Should a good Christian be patriotic?

[OldRegular]

Love.:thumbsup: You got any left to share with the lost while you're condemning them?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[Zaac]

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Now show us where Christ commissioned you to preach condemnation to the lost or did He commission you to preach the Good News?

 

[ShagNappy]

I would bet that some on this Forum believe that Israel/Jews are still the chosen people of God!

I would bet the Bible thinks so as well. You really should try reading it sometime.

----------------------------

Romans 11: I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]

Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[OldRegular]

I would bet the Bible thinks so as well. You really should try reading it sometime.

In Genesis 3:15 we have the initial promise by God of a Redeemer. If the Redeemer was to be born of a woman and that birth was to take place in history the way must be prepared. The Redeemer must be identified with God since He was to reconcile sinful man to God and since He was a man, the seed of a woman, He must be identified with the people of God. It was necessary, therefore, that God call out a people for His Name. Unto that people would be given the oracles of God [Romans 3:2] and through that people would come the promised Redeemer.

The nation Israel was chosen as a people of God for the purpose of bringing the Redeemer into the world. Biblical history shows the rocky relationship of Israel with God through the centuries. Scripture shows that among that nation, Israel, the purpose would be fulfilled through the tribe of Judah. In time the nation of Israel divided, the apostate Northern Kingdom and a disobedient Southern Kingdom, primarily Judah. Both Kingdoms would eventually be carried into captivity as punishment by God.

Only the people of the Southern Kingdom, primarily Judah, were brought out of captivity by God. It was through the tribe of Judah that the Redeemer would come and in God's own time come He did, the Deliverer had come out of Zion! After the Jews instigated the crucifixion of Jesus Christ their part in God's purpose of Salvation of the elect was complete and the standing of Israel/Jews is the same as any other people.

Paul clearly teaches that not all of the nation of Israel were chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ. There were at that time, and I believe still are, elect among Israel. That does not mean that Israel as a nation is still a chosen people of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Now show us where Christ commissioned you to preach condemnation to the lost or did He commission you to preach the Good News?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Zing a zing zing:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Zing a zing zing:laugh:

:thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

 

[Zaac]

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Ain't no need for yall to be zinging. This again continues to be pure foolishness for NOWHERE in Scripture do you see that Christ came to condemn ANYONE.

Rather Scripture tells us 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

And He surely didn't commission the church to preach condemnation of the lost.

This glaring need to condemn the lost rather than point them to Christ highlights why no one takes those bloviated words of concern about millions of the unborn seriously.

Condemn all the abortioners, but feign to care about the unborn.

 

[OldRegular]

Once you've lived overseas for a few decades like you and I have, I think Heaven becomes closer and America farther!

John, even though I am in America when you get as old as I am Heaven is so much closer and America becomes dimmer.

Every furlough the USA looks more and more debauched. Japan is more socially conservative in many ways than "Christian" America!

Judge Robert H. Bork wrote a book Slouching Towards Gomorrah. In the fly leaf of that book we read:

Welcome to America, 1996. And the "rough beast" that the visionary poet Yeats foresaw in 1919 is now a monster of decadence, a plague several generations in gestation, and we as a nation, are now slouching, not towards Bethlehem, but towards Gomorrah, the Biblical city burned to the ground for the sinfulness of its people.

I believe the slide of this country toward debauchery began in earnest in the 60's with the resistance to Viet Nam, the introduction of the drug culture, and the Supreme Court ruling on prayer in public schools. It seems to me that the people of this country interpreted that ruling as a bill of divorcement from God.

Since that time we have Roe v Wade and seen 56,000,000 unborn children slaughtered with a number of mainstream "Christian" denominations condoning even applauding that holocaust. We have seen the AIDS epidemic resulting in a widespread acceptance of homosexual lifestyles, fueled, I believe, at first by sympathy. Again mainstream "Christian "denominations have endorsed that lifestyle and the country is moving toward acceptance of marriage between homosexuals.

Bork said we were "Slouching Towards Gomorrah". It seems to me we are in a mad rush to get there and many "Churches" are joining in the rush. God punished the pagan cities Sodom and Gomorrah for their debauchery, can He do less to a country the majority of whose people profess to be believers?

 

[Don]

Ain't no need for yall to be zinging. This again continues to be pure foolishness for NOWHERE in Scripture do you see that Christ came to condemn ANYONE.

Rather Scripture tells us 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

Wrong definition of condemn. This usage indicates a "final" judgment.

The "condemnation" spoken of here in this thread by your fellow Christians is that of calling sin "sin."

And He surely didn't commission the church to preach condemnation of the lost.

This glaring need to condemn the lost rather than point them to Christ highlights why no one takes those bloviated words of concern about millions of the unborn seriously.

The sin is condemned, not the sinner. The sinner is told their sin condemns them--but that Jesus is the way to salvation.

We MUST call sin what it is. We MUST tell folks that their choices and actions have condemned each and every one of us. That includes politicians and government officials, as well as the thief and the prostitute. And we MUST tell them that there is a way out of that condemnation.

What we cannot do is stay out of the world--including that portion of it we call "poitics"--and somehow believe that by doing so, those that do that which is right in their own eyes will somehow hear the gospel on their own.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I believe C4K is heading in the right direction. We all should be good citizens. However, Christ and our culture and our politics should never be confused and I believe they often are.

I do not believe an American flag should be in the church. To display the national flag makes that flag part of the sacred architecture of the church and to visitors from other lands it most likely would be offensive. A flag says something about our theology. It is a watering down of Christ's message. To me it turns Christianity from a sacred religion to a civil religion as worse and at best indicates this is true.

Many on the board often respond to a post by saying where is that in scripture. I do not believe there is any place, any verse in scripture that can honestly be interpreted to mean, fly a national flag in church.

There may be churches in Europe where the national flag is displayed. I have never seen any church in Europe, South America or Asia that displayed the national flag.

I also do not support displaying the American flag in the church. Too many churches these days seem to support a "gospel" combining Jesus' message and the U.S. constitution as interpreted by the Republican party.

 

[Don]

I also do not support displaying the American flag in the church. Too many churches these days seem to support a "gospel" combining Jesus' message and the U.S. constitution as interpreted by the Republican party.

So--you're not happy that "too mamy" churches, led by pastors who study God's Word as their life's calling, are basically saying that republicans are lining up with God's Word moreso than democrats?

Is that really their problem, or yours?

 

[OldRegular]

Wrong definition of condemn. This usage indicates a "final" judgment.

The "condemnation" spoken of here in this thread by your fellow Christians is that of calling sin "sin."



The sin is condemned, not the sinner. The sinner is told their sin condemns them--but that Jesus is the way to salvation.

We MUST call sin what it is. We MUST tell folks that their choices and actions have condemned each and every one of us. That includes politicians and government officials, as well as the thief and the prostitute. And we MUST tell them that there is a way out of that condemnation.

What we cannot do is stay out of the world--including that portion of it we call "poitics"--and somehow believe that by doing so, those that do that which is right in their own eyes will somehow hear the gospel on their own.

Thanks Don for saying what I was apparently unable to say. I will just blame it on age!

 

[ShagNappy]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Back it up. Refute Romans 11. Don't give me your opinion. And that's all that was. Pure opinion. If God cast off Israel as His chosen people you should be able to flood this forum with proof. Instead I get a lota hooey!

Not every person of any group to ever exist will all be saved. Duh... obvious. Judas was a disciple who sat with God incarnate. Pretty certain we won't be seeing him at the wedding supper. It's a cop out.

You still haven't answered my first question... who do the prophecies yet fulfilled apply to? Pretty sure you skipped that for the same reason you offer no scriptural rebuttal to Romans 11.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular t
BLAH BLAH BLAH

Back it up. Refute Romans 11. Don't give me your opinion. And that's all that was. Pure opinion. If God cast off Israel as His chosen people you should be able to flood this forum with proof. Instead I get a lota hooey!

Not every person of any group to ever exist will all be saved. Duh... obvious. Judas was a disciple who sat with God incarnate. Pretty certain we won't be seeing him at the wedding supper. It's a cop out.

You still haven't answered my first question... who do the prophecies yet fulfilled apply to? Pretty sure you skipped that for the same reason you offer no scriptural rebuttal to Romans 11.

Your insolence in misrepresenting my post does not warrant consideration of anything you say!

 

[John of Japan]

John, even though I am in America when you get as old as I am Heaven is so much closer and America becomes dimmer.

Amen to that!

Judge Robert H. Bork wrote a book Slouching Towards Gomorrah. In the fly leaf of that book we read:

Judge Bork hit the nail dead on.

I believe the slide of this country toward debauchery began in earnest in the 60's with the resistance to Viet Nam, the introduction of the drug culture, and the Supreme Court ruling on prayer in public schools. It seems to me that the people of this country interpreted that ruling as a bill of divorcement from God.

I grew up in '60s, graduating from HS in '70, and I agree completely. By the 2nd half of the '60s: my HS had people selling radical newspapers in the hall, I could have easily bought marijuana, some radicals walked off with their diplomas at graduation doing the communist salute, etc. etc. My older brother became a Maoist. I could add a lot here.

The sole way in which the US has improved since then is in race relations (which still have a ways to go).

Since that time we have Roe v Wade and seen 56,000,000 unborn children slaughtered with a number of mainstream "Christian" denominations condoning even applauding that holocaust. We have seen the AIDS epidemic resulting in a widespread acceptance of homosexual lifestyles, fueled, I believe, at first by sympathy. Again mainstream "Christian "denominations have endorsed that lifestyle and the country is moving toward acceptance of marriage between homosexuals.

This is not only happening in America, many countries look to America for leadership and imitate her. What social trends happen there get to Japan within about 10 years, and usually end up far worse. Case in point: Japan has about twice the abortion per capita than Japan, I have read. I can't source it, but I believe it. However, there is no voice against abortion in Japan. To be fair, at least in America there is vocal opposition to abortion. Very few countries have that.

Bork said we were "Slouching Towards Gomorrah". It seems to me we are in a mad rush to get there and many "Churches" are joining in the rush. God punished the pagan cities Sodom and Gomorrah for their debauchery, can He do less to a country the majority of whose people profess to be believers?

The only possible hope for America is in a nation-wide revival. Other than that, the country will fragment more and more, maybe into separate nations as a friend of mine things.

 

[OldRegular]

The only possible hope for America is in a nation-wide revival. Other than that, the country will fragment more and more, maybe into separate nations as a friend of mine things.

Thanks for the response John. I agree with the above points you have made. If America is to survive there must be a nation-wide revival.

If there is not a chance in the direction we are moving I expect in the next 10-15 years the talk of secession will become more serious and may become a reality. I believe there has been some talk in Texas mostly some politicians just pointing out that they have all the resources to make it on their own. If Texas ever should go a lot of states with access to the ocean could take the same course. I don't believe that anything like this will happen in my lifetime but it could in the future.

I pray often for this country because I love her but there are times when I despair. Whatever happens in America my children and grandchildren will have to endure!

 

[ShagNappy]

Your insolence in misrepresenting my post does not warrant consideration of anything you say!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

wink wink nudge nudge... everyone knows!

 

[Reformed]

If by patriotic you mean expressing support for one's country - then yes, but not without dissent when required. I am not blindly patriotic. There are times when our elected leaders are wrong and I feel compelled to speak out against them. But as a Christian I recognize that my primary citizenship is in heaven. So, if it becomes a necessity to choose between obedience to God or country, the choice is an easy one to make.

 

[OldRegular]

If by patriotic you mean expressing support for one's country - then yes, but not without dissent when required. I am not blindly patriotic. There are times when our elected leaders are wrong and I feel compelled to speak out against them. But as a Christian I recognize that my primary citizenship is in heaven. So, if it becomes a necessity to choose between obedience to God or country, the choice is an easy one to make.

I have been speaking out against the American Holocaust since 1973, not that it has done any good. Of course I have been speaking out against the leftist democrats longer than that, since I was in college actually!