Should Christians Support Isreal?

[OldRegular]

Grasshopper, I'm a bit confused as to your point.

The Jewish people were never presented as being a seperate "race" of people in using the scientific meaning of the word.

God called Abram out of his culture and his religion. God didn't change his physical characteristics.

So the notion that there is no race of Jews, therefore there is no longer a nation of Isreal is a strawman. There never was a race of Jews only a religion/culture of people who identified themselves as Jewish.

The decendents of that religion/culture exists today and God hasn't said he was done with them. On the contrary, He said He would scatter them for their disobedience, but He never withdrew the promises made beforehand. Nor have all those promises been fulfilled. (for example the one about fully occupying the Promised Land)

I believe you are mistaken.

 

[OldRegular]

Modern day Israel is a modern state of varied Jews, period. It is no more special than is any other country.

If Israel is doing the right thing, then suport her. If she is doing ill, then say so.

The Israel of scripture has changed and fulfilled in the church of Jesus Christ. There is no more Israel. All the kingdom promises will be fulfilled in the churches of Christ and in the Kingdom of God, with Jesus enthroned at the right hand of the Father.

Cheers,

Jim

A hearty AMEN and Cheers to you Jim. Haven't heard from you in a while!

 

[Joshua2415]

There's something to be said for a nation that has defeated enemies much larger than it, both at its independence and during the 1967 war. The speed with which Israel defeats its nation-enemies (not stateless enemies such as al Quaeda, Palestinian militants, and so on) is really nothing short of amazing. At least to me it hearkens back to ancient Israel, whose small numbers could vanquish massive enemies when God was on its side.

The modern nation of Israel may or may not be the spiritual Israel prophesied in the Bible, but it certainly will become it given its location. That area of the world is where 90% of what happened in the Bible occurred.

We may believe America is God's chosen nation, but it isn't. That right has always been Israel's. I believe we should support Israel, unless it truly falls away from what God intended for it. Israel plays a huge part in the end times, not in just its coming to exist, but in Armageddon, the Rapture (the 144,000), and the Great Tribulation. If America wants a stake in it, our best bet is to support Israel.

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, I'm a bit confused as to your point.

The Jewish people were never presented as being a seperate "race" of people in using the scientific meaning of the word.

I quote just-want-peace,

"manage to keep themselves from total assimilation in other cultures,"

God called Abram out of his culture and his religion. God didn't change his physical characteristics.

Except for that little piece of skin.:laugh:

So the notion that there is no race of Jews, therefore there is no longer a nation of Isreal is a strawman. There never was a race of Jews only a religion/culture of people who identified themselves as Jewish.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The decendents of that religion/culture exists today

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/07-Jews-As-Nation/section-5.htmlhttp://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm

and God hasn't said he was done with them. On the contrary, He said He would scatter them for their disobedience, but He never withdrew the promises made beforehand. Nor have all those promises been fulfilled. (for example the one about fully occupying the Promised Land)

Jos 21:43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[Grasshopper]

There's something to be said for a nation that has defeated enemies much larger than it, both at its independence and during the 1967 war. The speed with which Israel defeats its nation-enemies (not stateless enemies such as al Quaeda, Palestinian militants, and so on) is really nothing short of amazing.

Perhaps American weapons had something to do with it. What if we had given are weapons to Syria or Egypt instead of Israel?

At least to me it hearkens back to ancient Israel, whose small numbers could vanquish massive enemies when God was on its side.

Are you saying God is on Israel's side? You realize modern Israel is secular?

We may believe America is God's chosen nation, but it isn't.

Who are these "we"?

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

That right has always been Israel's.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

I believe we should support Israel, unless it truly falls away from what God intended for it.

Think about this statement in light of what you know about modern Israel and Judaism.

Israel plays a huge part in the end times,

You mean the "end times" that were occuring in the 1st century?

1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

not in just its coming to exist, but in Armageddon, the Rapture (the 144,000), and the Great Tribulation. If America wants a stake in it, our best bet is to support Israel.

A stake in what?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Except for that little piece of skin.:laugh:

Yeah, well that little peice of skin still has to be taken off. Every man, no matter what his skin color is still born with one attached.

The rest of your reply I'll study on a bit before I respond. Interesting topic.

Out of curiosity, if your views on the Jewish people changed would you also have to change your view of the "end times" (either AD70 or the future one)? It seems it would have too. (I never realized how wrapped up the identity of the Jews was with end time theology)

I believe you are mistaken.

This would be a lot more useful if you explain why you think so.

 

[Jedi Knight]

And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Genesis 12:3 I notice that "YOU" twice is being spoken to not "the nation" and all of those who trust in God. John 8:37 I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. John 8:39-39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. Thus I believe its more an individual promise.

 

[OldRegular]

Those who are prone to support Israel for fear GOD will punish them need to read and understand what Jesus Christ told the Jews in Matthew 21:43.

I think I posed this question before but really got no answer. Suppose a Christian, a child of GOD, is called upon to defend himself against a Jew and does so. Does GOD punish HIS child?

 

[Grasshopper]

Out of curiosity, if your views on the Jewish people changed would you also have to change your view of the "end times" (either AD70 or the future one)? It seems it would have too.

No, whether one could prove direct descendency or not it doesn't change my view. Old Covenant Israel, just like her sacrificial system, was a type and shadow of future spiritual realities. Secondly, one can't get around the problem of the "end times"/"last days" were a 1st century occurance.

How does your view change is modern Israel has no relationship with Old Covenant/1st century Judaism?

If it does then aren't Jesus' words concerning the Jews still applicable today?

 

[Joshua2415]

Ah, Grasshopper, if you are a first-century fulfillment believer of Revelation, I would imagine we're at an impasse. Even if modern Israel were secular (which it's not--it's a Jewish state) God could certainly support it if he wanted to--what's to stop God? I'd wager God would support Israel in its current incarnation if he still loved ancient Israel after all they did to him.

 

[HankD]

Politically speaking America should support Israel because (again, politically speaking) we, England and several other nations in the UN on November 29, 1947 voted her into modern existence.

This would have never happened had it not been for the Nazi Holocaust.

Viewed from the political aspect we should support modern Israel for the right things she does and rebuke her government for the wrong things as we do (or should do) for any other nation fo any faith and culture.

Personally I believe Israel has shown courageous restraint in not bombing Iran off the face of the earth as her leader has promised to do to them.
They know that this kind of "first-strike" would in all probablity trigger WWIII.

Had it not been for the America-Israel alliance of power, IMO the world would be on their prayer rugs this morning.

There is both an individual and international aspect of "jihad".

For radical Islam international "jihad" not only means the struggle for the survival of the Moslem faith but an aggressive war against the infidels who will not submit, even against those of "the book" (Christians and "compromised" moslems).

Though there are many rank and file of the radical element who will sacrifice their lives for the cause of jihad most will not, especially amongst the leadership of radical Islam.

IMO, for them, it has to do with the lust for power and not the love of Allah.

The America-Israeli power alliance has kept them from fulfilling their dream.

Redeemed Israel: It's reality is another story. Some, like myself, believe it will become the head of the nations after the physical/literal return of Jesus Christ.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Good post Hank except for the last sentence.

 

[Me4Him]

There's still "ONE WEEK" of Daniel's prophecy to be fulfilled, and that prophecy focuses on "ISRAEL", (Trib period)

Israel is a nation today because of that prophecy.

Everything of Israel is not Israel, but a "Remnant" will be saved out of that final week of Daniel's prophecy.

"ANY NATION/PEOPLE" who "meddles" in God's plan, (peace treaty/divide the land) God has "PROMISED" to "CUT THEM TO PIECES".

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people:

all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Obama recently promised the "Palestinians" he would not let Israel stand in the way of a "PALESTINIAN STATE",

with "JERUSALEM" as "IT'S CAPTIAL".

If you think 911 was bad, wait until God starts "cutting to pieces".

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There's still "ONE WEEK" of Daniel's prophecy to be fulfilled, and that prophecy focuses on "ISRAEL", (Trib period)

Israel is a nation today because of that prophecy.

Everything of Israel is not Israel, but a "Remnant" will be saved out of that final week of Daniel's prophecy.

"ANY NATION/PEOPLE" who "meddles" in God's plan, (peace treaty/divide the land) God has "PROMISED" to "CUT THEM TO PIECES".

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people:

all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Obama recently promised the "Palestinians" he would not let Israel stand in the way of a "PALESTINIAN STATE",

with "JERUSALEM" as "IT'S CAPTIAL".

If you think 911 was bad, wait until God starts "cutting to pieces".

The final week in Daniel's prophesy was fulfilled in 70 AD.

 

[HankD]

Good post Hank except for the last sentence.

Of course. I understand OR.

HankD

 

[preachinjesus]

There's something to be said for a nation that has defeated enemies much larger than it, both at its independence and during the 1967 war. The speed with which Israel defeats its nation-enemies (not stateless enemies such as al Quaeda, Palestinian militants, and so on) is really nothing short of amazing. At least to me it hearkens back to ancient Israel, whose small numbers could vanquish massive enemies when God was on its side.

An appropriate phrase here is: post hoc ergo propter hoc

We may believe America is God's chosen nation, but it isn't. That right has always been Israel's. I believe we should support Israel, unless it truly falls away from what God intended for it. Israel plays a huge part in the end times, not in just its coming to exist, but in Armageddon, the Rapture (the 144,000), and the Great Tribulation. If America wants a stake in it, our best bet is to support Israel.

Are you suggesting that at the eschaton only those who have been supportive of Israel will be included in the Kingdom of God? Just curious because that has profound implications.

 

[Revmitchell]

God has Israel in His hands and He is not finished with Israel yet. Regardless of what Iran, Syria or anyone else does Christ will reign.

 

[OldRegular]

The final week in Daniel's prophesy was fulfilled in 70 AD.

I would say that the final events in the last week of Daniel's prophecy were fulfilled in 70 AD.

 

[OldRegular]

God has Israel in His hands and He is not finished with Israel yet. Regardless of what Iran, Syria or anyone else does Christ will reign.

After the birth of Jesus Christ Israel, more specifically the descendants of David, had fulfilled GOD's purpose for them.

 

[Me4Him]

After the birth of Jesus Christ Israel, more specifically the descendants of David, had fulfilled GOD's purpose for them.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, (Jesus Christ) the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Your "Replacement theory" is like a "broke Cistern", it won't hold water. :smilewinkgrin: