Should a pastor be permitted to have a beer once in while?

[Calypsis4]

I wonder which old dead theologian was the first write about non-alcoholic grape juice? Does anyone have any idea?

The prophets, the apostles, and Jesus in the Bible. Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-32, 30:4, Luke 1:15, 22:18, Eph. 5:18. etc.

 

[InTheLight]

Define 'good' and 'inferior' as it relates to wine and prove it scripturally.

Also, if God has placed a curse on those who cause others to get drunk (Habakkuk 2:15) then how can any Christian with a conscience suggest that the Lord Jesus provided the already full-of-wine wedding guests at Cana EVEN MORE FERMENTED WINE...after the first wine was gone?

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk,
so that he can gaze on their naked bodies!

Jesus' motivation at Cana was not malice and he didn't want to look at naked bodies!

The Bible says the guests were:

"well drunk" KJV

"had too much to drink" NIV

"drunk freely* NASB
* have become drunk

"when the guests are drunk" NET

so, it's you that has the explaining to do, not me.

Secondly, Jesus turned the water into wine. How long does it take new wine to decompose into that which is fermented?

I don't know.

 

[InTheLight]

It was the pure juice of the vine.

So, people can get drunk on pure juice of the vine? John 2:10

 

[Servent]

So many in the Bible belt are against drinking alcoholic beverages, but have no problem gorging themselves at the buffet on Saturdays and Sundays. Oh they'll gossip and tear down just about anyone they see drinking a beer. That's because they are against it. But, they don't have any problems going to the seafood buffet and going back for seconds two or three times. Picking up a bowl peach cobbler, 2 chocolate cookies, a piece of that fresh carrot cake, a sweet tea with 3 refills. All the while gossiping about the fella they saw drinking a beer.

Big difference going to the buffet hurts me, drinking could hurt someone else.

 

[Calypsis4]

"InTheLight,

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk,
so that he can gaze on their naked bodies!

Jesus' motivation at Cana was not malice and he didn't want to look at naked bodies!

The Bible says the guests were:

"well drunk" KJV

That's dishonest. You should quote the entire verse in such matters:

Quote: "And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now"

It doesn't say that they were drunk...only that they had, at that point, quite a bit to drink.

"had too much to drink" NIV

The NIV is wrong and I have no trust in that corrupt translation. Likewise the NASB, the NET, etc.

so, it's you that has the explaining to do, not me.

Not when you give partial quotes with the attempt to obscure the meaning. You did not quote the entire verse and you thereby attempted to apply a different meaning than what John wrote.

I don't know.

I do. Under normal conditions, fermentation takes seven to ten days of very warm weather. That means that Jesus did not make fermented (intoxicating) wine.

 

[Calypsis4]

So, people can get drunk on pure juice of the vine? John 2:10

Please read what I said on post #185.

 

[Zaac]

Because of how they wanted to attack Him. They knew he drank wine so they accused Him of being a drunkard. They knew He ate as well - and accused Him of being a glutton.

AGAIN, based on Scripture, how do you know they knew He drank wine if they accused of drinking to the point of being drunk and were obviously wrong? That doesn't mean that He drank wine. That just means they were wrong about Him being a drunkard.

But then let's look at the wedding feast - what difference would it make if someone brought out the "best" first and then later brought out the lesser quality stuff if it were juice? .

Let's try this again. The bad stuff that had been sitting for a long time and started to ferment was gone. The good stuff that Jesus produced could be viewed as freshly squeezed juice right off the vine. It had not "spoiled" yet.

I think if I had a glass or two of yummy grape juice and then had a glass that was bad, I'd know it.

Perhaps that's exactly what happened at the wedding feast. They drank all the old, fermented spoiled tasting "juice" first. And then Jesus produced the freshly squeezed "juice" that tasted better and unspoiled.

However, with wine, you bring out the best in the beginning and when the people have "well drunk" as the Bible says, you sneak in the lesser quality and they can't tell the difference because their senses have been dulled.

But that's not what happened, They got the old, fermented nasty tasting "juice" first. And then Jesus produced the freshly squeezed good "juice".

But Jesus made even better wine than what was served first - which only makes sense in this context if it were true wine

No. It makes sense if what Jesus produced was "juice" that tastes like it was freshly squeezed after the grapes were just picked as opposed to juice that had sat around in vats for days and started to sour and ferment.

 

[Calypsis4]

AGAIN, based on Scripture, how do you know they knew He drank wine if they accused of drinking to the point of being drunk and were obviously wrong? That doesn't mean that He drank wine. That just means they were wrong about Him being a drunkard.

Let's try this again. The bad stuff that had been sitting for a long time and started to ferment was gone. The good stuff that Jesus produced could be viewed as freshly squeezed juice right off the vine. It had not "spoiled" yet.

Perhaps that's exactly what happened at the wedding feast. They drank all the old, fermented spoiled tasting "juice" first. And then Jesus produced the freshly squeezed "juice" that tasted better and unspoiled.

But that's not what happened, They got the old, fermented nasty tasting "juice" first. And then Jesus produced the freshly squeezed good "juice".

No. It makes sense if what Jesus produced was "juice" that tastes like it was freshly squeezed after the grapes were just picked as opposed to juice that had sat around in vats for days and started to sour and ferment.

Excellent reply, brother. Their thinking on this matter is so completely backwards I would have to call it 'Orwellian'.

 

[TCassidy]

OK, thanks for the explanation. Is it your belief the wine that Jesus made was merely grape juice or fermented (though diluted)?

No. It was wine. The "it was grape juice" argument is an argument without any merit.

The Greek word translated "wine" is (οινος, οινουo, οινω) oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol.

Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol.

There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

There are thirteen original Hebrew and Greek words for "wine" in our English Bible. How can we know which one means fermented wine? To find the answer, do not go to Aristotle or Pliny, but go to the Bible itself. By comparing its usage, the scriptural meaning of wine can be defined.

One of the original Hebrew words for wine is "yayin." This word is first used in Genesis 9:21 where Noah "drank of the wine and was drunken." This wine caused drunkenness! Was it just grape juice? Uh, no!

In Genesis 14:18 we read of Melchizedek – a type of Jesus Christ, or possibly even a Christophany – who "brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." God Himself, in the person of Melchizedek, gave wine to Abraham. And again, the original Hebrew word was "yayin" which always means fermented wine. This same Hebrew word is used in Amos 9:14 speaking of the coming Millennium where the people will "plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof." They will drink the same kind of wine that Noah drank and became drunk by overindulgence.

In the New Testament, one original Greek word for wine is oinos. Proof that it is alcoholic is given in the story of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan poured oil and wine on the man’s wounds (Luke 10:34), showing that the wine had enough alcoholic content to be used as an antiseptic. Would you pour grape juice on a wound?

The Greek word oinos is also used in John 2 where Jesus turned water into wine by a divine miracle. It is used in 1 Timothy 5:23, the command of Paul, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities." This Greek word is also used in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine wherein is excess."

If God wanted to say "grape juice" He would have done so, just as He did in Acts 2:13 "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

The words "new wine" are translated from the Greek word γλευκους (gleukos).

God is not an idiot. Had He wanted to say "grape juice" he would have said "grape juice" (γλευκους), but He didn't. He said (οινος) fermented, alcoholic wine, just like Paul cautioned about in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine . . . " (οινω).

 

[TCassidy]

Calypsis4, I can't help but notice you still have not answered my question. In case you forgot here it is again.

You stated "poisoning begins with the first drink." Either what you said was untrue or Paul told Timothy to commit suicide. I suspect the former is more likely correct. Which is it?

Earth to Calypsis4. Earth to Calypsis4. Are you there? Do you have an answer?

 

[Calypsis4]

Perhaps someone needs to inform that proud, unforgiving man that his posts are not being read...not by me any longer. And until he admits flinging insults and reveals some humility then this circumstance will remain.

 

[InTheLight]

No. It was wine. The "it was grape juice" argument is an argument without any merit.

The Greek word translated "wine" is (οινος, οινουo, οινω) oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol.

Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol.

There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

There are thirteen original Hebrew and Greek words for "wine" in our English Bible. How can we know which one means fermented wine? To find the answer, do not go to Aristotle or Pliny, but go to the Bible itself. By comparing its usage, the scriptural meaning of wine can be defined.

One of the original Hebrew words for wine is "yayin." This word is first used in Genesis 9:21 where Noah "drank of the wine and was drunken." This wine caused drunkenness! Was it just grape juice? Uh, no!

In Genesis 14:18 we read of Melchizedek – a type of Jesus Christ, or possibly even a Christophany – who "brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." God Himself, in the person of Melchizedek, gave wine to Abraham. And again, the original Hebrew word was "yayin" which always means fermented wine. This same Hebrew word is used in Amos 9:14 speaking of the coming Millennium where the people will "plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof." They will drink the same kind of wine that Noah drank and became drunk by overindulgence.

In the New Testament, one original Greek word for wine is oinos. Proof that it is alcoholic is given in the story of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan poured oil and wine on the man’s wounds (Luke 10:34), showing that the wine had enough alcoholic content to be used as an antiseptic. Would you pour grape juice on a wound?

The Greek word oinos is also used in John 2 where Jesus turned water into wine by a divine miracle. It is used in 1 Timothy 5:23, the command of Paul, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities." This Greek word is also used in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine wherein is excess."

If God wanted to say "grape juice" He would have done so, just as He did in Acts 2:13 "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

The words "new wine" are translated from the Greek word γλευκους (gleukos).

God is not an idiot. Had He wanted to say "grape juice" he would have said "grape juice" (γλευκους), but He didn't. He said (οινος) fermented, alcoholic wine, just like Paul cautioned about in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine . . . " (οινω).

TC, Calypsis4 wants you to know he's not reading your posts.

 

[matt wade]

TC, Calypsis4 wants you to know he's not reading your posts.

InTheLight, could you convey a message to the male church lady and let him know that I am still reading his?

 

[InTheLight]

InTheLight, could you convey a message to the male church lady and let him know that I am still reading his?

Why, Matt, how would I go about doing that?

 

[Calypsis4]

TC, Calypsis4 wants you to know he's not reading your posts.

Gee, thanks..............I think.

 

[TCassidy]

TC, Calypsis4 wants you to know he's not reading your posts.

I don't really care. He is the personification of 1 Corinthians 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

 

[TCassidy]

Of course he is not reading what I post. If he did read it he would have to admit he does not believe the bible. I posted a very thorough exposition of the Greek words used in the bible for "wine" and how they are used and prove, from the bible, that the "grape juice" theory is not only unbiblical, it is antibiblical.

But he lacks the honesty to admit the bible is right and he is wrong so he hides under the porch with his fingers in his ears shouting "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"

LOL! ROFLOL!

 

[Rolfe]

It was the pure juice of the vine.

Based on what?

 

[tyndale1946]

Alright. Time to shut this one down. Nurse! STAT!!!

Of course he is not reading what I post. If he did read it he would have to admit he does not believe the bible. I posted a very thorough exposition of the Greek words used in the bible for "wine" and how they are used and prove, from the bible, that the "grape juice" theory is not only unbiblical, it is antibiblical.

But he lacks the honesty to admit the bible is right and he is wrong so he hides under the porch with his fingers in his ears shouting "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"

LOL! ROFLOL!

Since there are so many version of the Bible out there maybe his version says grape juice?... Your guess is as good as mine... Brother Glen

 

[annsni]

But remember this:

"I see people at the yacht club drinking what I think is just a coke and yet it has alcohol in it as well. You can't tell by just looking at a drink." —Annsni

Except what alternatives were there? Not many. They could have grape juice at the grape harvest but grape juice without refrigeration quickly turns. They didn't have Welch's back then. Everyone knew what the others were drinking - especially when they did life together like that. Yes, I can go to a restaurant and have a drink of something and someone walk up and not necessarily know what it is - but should they come to my home, they will know what I'm drinking and I will know what they are drinking. I'd say that there were many who were "doing life" with Jesus and they knew exactly what He was partaking in.

And do you not recall Hannah and Eli at Shiloh?

ESV I Samuel 1:9-15

"After they had eaten and drunk in Shiloh, Hannah rose. Now Eli the priest was sitting on the seat beside the doorpost of the temple of the Lord. She was deeply distressed and prayed. . . .Eli took her to be a drunken woman. And Eli said to her, “How long will you go on being drunk? Put away your wine from you.” But Hannah answered, “No, my lord, I am a woman troubled in spirit. I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but I have been pouring out my soul before the Lord."

Had Eli seen Hannah drink? I don't know. Her behavior was such that he thought her drunk. Did people look at Jesus and see His behavior and think Him drunk because of that? I see no evidence in Scripture to support that. They accused him of being a drunkard because they SAW Him drink.