-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Should Christians Support Isreal?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You have been, as some say, drinking kool aid. I said nothing about replacement!:wavey:
Amazing how people keep bringing up Replacement Theology. They must be ignorant on the suubject.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Me4Him,
Amills include me, we doesn't teaching 'Replacement Thoelogy'. Many dispensationalists misunderstanding us. Church doesn't replace Israel.
Israel is now expanding because God grafted Gentiles upon Olive Tree join with believing Jews, now both became one unity as what Romans chapter 11 teaches.
I am not against any Christians or churches in America for support Israel(modern Jewish nation). Nothing wrong with it. I am sure that, God does bless them who support Israel.
Yet, this modern Jewish nation is not a Christian nation. Over 90% of Jews are still blind and reject Christ as their Messiah. Praise God that, America did send missionaries to Israel, to spread the gospel of Jesus to lost Jews and Palentians, both need Christ.
Bible teaches us that both Gentiles and Jews are now reconciled together into one unity by Calvary - Ephesians chapter 2. And we(Gentiles) were aliens and strangers separated from commonwealth of Israel. But, now, we are commonwealth of Israel. Commonwealth means citizenship. Therefore, we are Israel.
Israel means God's people. Well also same with Church, it means God's people. Both are no difference.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Amills include me, we doesn't teaching 'Replacement Thoelogy'. Many dispensationalists misunderstanding us. Church doesn't replace Israel.
Israel is now expanding because God grafted Gentiles upon Olive Tree join with believing Jews, now both became one unity as what Romans chapter 11 teaches.
I am not against any Christians or churches in America for support Israel(modern Jewish nation). Nothing wrong with it. I am sure that, God does bless them who support Israel.
Yet, this modern Jewish nation is not a Christian nation. Over 90% of Jews are still blind and reject Christ as their Messiah. Praise God that, America did send missionaries to Israel, to spread the gospel of Jesus to lost Jews and Palentians, both need Christ.
Bible teaches us that both Gentiles and Jews are now reconciled together into one unity by Calvary - Ephesians chapter 2. And we(Gentiles) were aliens and strangers separated from commonwealth of Israel. But, now, we are commonwealth of Israel. Commonwealth means citizenship. Therefore, we are Israel.
Israel means God's people. Well also same with Church, it means God's people. Both are no difference.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Marcia
Active Member
I just spoke to a class at my church on the Kabbalah and have done workshops on it (showing how it is unbiblical). I wrote a cover story on it which was published a few years ago (I think 2005) in the Christian Research Journal. Here is the link:
http://www.equip.org/articles/kabbalah-getting-back-to-the-garden
I also have an article on my site on it (similar to the article above):
http://christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Kabbalah1.html
The Kabbalah is basically a Gnostic and occult, esoteric twisting of Judaism that is very complex. At the place where I first took and taught astrology, they had a 2 year Kabbalah class going (this was back in the 80s).
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
I'm shocked noone has referenced these scriptures yet. There was a price to be paid for their unbelief. The idea that the modern man-made state of Israel is the apple of God's eye or is special is God's eye and under His protection in like manner that OT Israel was is just a complete farce. God in the flesh told the Messiah-rejecting Jews, "ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." The modern nation of Israel has not turned to Jesus Christ. Need we further proof? Furthermore, in John 18 Jesus Christ says that His kingdom is not of this world. The idea that Christ is going to establish an earthly kingdom is the same exact error the Jews made prior to His first coming.
Romans 11 is not about a new re-imagined nation of Israel, it's about blessings due to belief here in time, the olive tree resting on the root of Christ. The unbelieving Jews, the natural branches, were cast off because of unbelief. The believing Gentiles, the wild olive branches, were graffed in because of belief. The believers are told they can be cast off if they don't continue in belief. The unbelievers can be graffed in if they abide not in unbelief. And then there is language suggesting that there will be a massive ingathering of Jews into Christianity. Not the rise of a Jewish nation, but the Jews saying "blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." The Jews being graffed back into the tree by belief.
I don't claim to understand all things concerning the end times, but some of this should be common sense. Christ isn't returning to set up an earthly kingdom, but to gather in one all that belong to Him, resurrect us in our glorified bodies in His likeness, judge the earth in righteousness, destroy the current sin cursed earth by fire, create a new heavens and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, and usher in New Jerusalem and the everlasting glorious final state of the redeemed church of God in pure holiness and perfection.
I'm shocked noone has referenced these scriptures yet. There was a price to be paid for their unbelief. The idea that the modern man-made state of Israel is the apple of God's eye or is special is God's eye and under His protection in like manner that OT Israel was is just a complete farce. God in the flesh told the Messiah-rejecting Jews, "ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." The modern nation of Israel has not turned to Jesus Christ. Need we further proof? Furthermore, in John 18 Jesus Christ says that His kingdom is not of this world. The idea that Christ is going to establish an earthly kingdom is the same exact error the Jews made prior to His first coming.
Romans 11 is not about a new re-imagined nation of Israel, it's about blessings due to belief here in time, the olive tree resting on the root of Christ. The unbelieving Jews, the natural branches, were cast off because of unbelief. The believing Gentiles, the wild olive branches, were graffed in because of belief. The believers are told they can be cast off if they don't continue in belief. The unbelievers can be graffed in if they abide not in unbelief. And then there is language suggesting that there will be a massive ingathering of Jews into Christianity. Not the rise of a Jewish nation, but the Jews saying "blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." The Jews being graffed back into the tree by belief.
I don't claim to understand all things concerning the end times, but some of this should be common sense. Christ isn't returning to set up an earthly kingdom, but to gather in one all that belong to Him, resurrect us in our glorified bodies in His likeness, judge the earth in righteousness, destroy the current sin cursed earth by fire, create a new heavens and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, and usher in New Jerusalem and the everlasting glorious final state of the redeemed church of God in pure holiness and perfection.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
An outstanding post RAdam!
God promised Israel a "literal Kingdom" here on "THIS EARTH", which Christians refer too as the "Mill Reign", because it's a "thousand years",
Jesus/church being a mystery to Israel, is one reason they rejected Jesus as Messiah because he didn't establish the "literal Kingdom".
Every wonder why the Jews are blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles,
Why doesn't God deal with both Jews/Church at the same time??
If you're like most, you haven't, answer that question and you'll end all debate about the timing of the Rapture.
God still has one week of his prophect to fulfil "BEFORE" Israel/church become "One",
Of course Jesus ends that week by his return and establishing the MK, which is the time when Israel/church does become "one",
Until then they are "Separate", Jews blinded until church rapture/Israel enter trib, Jesus returns, church/Israel/Jesus live and reign as one for the thousand years. (seventh day)
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Me4Him,
You say:
When Christ was on earth, doing his ministry. Pharisees asked Christ, that they want to know when the kingdom of God should come- Luke 17:20 "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, 'when the kingdom of God should come'."
Then, Christ answered to them and he said, "The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is WITHIN you." - Luke 17:20-21.
Pharisees were expecting the kingdom of God shall come as literal and physical on earth. Today, many Jews in Israel(modern nation), they are still looking for literal physical kingdom to be present on earth as when Messiah shall come. But, they are blind and do not understand God's plan.
Christ told them, that the kingdom of God does NOT come with observation(sight). But, Christ told them that the kingdom of God is WITHIN them. He spoken of kingdom of God, itself is spiritual, and it represents of gospel - good news that Christ already brought it to the world 2,000 years ago by Calvary.
"Thousand years" of Rev. 20:3-6, these are symbolic number, as it says, "A thousand years" & "THE thousand years", both are uncertian exactly numbered in greek word. Rev. 20:3-6 represent that Christians' souls are now in the heaven since they died many years ago, that they are reigning with Christ in the heaven for length time or period. "A thousand years" or "the thousand years" could be last for 3,000 or 10,000 years, yet it is a temporary time.
Obivously, you speak of Romans 11:25.
Let's look at Romans 11:25-26 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles BE COME IN And SO all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall coem out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
This passage speaks about the blindness have happended to natural Jews, that means, God removed unbelieving Jews away from tree, SO, God grafted Gentiles "COME IN" upon tree join with believing Jews together. SO, both are already reconciled became one by Calvary 2,000 years ago.
I will continued make another next post to answer your reply.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
You say:
When Christ was on earth, doing his ministry. Pharisees asked Christ, that they want to know when the kingdom of God should come- Luke 17:20 "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, 'when the kingdom of God should come'."
Then, Christ answered to them and he said, "The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is WITHIN you." - Luke 17:20-21.
Pharisees were expecting the kingdom of God shall come as literal and physical on earth. Today, many Jews in Israel(modern nation), they are still looking for literal physical kingdom to be present on earth as when Messiah shall come. But, they are blind and do not understand God's plan.
Christ told them, that the kingdom of God does NOT come with observation(sight). But, Christ told them that the kingdom of God is WITHIN them. He spoken of kingdom of God, itself is spiritual, and it represents of gospel - good news that Christ already brought it to the world 2,000 years ago by Calvary.
"Thousand years" of Rev. 20:3-6, these are symbolic number, as it says, "A thousand years" & "THE thousand years", both are uncertian exactly numbered in greek word. Rev. 20:3-6 represent that Christians' souls are now in the heaven since they died many years ago, that they are reigning with Christ in the heaven for length time or period. "A thousand years" or "the thousand years" could be last for 3,000 or 10,000 years, yet it is a temporary time.
Obivously, you speak of Romans 11:25.
Let's look at Romans 11:25-26 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles BE COME IN And SO all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall coem out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
This passage speaks about the blindness have happended to natural Jews, that means, God removed unbelieving Jews away from tree, SO, God grafted Gentiles "COME IN" upon tree join with believing Jews together. SO, both are already reconciled became one by Calvary 2,000 years ago.
I will continued make another next post to answer your reply.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Let's continue.
Me4Him,
God is stilkl working on Jews and Gentiles today. God uses Christians to witness the gospel spread over all nations to both Jews and Gentiles, need their salvation. Salvation is still open for everyone both Jews and Gentiles. Even, in modern Israel still have chance to hear the gospel of salvation, because the salvation is still open to them.
When Christ once come to earth at secoind advent. Then the salvation is done. Time for the judgment to come. There will be no more chance for natural Jews to be saved. It would be too late for them to repent.
Matt. 25:10-13 give the clear picture of second advent, when Christ once come again, the door shut. It represents that it is "finished", no more another chance to repent of salvation. Time for Christ to judgment the world. As Christ described in Matt. 25:31-46.
Bible teaches us, when once Christ comes at second advent. All unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting fire. There will be no remain of unbeliever(mortal) to enter into new earth after the judgment day at second advent as what Matt. 25:31-46 describes. All uneblievers will be gone. Only believers(both Jews and Gentiles) will be on new earth with Christ for eternality follow at second advent.
You say:
Daniel 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary 2,000 years ago. 70th Week was already fulfilled by Christ that he ended daily sacrifices and destroyed the temple by his own sacrifice, and he already make new covenant with many by through his own blood.
Ephesians 2:15-16 telling us, that Christ already break the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, and He made reconciled both Jews and Gentiles became one by through his blood and Calvary. Therefore, both Jews and Gentiles both are already became one unity 2,000 years ago.
Paul clearly telling us that we now are the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12-16).
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Me4Him,
God is stilkl working on Jews and Gentiles today. God uses Christians to witness the gospel spread over all nations to both Jews and Gentiles, need their salvation. Salvation is still open for everyone both Jews and Gentiles. Even, in modern Israel still have chance to hear the gospel of salvation, because the salvation is still open to them.
When Christ once come to earth at secoind advent. Then the salvation is done. Time for the judgment to come. There will be no more chance for natural Jews to be saved. It would be too late for them to repent.
Matt. 25:10-13 give the clear picture of second advent, when Christ once come again, the door shut. It represents that it is "finished", no more another chance to repent of salvation. Time for Christ to judgment the world. As Christ described in Matt. 25:31-46.
Bible teaches us, when once Christ comes at second advent. All unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting fire. There will be no remain of unbeliever(mortal) to enter into new earth after the judgment day at second advent as what Matt. 25:31-46 describes. All uneblievers will be gone. Only believers(both Jews and Gentiles) will be on new earth with Christ for eternality follow at second advent.
You say:
Daniel 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary 2,000 years ago. 70th Week was already fulfilled by Christ that he ended daily sacrifices and destroyed the temple by his own sacrifice, and he already make new covenant with many by through his own blood.
Ephesians 2:15-16 telling us, that Christ already break the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, and He made reconciled both Jews and Gentiles became one by through his blood and Calvary. Therefore, both Jews and Gentiles both are already became one unity 2,000 years ago.
Paul clearly telling us that we now are the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12-16).
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Good points DeafPosttrib!:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Then why the blindness until the fulness of the gentiles?? (Church)
When Jesus returns, angels cast all "tares" into hell, they don't "stand in Judgment" until "later" at the GWT.
Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
Do you really think there will be "OLD MEN/WOMEN" hobbling around in heaven on their "walking canes"???
"AMILL" must "delete" an awful lot of scripture from the OT.
Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.
Has all of these been "FULFILLED", has Israel "ANOINTED" Jesus as "HOLY"?? (Messiah)
One of the problem with preterist, and the church, is that both the first and second comings of Jesus can be cover by "one prophecy".
Preterist see the "Spiritual" fulfillment of the prophecy, Jesus's first coming,
Most of the church sees the "literal fulfillment" of the same prophecy, second coming,
"FEW" see/understand both sides of the prophecy, Dan 9 is a good example.
Here's a few other prophecies with a "DUAL" application/fulfillment.
http://i25.tinypic.com/1znaptj.jpg
Israel's Tribulation and the pretrib Rapture of the church proves Israel/church are not "ONE" yet.
Israel reject the invitation to the "lamb's marriage", the reason they enter the trib and the church doesn't, and why they are blinded until the church is raptured, Jesus's marriage takes place in heaven.
Israel "marriage" to God take place in "CANA", on earth, during the "third day" from Jesus's "first coming", which is the "SEVENTH DAY" or MK, Jesus's "Second coming"
Jesus and "his disciples" (Church) are invited, this is when Israel/church becomes "ONE".
I don't recommend becoming "dogmatic" about any doctrine/belief until you can explain all events/scripture in their proper sequence without any contradictions,
But many people don't know enough of the scriptures to know those other parts of scripture their doctrine/belief contradict.
Here's you a timeline to work from.
http://i27.tinypic.com/zjxrox.jpg
Eschatology (things to come) has two extremes:
1) Scripturally speaking, everything has been accomplished, nothing remains to be fulfilled. "last things" concerning Israel as a nation which appear to be future are metaphorical or allegories related to the church as to fulfilment.
2) Again, scripturally speaking, everything is literal including all the promises to Israel as a nation, much of which is to come. Some go as far as to divide up the NT Gospels and epistles into "to Israel" and "to the Church".
There are scores of variances between these two extremes.
A study of "preterism" and "dispensationalism" (Google) will help understand these wide ranging differences and the "why" of each and their variances.
Almost every major school of eschatological thought has it's plethora of renown scholars.
HankD
1) Scripturally speaking, everything has been accomplished, nothing remains to be fulfilled. "last things" concerning Israel as a nation which appear to be future are metaphorical or allegories related to the church as to fulfilment.
2) Again, scripturally speaking, everything is literal including all the promises to Israel as a nation, much of which is to come. Some go as far as to divide up the NT Gospels and epistles into "to Israel" and "to the Church".
There are scores of variances between these two extremes.
A study of "preterism" and "dispensationalism" (Google) will help understand these wide ranging differences and the "why" of each and their variances.
Almost every major school of eschatological thought has it's plethora of renown scholars.
HankD
I lament when I see people separating Jews from Gentiles in any form. Here we see a good example of this. You are saying that God is going to deal with Jews differently than Gentiles, that there is a separate marriage, and all of this. I ask you one thing: have you ever read the Roman letter in full? You should have noted something in reading that epistle: that Paul repeatedly deals with Jew/Gentile issues telling both that "there is no difference", that "we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin", and that Abraham is "the father of us all" (believers among Jews and Gentiles). Paul, over and over again, tells us that there is no difference between us there.
Of course, you also have the other letters Paul wrote where he also deals with this issue. You have Ephesians where he says the middle wall of partition has been broken down. You have Galatians where he says that "they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham", and that "there is neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ. You have 1 Corinthians where he writes that "unto them whicg are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." You have Peter saying that "God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, eve as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." He later states, "we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
The whole NT testifies of this fact: there is no difference between a Jew and a Gentiles. Both are sinners by nature, and thus both need salvation by grace through the Lord Jesus Christ. Both are now one in the body of Christ, the middle wall of partition having been broken down by our Savior, and thus the gospel should be preached among all nations for the purpose of finding God's people, wherever they are and whatever they look like, and making disciples of them. Why, why, why do people insist that God is treating Jews differently today? Why, why, why are people erecting a new middle wall of parition?
Of course, you also have the other letters Paul wrote where he also deals with this issue. You have Ephesians where he says the middle wall of partition has been broken down. You have Galatians where he says that "they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham", and that "there is neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ. You have 1 Corinthians where he writes that "unto them whicg are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." You have Peter saying that "God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, eve as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." He later states, "we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
The whole NT testifies of this fact: there is no difference between a Jew and a Gentiles. Both are sinners by nature, and thus both need salvation by grace through the Lord Jesus Christ. Both are now one in the body of Christ, the middle wall of partition having been broken down by our Savior, and thus the gospel should be preached among all nations for the purpose of finding God's people, wherever they are and whatever they look like, and making disciples of them. Why, why, why do people insist that God is treating Jews differently today? Why, why, why are people erecting a new middle wall of parition?
Primarily because they have God dealing with people differently through seven dispensations and have the church as a parenthetical existence, sort of an afterthought of God.
It is interesting that less than 1% of the Old Covenant is dealing with futuristic things. Often the future is forced on the actual thought of the Old Testament. A good study in hermeneutics can help this malady.
Cheers,
Jim
It is interesting that less than 1% of the Old Covenant is dealing with futuristic things. Often the future is forced on the actual thought of the Old Testament. A good study in hermeneutics can help this malady.
Cheers,
Jim
The dispensationalist would agree with you up that in this present age there is no difference until a certain point in the future based upon the following scriptures concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the carrying away of Israel in the diaspora:
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
After the "until" the dispensationalist sees a major change in God's dealing with the Jew and Gentile.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The dispensationalist tries to align what is considered "literal" OT prophecy concerning the kingdom of God and the nation of Israel after the "until".
In the meantime, as related to the gospel, everyone is dealt with in the same manner as you have excellently outlined above.
HankD
Last edited:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Most dispensationalist I know get either a blank stare or refuse an answer when you mention the "parenthesis church" to them. Most only know of the so-called pre-trib rapture. The won't have to die if Jesus Christ will just get on the ball!
saturneptune
New Member
Maybe He needs a plan B if plan A fails.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You make the invalid assumption that Israel is the Subject in verse 24.
Strangely the Church is always a problem for some dispensationalists. I don't understand why the body and Bride of Jesus Christ, for which HE died, is a problem.