your loved ones followed the law which told them to go to Iraq and fight in this war. No more and no less.

You honestly have no idea how insulting that is, do you?

 

[JustChristian]

>before you criticize me too harshly for judging consider this . . . what does it say about your judgment of my loved ones and friends who are even now waging this war that you are convinced is "unjust."

>It says that your loved ones followed the law which told them to go to Iraq and fight in this war. No more and no less.

You honestly have no idea how insulting that is, do you?

Do you have any idea how insulting what you say is? Christians have the right and responsibility to interpret the Bible for themselves. Mine is a well thought out and deeply held position for almost 40 years. How dare you talk about those who refuse to fight in an unjust war as shirking their responsibility? WWII would have been much different for me than were Viet Nam and Bush's invasion of Iraq. You have the right to your view. Join the military. I have the right to mine and I'll feel comfortable standing in front of Christ at the judgement discussing why I held that view.

 

[DHK]

In light of this discussion perhaps it would be good to get some comments on this recent incident:

At about that moment, a female guard with a drawn handgun turned a corner and walked toward the gunman and yelled "Surrender!" Bourbonnais said.
The gunman pointed a handgun at the woman and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round.

The female guard fired off about a dozen shots.
After the gunman went down, Bourbonnais asked the woman, who has only been identified as a volunteer security guard with the church, how she remained so calm and focused.

Bourbonnais said she replied:
"I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=45452

 

[JustChristian]

In light of this discussion perhaps it would be good to get some comments on this recent incident:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=45452

My answer would be in the form of a question. Under what circumstances is abortion acceptable? This is the same question you're asking. If you believe in the sanctity of life, which I do, any taking of another life needs to be justified. I would say that abortion is justified when the mother's life is at risk. Basically it's a question of one life versus another. In the case you raise it's a question of one life versus many evehn those ultimate the shooter killed himself. There was no way of knowing that so the policewoman was morally justified in shooting him.

 

[DHK]

ultimate the shooter killed himself. There was no way of knowing that so the policewoman was morally justified in shooting him.

That is somewhat up for debate. ABC reports that female guard's shot were fatal. Even though the shooter turned a gun on himself it would have made no difference. He would have died anyway.

 

[Pilgrimer]

>Mine is a well thought out and deeply held position

And at no time have I suggested otherwise. Indeed, I have done you the courtesy of assuming that your views, wrong as I believe them to be, are at least made in good faith based on your moral convictions. When you suggest that me and my loved ones, and multiplied thousands like us, participate in a war in which we will have to take the lives of others, and maybe even lose our own, for you to claim that we do so not because of any true moral conviction but rather we simply "followed the law . . . no more, and no less" then you cross the line from criticizing our views to criticizing our hearts and motives, something which you know absolutely nothing about and have no right to judge.

Question the morality of war, or question the justification of a particular war, and even question and criticize our participation in that war, that is the purpose of debate and the nature of disagreement, but do not insult my integrity by suggesting that my view is any less "moral" than your own.

In Christ,
Deborah

P.S. If you honestly believe that the purpose of the Viet Nam war was simply to “kill North Vietnamese” then I can understand why you opposed it. But I believe there was a much bigger picture going on there and so, obviously, I disagree with you . . . ditto on the struggle in Iraq.

 

[Rubato 1]

I'll gladly be a pacifist when everyone those who pose a threat to my home and family become so also.
I wouldn't even live on the Pacific Ocean.


(Maybe right next to it, but not on it.)

 

[JustChristian]

I'll gladly be a pacifist when everyone those who pose a threat to my home and family become so also.
I wouldn't even live on the Pacific Ocean.


(Maybe right next to it, but not on it.)

How does your view match with Christ's command?
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 

[JustChristian]

>Mine is a well thought out and deeply held position

And at no time have I suggested otherwise. Indeed, I have done you the courtesy of assuming that your views, wrong as I believe them to be, are at least made in good faith based on your moral convictions. When you suggest that me and my loved ones, and multiplied thousands like us, participate in a war in which we will have to take the lives of others, and maybe even lose our own, for you to claim that we do so not because of any true moral conviction but rather we simply "followed the law . . . no more, and no less" then you cross the line from criticizing our views to criticizing our hearts and motives, something which you know absolutely nothing about and have no right to judge.

Question the morality of war, or question the justification of a particular war, and even question and criticize our participation in that war, that is the purpose of debate and the nature of disagreement, but do not insult my integrity by suggesting that my view is any less "moral" than your own.

In Christ,
Deborah

P.S. If you honestly believe that the purpose of the Viet Nam war was simply to “kill North Vietnamese” then I can understand why you opposed it. But I believe there was a much bigger picture going on there and so, obviously, I disagree with you . . . ditto on the struggle in Iraq.

Do you support abortions in the U.S.? If not do you believe that your view is morally superior to those who do support them? We're talking about the same thing, the Sanctity of human life. Do I consider a position which uphols this position as morally superior to one that does not? Of course.

 

[just-want-peace]

Do you support abortions in the U.S.? If not do you believe that your view is morally superior to those who do support them? We're talking about the same thing, the Sanctity of human life. Do I consider a position which uphols this position as morally superior to one that does not? Of course.

BB, it strongly appears that somebody in your past managed to get a burr under your saddle, and you're taking out your revenge on anybody who doesn't march in lockstep with you!

Cool it man, lighten up and don't take yourself so seriously, or every disagreement as a challenge to your integrity.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Two points:

First, there is a difference in your saying my position is morally inferior to yours . . . and your saying that my position is not based on moral convictions. The first I have no problem with and expect you to feel that way, but the second is out of bounds.

Second, whose life is more "sacred" . . . that of our enemies or the innocent men, women and children they intentionally target and slaughter?

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Rubato 1]

How does your view match with Christ's command?
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Well, to be truthful, there are two arguments in this thread. One is on a personal level, the other on a national level. Since I enjoined on the personal level though...
You can smite me if you like. You cannot smite my wife or children.
You can take my cloak if you like. You cannot endanger my family.
you can force me to go a mile, you cannot my wife.
You can persecute and despitefully use me, but not mine.
See?
If any man provide not for his own, especially those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.:thumbs:

 

[JustChristian]

Two points:

First, there is a difference in your saying my position is morally inferior to yours . . . and your saying that my position is not based on moral convictions. The first I have no problem with and expect you to feel that way, but the second is out of bounds.

Second, whose life is more "sacred" . . . that of our enemies or the innocent men, women and children they intentionally target and slaughter?

In Christ,
Deborah

I haven't really characterized your position as morally inferior to mine. Remember that this began with your statement that you found my statement about what I believe extremely insulting. I responded with the same statement about your statement. I believe that everyone has to determine for themselves what they believe. I've come to believe that being very much against abortion but in favor of war, a lack of gun control, and capital punishment strikes me as hypocritical. That's my belief. I'm not forcing anyone else to accept it. Whose life is more sacred?

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

All human life if precious to Him.

 

[Rubato 1]

I've come to believe that being very much against abortion but in favor of war, a lack of gun control, and capital punishment strikes me as hypocritical.

All human life if precious to Him.

How can you justify this view with David, for example? He was a warrior known for slaying his "10,000's," and as a "man after God's own heart." Those who performed the ancient equivelent of abortion (offering their young to the god of fire, not the god of convenience or lust) were under the judgement of God also.

The Israelites of Gideon's day were under tribute because they had no weapons. If you can't understand that and the Constitution, no one here can help you. I don't say that to be mean, just to be honest.

As for Capital punishment, this is laid out in Genesis as a principle of holiness in society.

Things are very unhypocritical when they line up precisely with scripture.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello BaptistBeliever,

>I haven't really characterized your position as morally inferior to mine.

True, you haven't, and it wouldn't bother me if you did, I would expect you to feel that way, I expect everyone to feel that way if their view on a particular issue is based on their moral convictions about it. But what offended me was your statement that my husband went to Iraq not because of any moral convictions at all, as if he didn't have any or had not considered any, but simply because he was following the law . . . "no more, no less." You are free to question, criticize and judge the rightness or wrongness of his actions, but you have no right to state that his actions are not based on his moral convictions, every bit as much as yours are.

>I believe that everyone has to determine for themselves what they believe.

I agree. The way I express that view it is that "all men should be free to live according to the dictates of their own conscience, within the bounds of law and order."

>I've come to believe that being very much against abortion but in favor of war, a lack of gun control, and capital punishment strikes me as hypocritical.

I disagree with you and this is why. I do not believe there is a moral equivalence between the life of an innocent, helpless unborn child and the life of a bloody dictator who abuses, maims and kills the innocent for the sake of power and wealth; or the life of a man who sexually abuses and murders little children; or the fanatic who thinks mass murder is an act of godly devotion. There is no moral equivalence between good and evil, between the innocent and the guilty, between an unborn babe and a cold-blooded killer.

>Whose life is more sacred? . . . Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him . . . All human life if precious to Him.

I disagree with your exegesis of that passage, which in truth argues against your view. That passage does not say that all life is “accepted” with God, but only those that “feareth him, and worketh righteousness” are accepted with God.

But lest I be found arguing that human life is not precious to God, and I would never say that, what I will say is that even though human life is precious to God, the day will come when he will judge the world and will execute capital punishment against all those whose deeds are evil.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[JustChristian]

Hello BaptistBeliever,

>I haven't really characterized your position as morally inferior to mine.

True, you haven't, and it wouldn't bother me if you did, I would expect you to feel that way, I expect everyone to feel that way if their view on a particular issue is based on their moral convictions about it. But what offended me was your statement that my husband went to Iraq not because of any moral convictions at all, as if he didn't have any or had not considered any, but simply because he was following the law . . . "no more, no less." You are free to question, criticize and judge the rightness or wrongness of his actions, but you have no right to state that his actions are not based on his moral convictions, every bit as much as yours are.

>I believe that everyone has to determine for themselves what they believe.

I agree. The way I express that view it is that "all men should be free to live according to the dictates of their own conscience, within the bounds of law and order."

>I've come to believe that being very much against abortion but in favor of war, a lack of gun control, and capital punishment strikes me as hypocritical.

I disagree with you and this is why. I do not believe there is a moral equivalence between the life of an innocent, helpless unborn child and the life of a bloody dictator who abuses, maims and kills the innocent for the sake of power and wealth; or the life of a man who sexually abuses and murders little children; or the fanatic who thinks mass murder is an act of godly devotion. There is no moral equivalence between good and evil, between the innocent and the guilty, between an unborn babe and a cold-blooded killer.

>Whose life is more sacred? . . . Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him . . . All human life if precious to Him.

I disagree with your exegesis of that passage, which in truth argues against your view. That passage does not say that all life is “accepted” with God, but only those that “feareth him, and worketh righteousness” are accepted with God.

But lest I be found arguing that human life is not precious to God, and I would never say that, what I will say is that even though human life is precious to God, the day will come when he will judge the world and will execute capital punishment against all those whose deeds are evil.

In Christ,
Deborah

Was your husband already in the Army or the National Guard? If so, not to obey orders to go to Iraq would have been against the law. Isn't that true?

 

[JustChristian]

Dear Pilgrimer,

It bothers me a great deal that I'v taken this time when your husband and friends are in harm's way to talk about a questionable belief of mine which is also no doubt impacted by politics as well. I sincerely apologize. I will pray that your loved ones return safely and that you can find it in your heart to forgive me,

I wish for you and yours a Christmas full of the joy of our Lord and the hope and faith to support you during those long nights before your husband is with you again.