Should A Christian Be a Pacifist?

[Palatka51]

When the major theme of the NT is love, can we really say that there is ever a time to hate--a time hateful enough to kill one another?

Let me clear something up about myself and an event that has shaped my adult life.
One day at school, between classes, I was walking the aisle to my next class. A class mate of mine slapped me in the chest knocking the books and papers I was caring onto the grass then he proceeded to kick and scatter them. As I scrambled to regather them he, with his fellows, walked away laughing. I was humiliated but I prayed for him. I was but 14 years of age and did not like what had been done to me. My next prayer was for God to kill me because I did not like myself. I never prayed for his harm but for his heart.
Several days past and I had to go to the boys room. He was there at the door with his gang and they followed me in. Again the books were scattered but this time he put me in a choke hold and proceeded to try to put my head in a urinal. He did not succeed. I did not kick, I did not call out, I did not let fists fly. I simply braced myself and said "May God forgive you Kenny". He could not, try though he did, get so much as a hair wet. I realized that I was actually stronger than he was. He gave up and with a confused look walked out.
Two months latter he fell out of a deer stand and blew off his right leg at the knee. He would have died of blood loss if a local Doctor that was hunting near by had not have heard and seen what had happened. He rush to his aid and got him to the hospital. I visited him there and talked with him.
When he returned to school he never bothered me again.
Years later I had just started working for Coca Cola and was between stores and looked over at a road side prison work detail and I could not believe mine eyes there was Kenny working a sling blade.
I do not regret the way I responded to this bully and God truly defended me. I am a 50 year old man now and I have had to physically defend my self on many occasions and on others I have been passive. Upon each stance whether passive or physical God has gotten me through each situation.
May His Name be praised!

 

[Pilgrimer]

Romans 13:1-7
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Looking at verse 4 there are times when an evil regime has usurped the Godly authority and there is no other choice but for a righteous nation to rise up and bring that regime to justice. Our forefathers wrestled with this question as they were petitioning King George.
If the nation calls for a defense who are they going to call to minister the sword to the evil doer another malefactor? It is the duty of a citizen to answer the call for national defense.
Should a Christian be a Judge? Yes
Should a Christian be a Policeman? Yes
Should a Christian be a Politician of a city, county, state or national? Yes
Should a Christian serve on Jury duty? Yes
These are not pacifists positions and if your answer is no then who is going to minister Godly justice?

Amen!
If you define pacifism as 1) The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully . . .
Then I would expect all Christians, and in fact all right-thinking people of sound mind, would agree with that. It is the desired path for all nations to seek to regress differences amicably. Who in their right mind would not want that? The problem is, there are those out there who, whether they are of sound mind or not I do not know but I suspect not, who do not want to settle disputes peacefully . . . they want to conquer their neighbors and bring them (and their wealth and power) into submission to their own oppressive rule . . . by whatever means necessary, including violence. The unfortunate history of this present world we live in has provided ample proof of that hard lesson. Even now there are those who gather in their dark councils and plot the subjection and destruction of others, and spend their wealth to acquire that "sword" that will quench their thirst!

The only time Jesus ever became really angry, was when he saw the weak being preyed upon by the strong. But lest you think Jesus is a pacifist consider, it is Jesus before whom the nations will one day stand, and those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be . . . destroyed body and soul. Jesus didn't resist the things that were done to him not because he was a pacifist, but because those were the things he came to fulfill. He told the disciples to put up their swords not because he is a pacifist, but because his kingdom isn't a worldly kingdom that can be won at the point of a sword. And he didn't say for good men of sound mind to stand by and watch evil go unchecked and unpunished resulting in the complete break down of law and order and plunging the world into anarchy. He gave men of good mind and peaceable intentions the responsibility to stand against evil and be light and salt and when necessary exercise the authority to arrest and/or execute justice against those who destroy the public peace and security. The Gospel does not preclude law and order.

But if you define pacifism as 2) Opposition to war demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action . . .
I would suggest such pacifism is shirking a heavy responsibility that rightly belongs to all good men, but perhaps one that only the best of men measure up to.

I support our troops, may God bless and keep them! (yellow ribbon)

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Palatka51]

As far as war, just for a moment could you imagine if every Christian in all the world would stand up and say no killing, but love for our enemies no matter what the cost? Yes, there would be some martyrs, but just imaging the witness to the world? There could possibly be a revival that this world has never seen.

I think that this is what the response of most Christians will be. However having to defend oneself, I like you would not judge another as to how he handles himself.

Plus I have faith in God, that he will protect, us, I don't put any limits on Him, but if it is his will that I must die, for Him, I gladly will.

As would I Brother, as would I.

 

[steveo]

I messed up the quotes so I will just say that we should be loving like Jesus but there are times we have to defend loved ones, country, family, etc..I can't imagine telling a policeman to not carry a gun but pray and let God defend you. God can defend, but sometimes he uses us.

 

[Palatka51]

I messed up the quotes so I will just say that we should be loving like Jesus but there are times we have to defend loved ones, country, family, etc..I can't imagine telling a policeman to not carry a gun but pray and let God defend you. God can defend, but sometimes he uses us.

I'm with you on this one SteveO.

 

[Steven2006]

But if you define pacifism as 2) Opposition to war demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action . . .
I would suggest such pacifism is shirking a heavy responsibility that rightly belongs to all good men, but perhaps one that only the best of men measure up to.

You think it correct to both judge and belittle your brothers in Christ, just for them trying their utmost to best follow Christ Jesus as they believe?

 

[Steven2006]

I messed up the quotes so I will just say that we should be loving like Jesus but there are times we have to defend loved ones, country, family, etc..I can't imagine telling a policeman to not carry a gun but pray and let God defend you. God can defend, but sometimes he uses us.

I appreciate how you feel I really do, my very best friend whom I grew up with was a policeman his entire career, and he is a Godly man. I don't judge him or any brother for his convictions. But if we are to imagine, such things, we have to go back and imagine how things might be if every Christian for all time had refused to kill. Maybe the path of the world would have been different, we just cannot know these things.

 

[Pilgrimer]

>You think it correct to both judge and belittle your brothers in Christ, just for them trying their utmost to best follow Christ Jesus as they believe?

No sir! I think it correct to both honor and praise those who live out the greater love of laying down their lives for their friends.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Steven2006]

>You think it correct to both judge and belittle your brothers in Christ, just for them trying their utmost to best follow Christ Jesus as they believe?

No sir! I think it correct to both honor and praise those who live out the greater love of laying down their lives for their friends.

In Christ,
Deborah

Nobody suggested you shouldn't honor and praise them. Can you only do that by judging and belittling others in the process? That's a real shame.

 

[JustChristian]

Amen!
If you define pacifism as 1) The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully . . .
Then I would expect all Christians, and in fact all right-thinking people of sound mind, would agree with that. It is the desired path for all nations to seek to regress differences amicably. Who in their right mind would not want that? The problem is, there are those out there who, whether they are of sound mind or not I do not know but I suspect not, who do not want to settle disputes peacefully . . . they want to conquer their neighbors and bring them (and their wealth and power) into submission to their own oppressive rule . . . by whatever means necessary, including violence. The unfortunate history of this present world we live in has provided ample proof of that hard lesson. Even now there are those who gather in their dark councils and plot the subjection and destruction of others, and spend their wealth to acquire that "sword" that will quench their thirst!

The only time Jesus ever became really angry, was when he saw the weak being preyed upon by the strong. But lest you think Jesus is a pacifist consider, it is Jesus before whom the nations will one day stand, and those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be . . . destroyed body and soul. Jesus didn't resist the things that were done to him not because he was a pacifist, but because those were the things he came to fulfill. He told the disciples to put up their swords not because he is a pacifist, but because his kingdom isn't a worldly kingdom that can be won at the point of a sword. And he didn't say for good men of sound mind to stand by and watch evil go unchecked and unpunished resulting in the complete break down of law and order and plunging the world into anarchy. He gave men of good mind and peaceable intentions the responsibility to stand against evil and be light and salt and when necessary exercise the authority to arrest and/or execute justice against those who destroy the public peace and security. The Gospel does not preclude law and order.

But if you define pacifism as 2) Opposition to war demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action . . .
I would suggest such pacifism is shirking a heavy responsibility that rightly belongs to all good men, but perhaps one that only the best of men measure up to.

I support our troops, may God bless and keep them! (yellow ribbon)

In Christ,
Deborah

Have you ever faced being drafted into a war that you considered unjust? I think not but I have. Do you believe that every war the US happens to get involved in is worth your losing your life or your son or daughter losing their lives? Have you ever volunteered for the military? If all your answers are no then you don't any idea what you're talking about.

 

[HankD]

You leap frog from family to to nation in one jump. You go from standing in defence of your wife to firing nuclear missiles or dropping the atomic bomb as they did to end WWII and killing countless of innocent civilians. You go from defending a child to dropping cluster bombs taking out entire villages of innocent people. How can you make such a comparison.

In days of old, a Godly man would simply say: "to get to my wife and children you will have to go through me first." But he would not use a weapon. Some would resist physically and others would simply pray. Often the power of prayer was enough to turn away their enemy.

Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Yes, the innocent often suffer not only with the advent of war but at the hand of God:

Genesis 6

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

...

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Yes, men women and children were destroyed at the hand of God in the flood.

True, we are living in the age of grace and the invitation has been extended to all men everywhere to repent:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


but God in His essential nature has not changed,
There are two areas of His character which have not changed: His holiness and His mercy.

His mercy and grace have a limit which He Himself has set.
When men (individually or collectively) shed man's blood, He has given a solution : " Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man".

In addition, we have not yet seen the ultimate of God's judgment upon mankind. Read the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ concerning the "wrath of the Lamb".

Jesus and His apostles warned people everywhere to flee the wrath to come and those awful things which precede His Second Coming.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So while I personaly put into practice and prefer the follwoing lifestyle

KJV Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men

I also subcribe to (when all else fails) :
​

 

[HankD]

You leap frog from family to to nation in one jump. You go from standing in defence of your wife to firing nuclear missiles or dropping the atomic bomb as they did to end WWII and killing countless of innocent civilians. You go from defending a child to dropping cluster bombs taking out entire villages of innocent people. How can you make such a comparison.

In days of old, a Godly man would simply say: "to get to my wife and children you will have to go through me first." But he would not use a weapon. Some would resist physically and others would simply pray. Often the power of prayer was enough to turn away their enemy.

Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Yes, the innocent often suffer not only with the advent of war but at the hand of God:

Genesis 6

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

...

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Yes, men women and children were destroyed at the hand of God in the flood.

True, we are living in the age of grace and the invitation has been extended to all men everywhere to repent:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


but God in His essential nature has not changed,
There are two areas of His character which have not changed: His holiness and His mercy.

His mercy and grace have a limit which He Himself has set.
When men (individually or collectively) shed man's blood, He has given a solution : " Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man".

In addition, we have not yet seen the ultimate of God's judgment upon mankind. Read the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ concerning the "wrath of the Lamb".

Jesus and His apostles warned people everywhere to flee the wrath to come and those awful things which precede His Second Coming.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So while I personaly put into practice and prefer the follwoing lifestyle

KJV Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men

I also subcribe to (when all else fails) :
​

 

[HankD]

You leap frog from family to to nation in one jump. You go from standing in defence of your wife to firing nuclear missiles or dropping the atomic bomb as they did to end WWII and killing countless of innocent civilians. You go from defending a child to dropping cluster bombs taking out entire villages of innocent people. How can you make such a comparison.

In days of old, a Godly man would simply say: "to get to my wife and children you will have to go through me first." But he would not use a weapon. Some would resist physically and others would simply pray. Often the power of prayer was enough to turn away their enemy.

Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Yes, the innocent often suffer not only with the advent of war but at the hand of God:


Genesis 6

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.​

...​

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.​

Yes, men women and children were destroyed at the hand of God in the flood.​

Also at the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah.

True, we are living in the age of grace and the invitation has been extended to all men everywhere to repent:​

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:​

but God in His essential nature has not changed,
There are two areas of His character which have not changed: His holiness and His mercy.​

We who live in this age forget this very important aspect of the nature and character of God.​

His mercy and grace have a limit which He Himself has set.
When men (individually or collectively) shed man's blood, He has given a solution : " Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man".​

In addition, we have not yet seen the ultimate of God's judgment upon mankind. Read the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ concerning the "wrath of the Lamb".​

One day His long-suffering will reach that limit and then will come His wrath.

Jesus and His apostles warned people everywhere to flee the wrath to come and those awful things which precede His Second Coming.​

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!​

So while I personaly put into practice and prefer the following lifestyle​

KJV Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men​

I also subcribe to (when all else fails) :​

Romans 13
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.​

The Romans 13 passage uses the word "terror".
If those who are terrorists refuse to cease their evil deeds then I for one will volunteer (and have volunteered) to be the "minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."​

Yes, the innocent do sometimes suffer such as the children of the Genesis flood or those vaporized in Nagasaki and Hiroshima and that is sad.​

But shed the blood of my family or the citizens of my nation then there are myriads of us who know their duty and will do it.​

HankD​

 

[Palatka51]

Does anyone on this thread remember the story of the WWI hero, Seargent Alvin York?

 

[Palatka51]

True, we are living in the age of grace and the invitation has been extended to all men everywhere to repent:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Also note that after the call to repentance great wrath has always come from God. Right now all of the world is under the call to repent as per Acts 17:30. Now the wrath of God that is soon to come will be worse than has ever been seen.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Steven2006,

>Nobody suggested you shouldn't honor and praise them. Can you only do that by judging and belittling others in the process? That's a real shame.

I don't think stating my belief that the American soldier is the best, the bravest, the most noble, and the most humane among our citizenry, nay, among all the nations of the world . . . is "belittling" to others.

What I did say is that the responsibility of being a judge, jury and executioner (whether the execution of that judgment is imprisonment or death) is a heavy responsibility that no one really wants to accept but most do so out of a sense of duty and commitment to their community. My view is that I cannot think of anyone I would rather entrust with such a solemn duty than a man or woman of God. I cannot imagine a pacifist world where men and women of God did not report for duty and our law enforcement agencies (incuding the military) and courts were given over to men and women who lack the wisdom and counsel of God.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Palatka51]

Hello Steven2006,

>Nobody suggested you shouldn't honor and praise them. Can you only do that by judging and belittling others in the process? That's a real shame.

I don't think stating my belief that the American soldier is the best, the bravest, the most noble, and the most humane among our citizenry, nay, among all the nations of the world . . . is "belittling" to others.

What I did say is that the responsibility of being a judge, jury and executioner (whether the execution of that judgment is imprisonment or death) is a heavy responsibility that no one really wants to accept but most do so out of a sense of duty and commitment to their community. My view is that I cannot think of anyone I would rather entrust with such a solemn duty than a man or woman of God. I cannot imagine a pacifist world where men and women of God did not report for duty and our law enforcement agencies (incuding the military) and courts were given over to men and women who lack the wisdom and counsel of God.

In Christ,
Deborah

:applause: :applause: :applause: Three cheers for sure.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello BaptistBeliever,

>Have you ever faced being drafted into a war that you considered unjust?

No.

>I think not but I have.

I am sorry to hear that. I cannot imagine how difficult that must be. But our laws do provide relief for those in such a situation; one can apply for “Conscientious Objector” status that allows one to serve their country in a non-combat position. And if I was convinced that I could not in good conscience participate in any way in an endeavor that I believed to be unjust, I would be willing to suffer the consequences of such a decision, and I would go to jail and serve my time with honor counting the time served as my service to my country. And if I really had a pure heart I would probably spend that time fasting and praying for those young men and women who are in the dangerous process of laying down their lives that I might have the right to object to war in peace . . .

>Do you believe that every war the US happens to get involved in is worth your losing your life or your son or daughter losing their lives?

So far the only war America has fought that I feel was a terrible and tragic mistake was the Civil War. And I blame the South for having initiated the violence by firing that first shot upon our own soil. And mind you, my great-grandfather fought for the South in that war, stationed at a fort that is within 25 miles of where I sit at this moment. He was 12 years old. And I am registered with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, a Southern heritage society . . . so please understand that my views on war are the fruit of much personal soul-searching, and they have been hard won.

>Have you ever volunteered for the military?

No. But my husband is serving his second tour in Iraq as we speak. Does that count? and I have 5 close relatives who have/are serving in Afghanistan/Iraq and 3 which have served and returned home safely; 2 of the boys my son grew up with are currently serving and 3 have returned home safely, including a Ranger . . . Thank God for it!

>If all your answers are no then you don’t any idea what you’re talking about.

Have you ever served in the military?

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Steven2006]

Hello Steven2006,

>Nobody suggested you shouldn't honor and praise them. Can you only do that by judging and belittling others in the process? That's a real shame.

I don't think stating my belief that the American soldier is the best, the bravest, the most noble, and the most humane among our citizenry, nay, among all the nations of the world . . . is "belittling" to others.

I quoted the part where you did.

I would suggest such pacifism is shirking a heavy responsibility that rightly belongs to all good men, but perhaps one that only the best of men measure up to.

You claim that someone holding to their beliefs are "shirking" their responsibility, which is judging them, then said "but perhaps one that only the best of men measure up ", which is belittling. At least be honest, and answer for your words. Saying those things expose your intent.

 

[JustChristian]

Hello BaptistBeliever,

>Have you ever faced being drafted into a war that you considered unjust?

No.

>I think not but I have.

I am sorry to hear that. I cannot imagine how difficult that must be. But our laws do provide relief for those in such a situation; one can apply for “Conscientious Objector” status that allows one to serve their country in a non-combat position. And if I was convinced that I could not in good conscience participate in any way in an endeavor that I believed to be unjust, I would be willing to suffer the consequences of such a decision, and I would go to jail and serve my time with honor counting the time served as my service to my country. And if I really had a pure heart I would probably spend that time fasting and praying for those young men and women who are in the dangerous process of laying down their lives that I might have the right to object to war in peace . . .

>Do you believe that every war the US happens to get involved in is worth your losing your life or your son or daughter losing their lives?

So far the only war America has fought that I feel was a terrible and tragic mistake was the Civil War. And I blame the South for having initiated the violence by firing that first shot upon our own soil. And mind you, my great-grandfather fought for the South in that war, stationed at a fort that is within 25 miles of where I sit at this moment. He was 12 years old. And I am registered with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, a Southern heritage society . . . so please understand that my views on war are the fruit of much personal soul-searching, and they have been hard won.

>Have you ever volunteered for the military?

No. But my husband is serving his second tour in Iraq as we speak. Does that count? and I have 5 close relatives who have/are serving in Afghanistan/Iraq and 3 which have served and returned home safely; 2 of the boys my son grew up with are currently serving and 3 have returned home safely, including a Ranger . . . Thank God for it!

>If all your answers are no then you don’t any idea what you’re talking about.

Have you ever served in the military?

In Christ,
Deborah

Did your husband sign up after the war started or enlist as a National Guardsman and then found out that he was going to war, something he never could have foreseen? The choice then would be to go to Iraq or go AWOL. Do you believe that Christians should support ANY war the U.S. decides to enter (or to start)? Should a Christian fight in an unjust war? Personally, I didn't support the war in Viet Nam. I also would have not supported Bush's war in Iraq. I would have supported and fought in WWII. I also think Afghanastan started out as a just war but after this administration "cut and ran" from that war I wonder whether it was justified either.

My decision not to go to Viet Nam enabled decades of opportunity to serve the Lord. Then, and now, I consider that much more important than killing North Vietnamese. I ended up failing the physical on a real (and painful) shoulder injury. If that hadn't been the case I would have tried the alternatives you suggested.