Should a good Christian be patriotic?

[OldRegular]

Old, where did Jesus use the word abortion?

As I have said, I am against abortion, but I know of no place where Jesus uses the word in any way.

I realize that you have little regard for the authority of Scripture Crabtownboy so I an sure you will deny the validity of the following which I posted earlier and of which Jesus Christ is the Author.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16. These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19. A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Consider the following four of seven, crabtownboy, for which you stand guilty!

a lying tongue

hands that shed innocent blood

A false witness that speaketh lies

he that soweth discord among brethren.

But he did talk about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, visiting those in jail.

Yes He did, but he was telling us how to live as followers of Him. He said nothing about the government taking money from working people and giving it away.

Jesus Christ tells us through the Apostle Paul:

2 Thessalonians 3:10. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

1 Timothy 5:8. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Now it seems to me that you are in total denial of what the LORD Jesus Christ is telling us here Crabtownboy. If you want to take money out of your pocket and give it to people who are too lazy to work then that is your right in this country.

Jesus Christ also said:Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. [Luke 18:16]

Now the LORD Jesus Christ did not mean we were to speed them on the way as you and the "party of death" insist.

 

[OldRegular]

It is up to you to prove your point. After all silence gives consent and Jesus did not speak about governments in this way. No need to as it would have been a totally confusing issue to those alive back then.

That is pure nonsense Crabtownboy. At the time the LORD Jesus Christ was on earth Rome was entertaining the masses by having slaves fight to the death in the "Circus". The LORD Jesus Christ never mentioned this so using your inane logic that "silence gives consent" you would claim that the LORD Jesus Christ approved this slaughter. Again using your stupid logic that "silence gives consent" and your assertion in an earlier post that the LORD Jesus Christ never mentioned abortion you can claim that He supports the slaughter of the unborn!

I know he taught how we are to care for each other ... so it is a logical extension to say that Jesus would approve of government helping people.

Show me where he said anything to disprove this.

That is a totally false conclusion Crabtownboy but one that is consistent with your leftist ideology. The LORD Jesus Christ told us: And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s. [Luke 20:25]

Again using your twisted logic you are saying that the LORD Jesus Christ approved anything that the Roman government did or does. Yet your are quick to condemn those who believe the government, under our Constitution, has the right to execute those who commit heinous offenses.

 

[OldRegular]

So -- do you think Jesus would have opposed abortion?

He has stated previously that His "silence gives consent" so perhaps Crabtownboy believes He approves abortion.

 

[Crabtownboy]

He has stated previously that His "silence gives consent" so perhaps Crabtownboy believes He approves abortion.

Did not say that. I did say as far as we know Christ did not speak for or against abortion.

Did abortion exist during Jesus days on earth. Yes, there was. A drink causing a fetus to be aborted was given to the woman. At some point, I do not know when, this became illegal under Roman law. Did that stop the practice. No.

 

[Crabtownboy]

That is so stupid Crabtownboy. At the time the LORD Jesus Christ was on earth Rome was entertaining the masses by having slaves fight to the death in the "Circus". The LORD Jesus Christ never mentioned this so using your inane logic that "silence gives consent" you would claim that the LORD Jesus Christ approved this slaughter.

Nope, didn't say that. I said as far as we know he did not speak to the issue of abortion. But we know for sure he spoke a lot about how we are to teach each other.

Again using your stupid logic that "silence gives consent" and your assertion in an earlier post that the LORD Jesus Christ never mentioned abortion you can claim that He supports the slaughter of the unborn!

Wrong again. I said as far as we know he did not speak to the issue of abortion. But we know for sure he spoke a lot about how we are to teach each other.



That is a totally false conclusion Crabtownboy but one that is consistent with your leftist ideology. The LORD Jesus Christ told us: And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s. [Luke 20:25]

Again using your twisted logic you are saying that the LORD Jesus Christ approved anything that the Roman government did or does. Yet your are quick to condemn those who believe the government, under our Constitution, has the right to execute those who commit heinous offenses.

By your own quote then, if Caesar says pay for helping the poor, the elderly, the ill then you are to do so by rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
That is so stupid Crabtownboy. At the time the LORD Jesus Christ was on earth Rome was entertaining the masses by having slaves fight to the death in the "Circus". The LORD Jesus Christ never mentioned this so using your inane logic that "silence gives consent" you would claim that the LORD Jesus Christ approved this slaughter.

Did not say that. I did say as far as we know Christ did not speak for or against abortion.

Nope, didn't say that. I said as far as we know he did not speak to the issue of abortion.

I reference your post #178 in response to TND, the emphasis is mine:

It is up to you to prove your point. After all silence gives consent and Jesus did not speak about governments in this way. No need to as it would have been a totally confusing issue to those alive back then. I know he taught how we are to care for each other ... so it is a logical extension to say that Jesus would approve of government helping people.

Show me where he said anything to disprove this.

Did abortion exist during Jesus days on earth. Yes, there was. A drink causing a fetus to be aborted was given to the woman. At some point, I do not know when, this became illegal under Roman law. Did that stop the practice. No.

The pagan Hippocratic oath forbade abortion yet since Roe v Wade the abortuaries, many operated by doctors professing to be Christians, have slaughtered 56,000,000 unborn children.

Hippocratic Oath

I swear by Apollo the physician, and Asclepius, and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses as my witnesses, that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this contract:

To hold him who taught me this art equally dear to me as my parents, to be a partner in life with him, and to fulfill his needs when required; to look upon his offspring as equals to my own siblings, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or contract; and that by the set rules, lectures, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to students bound by this contract and having sworn this Oath to the law of medicine, but to no others.

I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgement, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

In purity and according to divine law will I carry out my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, even upon those suffering from stones, but I will leave this to those who are trained in this craft.

Into whatever homes I go, I will enter them for the benefit of the sick, avoiding any voluntary act of impropriety or corruption, including the seduction of women or men, whether they are free men or slaves.

Whatever I see or hear in the lives of my patients, whether in connection with my professional practice or not, which ought not to be spoken of outside, I will keep secret, as considering all such things to be private.

So long as I maintain this Oath faithfully and without corruption, may it be granted to me to partake of life fully and the practice of my art, gaining the respect of all men for all time. However, should I transgress this Oath and violate it, may the opposite be my fate.

Translated by Michael North, National Library of Medicine, 2002.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html

Perhaps this oath is one of the mysterious ways in which God operates. Certainly after the first paragraph there is nothing I see that is contrary to Scripture!

 

[OldRegular]

By your own quote then, if Caesar says pay for helping the poor, the elderly, the ill then you are to do so by rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

Your understanding of Scripture is beyond belief!

 

[OldRegular]

Crabtownboy, I do not doubt that there are many of us on this Forum who are at times hypocritical. But I will say this: You are universally consistent in your hypocrisy!

 

[ShagNappy]

Your understanding of Scripture is beyond belief!

Translated....

Hey kettle, this is pot. Um, You're black!

:thumbs:

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Good post. What do you think of churches that have "Patriotic Sunday" Sunday services? Usually around Fourth of July.

I'm careful with them. It's great to be American, but church is church. I'd rather just thank God we can worship freely, still.

 

[OldRegular]

I'm careful with them. It's great to be American, but church is church. I'd rather just thank God we can worship freely, still.

I agree wholeheartedly!

 

[Don]

Did not say that. I did say as far as we know Christ did not speak for or against abortion.

Did abortion exist during Jesus days on earth. Yes, there was. A drink causing a fetus to be aborted was given to the woman. At some point, I do not know when, this became illegal under Roman law. Did that stop the practice. No.

According to some ancient literature, Romulus outlawed abortion (so from Rome's earliest beginnings). And if you're going to invoke ancient Rome, then it's worthwhile to consider that ancient Jews also condemned abortion.

That said, your statements don't answer the question. Do you think Jesus would be for or against abortion?

 

[Crabtownboy]

According to some ancient literature, Romulus outlawed abortion (so from Rome's earliest beginnings). And if you're going to invoke ancient Rome, then it's worthwhile to consider that ancient Jews also condemned abortion.

That said, your statements don't answer the question. Do you think Jesus would be for or against abortion?

He probably would have been against it, but not if the of the mother was at stake. We see that from the only verse in the Bible that can remotely be interpreted as including abortion.

However we definitely know how he felt about how we should treat other people. Right?

 

[Revmitchell]

You cannot tell me he is against abortion. Far too many statements lead to an understanding otherwise.

 

[Don]

He probably would have been against it, but not if the of the mother was at stake. We see that from the only verse in the Bible that can remotely be interpreted as including abortion.

Just as we also know, from understanding the Jewish culture at that time, that "life of the mother" meant when the child itself was considered the reason for the threat to the mother's life.

However we definitely know how he felt about how we should treat other people. Right?

Yes, for those that needed help through no fault of their own. Just as we also know He didn't overturn the laws such as the death penalty, but came to fulfill them (He suffered the death penalty in the place of we who deserve the death penalty). Just as we know He had Paul instruct us that those who don't work, don't eat. And oh-so-much more on the subject.

-----

Why do we discuss patriotism? Because it's a matter of gratitude. I'm grateful that God allowed me to be born and live in a country that allowas us to practice our faith as we see fit. And since we don't actually live in the heavenly kingdom just yet, I'm willing to show that gratitude by obeying the laws and customs of this land, and even defend it and its citizens against those that would take those freedoms away.

 

[Zaac]

Yes, for those that needed help through no fault of their own.

I see nowhere in Scripture that Jesus says how we treat others is to be based upon whether or not their situation was self made.

People usually get in tough situations because of their choices. The poor also includes those who have made bad choices.

Just as we know He had Paul instruct us that those who don't work, don't eat. And oh-so-much more on the subject.

But He didn't say don't feed them because they haven't worked.:laugh:

-----

Why do we discuss patriotism? Because it's a matter of gratitude. I'm grateful that God allowed me to be born and live in a country that allowas us to practice our faith as we see fit. And since we don't actually live in the heavenly kingdom just yet, I'm willing to show that gratitude by obeying the laws and customs of this land, and even defend it and its citizens against those that would take those freedoms away.

AMEN!

 

[OldRegular]

Don, Revmitchell,

Crabtownboy has the Marxist mentality and that is dominant in his life; God would have to set aside natural law to change it.

He is perfectly willing to use Scripture when it suits his Marxist ideology but just as quick to discard it if it conflicts with his ideology. The very thought that a Christian would question or quibble about whether or not Jesus Christ is against the slaughter of the unborn child is blasphemous and a true indicator of Crabtownboy's character. I have noted that many mainstream "so-called Christian denominations" with the leftist mentality have voiced their support of abortion {and homosexual marriage} so Crabtownboy is not alone in his views and his support of the "party of death"!

 

[Zaac]

Crabtownboy you are a poor witness as a follower of Jesus Christ. You concede that you support the "party of death" but deny that you support the continued slaughter of the unborn.

This is ridarndiculous.

Do you remember that it was a Republican-dominated U.S. Supreme Court that legalized abortion on demand in 1973 with two monumental decisions: Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton. It was Republicans that authorized the killing of over 50 million innocent, unborn babies. Furthermore, since 1973, Republican-dominated Courts have repeatedly reaffirmed abortion-on-demand.

Roe vs Wade Supreme Court

Majority
Harry Blackmun-Penned the Majority decision. Appointed by Nixon(R).
Warren E. Burger-Appointed by Nixon(R).
William O. Douglas
William J. Brennan-Appointed by Eisenhower(R)
Potter Stewart-Appointed by Eisenhower(R).
Thurgood Marshall
Lewis Powell- Appointed by Nixon(R)

Minority
Byron White
William Rehnquist

5 of the 7 judges who approved Roe vs Wade were appointed by Republican Presidents. One could say that it was the GOP who gave us abortion on demand.

There were 4,000 unborn babies aborted every day when George W. Bush became president back in 2001. After nearly six years of the Republican Party in complete control of the entire federal government, including both houses of Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court, there were still 4,000 unborn babies being aborted every day!

You need to stop all this political wrangling and deeming one party the party of death when it's obvious that the devil doesn't give a flying rats patooky which party he uses to attempt to legitimize evil.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It is up to you to prove your point. After all silence gives consent and Jesus did not speak about governments in this way. No need to as it would have been a totally confusing issue to those alive back then. I know he taught how we are to care for each other ... so it is a logical extension to say that Jesus would approve of government helping people.

Show me where he said anything to disprove this.

This is utter foolishness on your part. Or worse, disingenuousness, and you do this a lot. I'm calling you on it this time, rather than just rolling my eyes and letting your invalid point stand.

It is not up to me to "prove" anything. I challenged you originally to post to me Scripture that prove Jesus endorsed government taking responsibility for welfare. He didn't, and counter to your erroneous conclusion, that does not mean He silently endorsed it.

This is known as the logical fallacy, argumentum e silentio, "argument from silence." If it were a valid argument, that would mean I could ask you "Where are my car keys?" After your silence, I would shout, "I knew you took them!" Then I would have you arrested, and the charges would stick.

That's sheer fallacy. Jesus didn't endorse government's usurping of that which He clearly intended for the church to do, and no amount of claiming His silence on the government doing that job changes that.

Strike three. Go sit down. Throw away that lumber. "It ain't got no wood in it." (Quoting Yogi Berra.)

 

[OldRegular]

This is utter foolishness on your part. Or worse, disingenuousness, and you do this a lot. I'm calling you on it this time, rather than just rolling my eyes and letting your invalid point stand.

It is not up to me to "prove" anything. I challenged you originally to post to me Scripture that prove Jesus endorsed government taking responsibility for welfare. He didn't, and counter to your erroneous conclusion, that does not mean He silently endorsed it.

This is known as the logical fallacy, argumentum e silentio, "argument from silence." If it were a valid argument, that would mean I could ask you "Where are my car keys?" After your silence, I would shout, "I knew you took them!" Then I would have you arrested, and the charges would stick.

That's sheer fallacy. Jesus didn't endorse government's usurping of that which He clearly intended for the church to do, and no amount of claiming His silence on the government doing that job changes that.

Strike three. Go sit down. Throw away that lumber. "It ain't got no wood in it." (Quoting Yogi Berra.)

Using this same argumentum e silentio, "argument from silence." Crabtownboy would have us, at least doubt, whether or not Jesus Christ favors the slaughter of the unborn child. Crabtownboy denies this but he continues to note that Jesus Christ was silent regarding abortion. I insist that since God is the Author of the Bible, Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word is not silent and present the following Scripture as evidence [Ref post #143].

Proverbs 6:16-19
16. These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19. A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.