Zaac
Well-Known Member
Wasn't me. I said
I don't have to see him. If someone tells me he did, I'm gonna ask him. And either he will step down for a time, or I'll move my membership.
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Should a pastor be permitted to have a beer once in while?
- Thread starter righteousdude2
- Start date
Wasn't me. I said
I don't have to see him. If someone tells me he did, I'm gonna ask him. And either he will step down for a time, or I'll move my membership.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I say again that I don't understand why Christians fight so hard to be able to justify drinking poison? We are forever trying to see how close we can get to the ledge without going over. Why don't we ever see the ledge from afar and just resolve "okay, I'm not even going in that direction"?
Calypsis4
Member
I agree.
Calypsis4
Member
I didn't give you hyperbole. Along with everyone else on this thread I gave you scripture. Mainly, Proverbs 20:1 and 23:31-32.
Now are you going to answer my simple question? Are you actually promoting the drinking of intoxicating (poisonous) beverages? Yes/no. And if so, then why?
P.S. And also, again, why do you think the Holy Spirit gave us such warnings about drinking fermented beverages in the first place?
I think most of the contention in this thread is due to a misunderstanding of what wine was and how it was used in bible times.
As has already been noted water in that day was not the pure, safe, sanitized water we get today. It came from rivers, streams, and wells. It was often infected with amoebas which caused amoebic dysentery, a serious killed in those times.
In order to avoid amoebic dysentery the people in that day would mix their water with wine (yes, fermented wine). The alcohol in the wine would kill the amoebas in the water and the water would dilute the wine to the point it was no longer intoxicating (about 4 or 5 parts water to one part wine).
Remember, the process of distilling spirits did not begin until the middle ages when wine merchants would distill their wine into winebrant, or brandy, so it would travel well. When it was received it would be mixed again with water to reconstitute it as wine. Some people decided they liked the brandy straight instead of reconstituted and the liquor industry was born.
So, when we see the term "strong drink" in the bible we know it means "unmixed wine."
It is no coincidence that Jesus used water pots to change the water into wine.
If wine did not contain any alcohol as some claim then what are you going to do with Acts 2 that said it did... You know where I'm going!... Wine could definitely give you a buzz... Brother Glen
Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day
I do not condemn anyone on here for using grape juice in communion but in my church we used wine... That being said always keep in mind the attitude you have going in communion weather wine or grape juice lets not forget this admonition from Corinthians... Brother Glen
I Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
You have given hyperbole, equating alcohol to poison.
I have seen the scripture you have posted and I disagree with your interpretation. I've already explained that Proverbs 23:31 is speaking about wine that is in the process of fermenting, and not the finished product.
Calypsis4
Member
No, you are wrong. My dad happened to be a police officer in the Oklahoma City Police until he retired after 25 yrs. He wrote many tickets to drunken law breakers who were DUI. Both the writing on the tickets and the language in the courts used the word 'intoxicated' & it was often used in describing their mental condition while driving. That word 'intoxicated' referred to those who were inebriated by fermented liquid. The point: to be intoxicated is to be poisoned.That is why the perceptions and reactions of the mind are affected in such a negative way that police action is necessary for those who violate the law. But while man's law places a certain percentage upon what can be legally imbibed without prosecution, the Bible does not.
There are different degrees of intoxication but that poisoning begins with the first drink. You will not escape the toxic definition in this matter because it is a part of our law and is still being enforced to this day.
I doesn't matter to me what your 'interpretation' is on the matter: the warning in Prov. 23 is given and your position effectively negates that warning. You don't have an 'interpretation' you merely dismiss the warning ...for whatever personal reason you have. Apparently, in your mind, there is no 'warning' at all and Solomon must have wasted his time writing verse 31 in particular.
We are not only told to not drink such liquids (in addition to Prov 20:1) we are told to not even look at it so that it won't tempt us to drink it. Why else would the Holy Spirit give us this command? (and it is a command, not a suggestion!).SO.........if you reply and decide to ignore all else that I said, don't ignore this last paragraph.
Calypsis4
Member
Really? And just what do you tell ex-drunkards(alcoholics) in your congregation who struggle to stay sober...and whose passions can be and usually are inflamed by the very taste of fermented liquors... when the Lord's supper is given?
The point being that the blood of Jesus Christ was pure...just as the bread of communion must be pure (unleavened) and the wine (unfermented)...otherwise it can lead to the temptation of ex-drinkers to return to their awful habit.
You missed the point of what we said earlier: Wine is both fermented and non-fermented in the Bible. Fermented wine has undergone putrefaction (rotteness to put it plainly) and has become intoxicating. Believers are enjoined by the Lord to drink of 'the fruit of the vine' Luke 22:18, (unfermented). He never created an intoxicating liquid. (intoxication comes from the latin word 'toxin' = poison).
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I remember going home for Christmas from college one year. Somebody got the bright idea to use real wine instead of grape juice for The Lord's Supper at my home church. I smelled it before it got to me and said no thank you. There was a lot of gagging and coughing that morning during the Lord's Supper.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Really good question. I just can't see any reason, given today's alcohol abuses that generally start at an early age, for the Church to be serving alcohol or for a pastor to drink.
Better cancel all those pot lucks as well since some people tend towards gluttony.
Nonsense! I have a very serious heart condition. I take three medications to help control it. 2 of the 3 are deadly poisons if too much is ingested. But at the proper level they keep me alive.
Warfarin: It was initially introduced in 1948 as a pesticide against rats and mice, and is still used for this purpose. D-Con Rat Poison for example. But in smaller doses it acts as an anticoagulant and helps to prevent new blood clots from forming, and helps to keep existing blood clots from getting worse.
Digoxin: Used to treat heart rhythm problems. M ade (only way to keep the stupid software from making the mad face) from Digitalis, about 20 species of herbaceous perennials, shrubs, and biennials commonly called foxgloves. But if taken in too great a quantity Digoxin toxicity can be fatal.
The same is true of alcohol. In moderation it can help in digestion and moderate amounts of alcohol raises levels of high-density lipoprotein, HDL, or 'good' cholesterol and higher HDL levels are associated with greater protection against heart disease.
Moderate alcohol consumption can lead to a decrease in common cold cases which can be very serious in heart patients.
Moderate alcohol use showed a 23 percent lower likelihood to develop cognitive impairment or Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia.
The moderate use of alcohol can reduce the risk of gallstones by one-third.
So, please, keep your silliness to yourself. Even Paul, writing the words inspired by God the Holy Spirit told Timothy to "use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."
Please don't tell God you think He is a liar!
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I really don't know but I know we used wine and unleavened bread the sisters made... I even remember the brand of wine Mogen David... I'm sure that if one did not want to partake of the wine for whatever reason they would not be looked upon any differently... The only one that judges should be the Lord... You do what you do in your church and we do what we do in ours... btw we also were foot washing Baptist but that's another thread... Brother Glen
You are aware, are you not, that wine ferments because of the presence of leaven in the juice. The only way to remove the leaven is to allow it to ferment.
So you are serving unleavened bread a leavened grape juice?
You are aware, are you not, that wine ferments because of the presence of leaven in the juice. The only way to remove the leaven is to allow it to ferment.
So you are serving unleavened bread a leavened grape juice?
So that is the reason TC... I did not know that and it has been on my mind. There was definitely a reason for unleavened and wine... Thank You for the info!... Brother Glen
Zaac
Well-Known Member
We don't do potlucks at church. Folks might do them in their homes, but we don't do them at church. When we serve food at church, there's generally a menu that's served. You go through line and get the dinner and dessert for which you paid. If you're still hungry, we will give you all the sweet tea you can stomach.Biggrin
Calypsis4
Member
Nonsense! I have a very serious heart condition. I take three medications to help control it. 2 of the 3 are deadly poisons if too much is ingested. But at the proper level they keep me alive.
Warfarin: It was initially introduced in 1948 as a pesticide against rats and mice, and is still used for this purpose. D-Con Rat Poison for example. But in smaller doses it acts as an anticoagulant and helps to prevent new blood clots from forming, and helps to keep existing blood clots from getting worse.
Digoxin: Used to treat heart rhythm problems. Made from Digitalis, about 20 species of herbaceous perennials, shrubs, and biennials commonly called foxgloves. But if taken in too great a quantity Digoxin toxicity can be fatal.
The same is true of alcohol. In moderation it can help in digestion and moderate amounts of alcohol raises levels of high-density lipoprotein, HDL, or 'good' cholesterol and higher HDL levels are associated with greater protection against heart disease.
Moderate alcohol consumption can lead to a decrease in common cold cases which can be very serious in heart patients.
Moderate alcohol use showed a 23 percent lower likelihood to develop cognitive impairment or Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia.
The moderate use of alcohol can reduce the risk of gallstones by one-third.
So, please, keep your silliness to yourself. Even Paul, writing the words inspired by God the Holy Spirit told Timothy to "use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."
Please don't tell God you think He is a liar!
You need to settle down, fella. The scripture do tell us that the drinking of wine for ones stomach problems is acceptable. I Timothy 5:23 but while medicinal use is permissible there isn't any other proper use for intoxicating beverages in the Bible. The same principle would hold true for the use of morphine...illegal except as a doctor prescribes. We don't partake of such medicines for recreational or pleasurable matters because they so easily lead to addiction and great harm to the body.
"The moderate use of alcohol can reduce the risk of gallstones by one-third." Then you need to stick with that and that alone. But that being so we should not throw out the warnings about fermented beverages and the sorrows it can lead to just because one might like the taste. Personally, I have never tasted any liquor (beer or wine) that didn't have a rotten taste to it.