Should some beats be avoided?

[rbell]

I would hate for these older hymns to just be forgotten and lost now.

On this we agree. We strive here to embrace the richness of many of the great hymns of the faith.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Finally, someone has given something that is a sign that ungodly worship is occuring...
I have asked this before when does music cross the line from worship to entertainment...

Thank you BGTF... although I don't agree with you, you have at least given us a physical benchmark upon which you understand music to cross that line....

Though not all-inclusive, it is a good starting point, and you are welcome.

Just for the record, my son plays drums.. are you saying he is not a Christian?

This is a common over-reaction. I wear swimming trunks sometimes too, but I would never wear them to a church. Some things can be done outside the church that are not meant to be done inside it.

BGTF

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

If Ps. 150 is the list of acceptable instruments in worship, then you better remove the organ and piano

Perhaps you didn't notice the stringed instruments and organ listed there.

BGTF

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

First, this is a mis-interpretation of Ephesians. Second, we've started lapsing into Pythagorean philosophy again. Third, you have absolutely no Scriptural support for your positions.

1. What gives you the right to question my salvation? Shame on you.
2. Patently untrue. We have a traditional service and a contemporary service at my church. To date this year:
   1. CONTEMPORARY SERVICE: 36 Professions of faith, 62 other additions.
   2. TRADITIONAL SERVICE: 25 Professions of faith, 64 other additions.

And, since our CS is slightly larger, the numbers extrapolate almost identically.

So go ahead, "man up," and tell the whole BB right here and now that God is not working in my church. Are you really willing to do something like that??????????

Those are pretty good numbers, but they aren’t quite as good as the numbers Osteen’s ‘church’ puts up, though the liklihood of any of those in his church being genuine is as close to zero as it can be. Perhaps if I had more information on your converts I will be able to make a better judgment, and will be willing to give you a solid answer.

Tell me your thoughts on these, they are all pretty short except the last one, but it should take less than 2 hours to read them all.

http://www.fivesolas.com/watson/reproof.htm
http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/sermons/WITF_023.HTM
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund46.htm
http://www.gracegems.org/24/Ryle_alive_or_dead.htm

Upon reading them, first of all tell me exactly where you fit in, and secondly tell me where your church's converts fit in? After that I will be able to make a reasonable determination.


BGTF

 

[DHK]

1. We have a traditional service and a contemporary service at my church. To date this year:
   1. CONTEMPORARY SERVICE: 36 Professions of faith, 62 other additions.
   2. TRADITIONAL SERVICE: 25 Professions of faith, 64 other additions.

And, since our CS is slightly larger, the numbers extrapolate almost identically.

So go ahead, "man up," and tell the whole BB right here and now that God is not working in my church. Are you really willing to do something like that??????????

By your reasoning if I have a petting zoo in the "sanctuary" of the church, and preach on Noah's Ark, and a number of people get saved, then all is justified. The end justifies the means. Punk music is ok as long as people get saved. Marilyn Manson is ok as long as people get saved. The end justfies the means. This is your reasoning. Whatever will draw people in and get them saved (no matter how secular and profane) will, in the end, glorify God. Is this right? Is this your philosophy?

Can you give one example in the Bible where music was ever used for evangelism?

 

[D28guy]

Annsi,

After saying your DH had some contemporary christian music playing, you said...

"Oh - and neither one of us are being enticed to have sex right now. Just to make it clear. LOL!"

Yeah, but watch out if you and DH play some christian jazz! :laugh:

Mike

 

[rbell]

By your reasoning if I have a petting zoo in the "sanctuary" of the church, and preach on Noah's Ark, and a number of people get saved, then all is justified. The end justifies the means. Punk music is ok as long as people get saved. Marilyn Manson is ok as long as people get saved. The end justfies the means. This is your reasoning. Whatever will draw people in and get them saved (no matter how secular and profane) will, in the end, glorify God. Is this right? Is this your philosophy?

Can you give one example in the Bible where music was ever used for evangelism?

My point (I think it was missed) is that people are responding to Christ, and that they are doing so in our traditional as well as contemporary setting. It isn't about music or worship style. At our church, folks are cultivating relationships with others outside the church, and sharing Christ with them.

The overwhelming portion of those accepting Christ in our church, outside of young children of members (which is less than 25% of our total) comes from folks whose soil has been planted and watered by someone in our church. When they come, they've been prepared. Music isn't the evangelical medium much of the time in our church IMO, and I've never said it was.

Whatever will draw people in and get them saved (no matter how secular and profane) will, in the end, glorify God. Is this right? Is this your philosophy?

Quit being silly. So our using a band and singing newer songs (and newer arrangements of older songs) equals Marilyn Manson? Come on, you can do better than that...

 

[rbell]

Those are pretty good numbers, but they aren’t quite as good as the numbers Osteen’s ‘church’ puts up, though the liklihood of any of those in his church being genuine is as close to zero as it can be. Perhaps if I had more information on your converts I will be able to make a better judgment, and will be willing to give you a solid answer.

Tell me your thoughts on these, they are all pretty short except the last one, but it should take less than 2 hours to read them all.

http://www.fivesolas.com/watson/reproof.htm
http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/sermons/WITF_023.HTM
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund46.htm
http://www.gracegems.org/24/Ryle_alive_or_dead.htm

Upon reading them, first of all tell me exactly where you fit in, and secondly tell me where your church's converts fit in? After that I will be able to make a reasonable determination.


BGTF

Another thing is equally clear; no other man can do it for us. Ministers may preach to us, and pray with us—receive us at the font in baptism, admit us at the Lord's Table, and give us the bread and wine—but they cannot bestow spiritual life. They may bring in regularity in the place of disorder, and outward decency in the place of open sin. But they cannot go below the surface. They cannot reach our hearts. Paul may plant and Apollos water—but God alone can give the increase. (1 Cor. 3:6.) Who then can make a dead soul alive? No one can do it but God. He only who breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, can ever make a dead sinner—a living Christian. He only who formed the world out of nothing in the day of creation, can make man a new creature.

Agreed: Worship style (ANY style) does not supplant the above in any way.

Are you alive? Then see that you prove it by your actions. Be a consistent witness. Let your words, and works, and ways, and tempers all tell the same story. Let not your life be a poor torpid life, like that of a tortoise or a sloth—let it rather be an energetic stirring life, like that of a deer or bird. Let your graces shine forth from all the windows of your life, that those who live near you may see that the Spirit is abiding in your hearts. Let your light not be a dim, flickering, uncertain flame; let it burn steadily, like the eternal fire on the altar, and never become low. Let the savor of your religion, like Mary's precious ointment, fill all the houses where you dwell. Be an epistle of Christ so clearly written, penned in such large bold characters—that he who runs may read it. Let your Christianity be so unmistakable, your eye so single, your heart so whole, your walk so straightforward that all who see you may have no doubt whose you are, and whom you serve....We ought not to be so sluggish and still, that people shall be obliged to come close and look hard, and say, "Is he dead or alive?"

Are you alive? Then see that you prove it by your growth. Let the great change within become every year more evident. Let your light be an increasing light, not like Joshua's sun in the valley of Ajalon, standing still—nor like Hezekiah's sun, going backwards—but ever shining more and more to the very end of your days. Let the image of your Lord, wherein you are renewed, grow clearer and sharper every month. Let it not be like the image and superscription on a coin, more indistinct and defaced the longer it is used. Let it rather become more plain the older it is, and let the likeness of your King stand out more fully and sharply.

Agreed. Those are great words...and they are equally applicable to anyone claiming to be saved. Do all of our folks who walk the aisle hit a "home run" here? Nope...but we have successes and failures among our hymn-singers, chorus-singers, and both-singers (which an overwhelming number of our church is). Thankfully, we have more showing the evidence than not....and we strive as leaders to help them understand the importance of it to the best of our ability.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Agreed: Worship style (ANY style) does not supplant the above in any way.



Agreed. Those are great words...and they are equally applicable to anyone claiming to be saved. Do all of our folks who walk the aisle hit a "home run" here? Nope...but we have successes and failures among our hymn-singers, chorus-singers, and both-singers (which an overwhelming number of our church is). Thankfully, we have more showing the evidence than not....and we strive as leaders to help them understand the importance of it to the best of our ability.

OK, having read all the articles, where do you personally fit in?

BGTF

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Perhaps you didn't notice the stringed instruments and organ listed there.

BGTF

To say that piano and organ fit in with the wording of Ps. 150 is a stretch.

Funny how we make exceptions for our preferences.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

To say that piano and organ fit in with the wording of Ps. 150 is a stretch.

Funny how we make exceptions for our preferences.

Ps 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.


Let's look at the word in verse 4, I think it clearly says ORGANS, so what's a guy to think? And I am sure you won't deny that a piano is a stringed instrument.


BGTF

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Do you really think our modern piano and organ are what the author was referring to?

The Hebrew word that the KJV translates "organs" would be better translated pipe or flute.

 

[DHK]

Quit being silly. So our using a band and singing newer songs (and newer arrangements of older songs) equals Marilyn Manson? Come on, you can do better than that...

It wasn't a matter of being silly. I just used some very extreme examples that I know would never be used by Christians. It is the "slippery slope" argument. Or, where do you draw the line? And, indeed a line must be drawn. There is a church down the street from where I live (not Baptist), that has a mosh pit. They play what would be called CCM. I call it Christian Rock. I don't believe it has the right to be called Christian at all, in spite of what words are put to the music. When these young people mimic the world, use the world's music, throw themselves of the stage into a crowd of screaming teens is it worship or entertainment. What has that got to do with the worship of a holy God. Again, I ask the question: Does the end justify the means? No it doesn't. Even if one soul was saved, the end doesn't justify the means.

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein (Rom.6:1,2)

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[annsni]

Annsi,

After saying your DH had some contemporary christian music playing, you said...



Yeah, but watch out if you and DH play some christian jazz! :laugh:

Mike

LOL - Oh - I know!! DH used to be a jazz musician. Oh the things it does..... EVIL, I tell you! Evil!

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

How many folk singers does it take to change a light bulb?
Three. One to change the bulb and two to write a song about how good the old light bulb was.


How many punk-rock musicians does it take to change a light bulb?
Two. One to screw in the bulb and the other to smash the old one on his forehead.


How many lead singers does it take to change a light bulb?
Just one, but she just stands there holding up the bulb and expects the whole world to revolve around her.

 

[chuck2336]

Ps 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.


Let's look at the word in verse 4, I think it clearly says ORGANS, so what's a guy to think? And I am sure you won't deny that a piano is a stringed instrument.


BGTF

So that means I can rock out to the glory of God with my 1966 Electric Fender Strat. Guitars after all ARE stringed instruments! Cool!

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Do you really think our modern piano and organ are what the author was referring to?

The Hebrew word that the KJV translates "organs" would be better translated pipe or flute.

And what is an organ, but a multi-piped instrument.

BGTF

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

It wasn't a matter of being silly. I just used some very extreme examples that I know would never be used by Christians. It is the "slippery slope" argument. Or, where do you draw the line? And, indeed a line must be drawn. There is a church down the street from where I live (not Baptist), that has a mosh pit. They play what would be called CCM. I call it Christian Rock. I don't believe it has the right to be called Christian at all, in spite of what words are put to the music. When these young people mimic the world, use the world's music, throw themselves of the stage into a crowd of screaming teens is it worship or entertainment. What has that got to do with the worship of a holy God. Again, I ask the question: Does the end justify the means? No it doesn't. Even if one soul was saved, the end doesn't justify the means.

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein (Rom.6:1,2)

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

A hearty amen to that.

BGTF

 

[PastorSBC1303]

And what is an organ, but a multi-piped instrument.

BGTF

You failed to answer my other question. Do you believe our modern piano and organ is what the author had in mind?

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

You failed to answer my other question. Do you believe our modern piano and organ is what the author had in mind?

I believe the piano and the organ are what the Author had in mind.

BGTF