Sign Gifts

[agedman]

Paul lost his gift to heal for Timothy...

Really, where? Did he forget to pack it with the tent making tools?

What makes you think that Paul needed to "heal" Timothy when it was obvious he could not heal himself? Why was not Timothy's condition just as much a "thorn in the flesh" as Paul's and didn't need "healing?"

When you pray in the assembly for one to be "healed" do you actually mean what you pray?

Paul looked at a man and saw the man "had faith to be healed." It does not say Paul healed him.

Do not assume I am making light of the account in Acts 14. Rather, that there is no statement as to a diminishing capacity for a righteous man being led according to God's purpose.

Rather, that as James would declare, "the prayers of a righteous man avails much." Was James wrong? That passage is directly related to healing.

If one hides no iniquity in their heart as to hinder, and of righteousness prays, is God unresponsive or is He compelled by His authority to respond?

 

[agedman]

The ministry of the Apostles is the key. When the last of the Apostles died the Apostolic gifts died with him.

No Apostles, no gifts.

I see you assign the gifts then to only the apostles?

Why?

Did not ALL at Pentecost speak in languages the folks recognized as their home town tongue?

Did not ALL in Acts 46 speak in languages just as at Pentecost to the surprise of the Jews?

I see no limit to only the Apostles holding much authority when it is obvious in two places such a limit was nonexistent.

 

[Alcott]

Sign Gifts?

Yes, usually; unless I'm sending the gift anonymously.

 

[HankD]

We live by faith not by sight. The just shall live by faith.

God can do miracles at His will and if He does and we perceive it by sight here on earth - so what?

Miraculous answers to prayer are God's response to effectual prayers of someone who has been declared righteous.

Such things are NOT SIGNS but answers to prayer coming from an obedient heart of faith.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

IMO tongues is babble
However, if I woke up one morning able to speak Cantonese/Mandarin I would take it as a clue and head to China on a mission.

Another however : I believe that when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled and we meet Him in the air "signs an wonders" may be reestablished here on earth.

HankD

 

[agedman]

IMO tongues is babble

Babble, in the sense that it is known earth languages from the time of the tower is correct.

Babble, in the sense that it is some emotional or agenda driven gibberish in which even the heathens can emulate is correctly labeled as not of God.

However, if I woke up one morning able to speak Cantonese/Mandarin I would take it as a clue and head to China on a mission.

Another however : I believe that when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled and we meet Him in the air "signs an wonders" may be reestablished here on earth.

HankD

This is an interesting aspect of which I haven't done much thinking or exploring.

Are their specific thoughts you would like to share?

 

[HankD]

Babble, in the sense that it is known earth languages from the time of the tower is correct.

Babble, in the sense that it is some emotional or agenda driven gibberish in which even the heathens can emulate is correctly labeled as not of God.



This is an interesting aspect of which I haven't done much thinking or exploring.

Are their specific thoughts you would like to share?

Which aspect tongues or the rapture?

 

[agedman]

Which aspect tongues or the rapture?

either

 

[TCassidy]

I see you assign the gifts then to only the apostles?

I don't remember saying that.

 

[agedman]

I don't remember saying that.

Neither did I.



I had to go back and look for what I thought you said, and sure enough I found this, but may have misread the intention of what you posted.

...

The ministry of the Apostles is the key. When the last of the Apostles died the Apostolic gifts died with him.

No Apostles, no gifts.

Let's see if I have this right, John died close to the end of the first century (read somewhere where not some speculation is made that he lived until even the first decade of the second century).

Here is an account from the diary of a early Christian martyr.

https://danutm.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/st-perpetuas-diary.pdf

Your thoughts?

 

[agedman]

Here is an interesting read from "Christianity Today" that is on topic with this thread.

Signs and Wonders: The Charismatic Power of Early Christianity

I am not in full agreement with some of the information, but I thought it might be good to add to the talking points as far as the cessationist thinking and what is or is not historically accurate. It is also important to note that I offer this purely for the research documentation.

Perhaps those steeped in church history may be able to give validation or not to some of the claims the article makes. Perhaps the article is not valid in the research and it would be good to know.

Caution, the use of the word Charisma is NOT that of some modern charismatic gibberish slobbery. It is used in the sense of a historical sign or wonder performed by the authority and direct purpose of God in the use of spiritual gifts for the benefit of the local assembly of believers.

 

[HankD]

either

OK tongues have ceased.
The rapture is explained in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I hope you are comforted with this passage agedman.


HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Your thoughts?

About what?

 

[Yeshua1]

Really, where? Did he forget to pack it with the tent making tools?

What makes you think that Paul needed to "heal" Timothy when it was obvious he could not heal himself? Why was not Timothy's condition just as much a "thorn in the flesh" as Paul's and didn't need "healing?"

When you pray in the assembly for one to be "healed" do you actually mean what you pray?

Paul looked at a man and saw the man "had faith to be healed." It does not say Paul healed him.

Do not assume I am making light of the account in Acts 14. Rather, that there is no statement as to a diminishing capacity for a righteous man being led according to God's purpose.

Rather, that as James would declare, "the prayers of a righteous man avails much." Was James wrong? That passage is directly related to healing.

If one hides no iniquity in their heart as to hinder, and of righteousness prays, is God unresponsive or is He compelled by His authority to respond?

Its directed towards the Elders in the local church though, and would say that it was NOT them having the gift to heal as Apostles had, but that they prayed in faith, and God in his sovereignty decided to heal!

 

[Yeshua1]

I see you assign the gifts then to only the apostles?

Why?

Did not ALL at Pentecost speak in languages the folks recognized as their home town tongue?

Did not ALL in Acts 46 speak in languages just as at Pentecost to the surprise of the Jews?

I see no limit to only the Apostles holding much authority when it is obvious in two places such a limit was nonexistent.

Was pretty much limited to the time in Acts, in that transition from Old to the New Covenant!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is an interesting read from "Christianity Today" that is on topic with this thread.

Signs and Wonders: The Charismatic Power of Early Christianity

I am not in full agreement with some of the information, but I thought it might be good to add to the talking points as far as the cessationist thinking and what is or is not historically accurate. It is also important to note that I offer this purely for the research documentation.

Perhaps those steeped in church history may be able to give validation or not to some of the claims the article makes. Perhaps the article is not valid in the research and it would be good to know.

Caution, the use of the word Charisma is NOT that of some modern charismatic gibberish slobbery. It is used in the sense of a historical sign or wonder performed by the authority and direct purpose of God in the use of spiritual gifts for the benefit of the local assembly of believers.

Even those who would see the sign gifts ceasing do allow for God to still heal, and to God to still do miracles, real ones, as He determines them to be done, just none gifted as such to do them today!

 

[agedman]

Even those who would see the sign gifts ceasing do allow for God to still heal, and to God to still do miracles, real ones, as He determines them to be done, just none gifted as such to do them today!

I agree that the basic question is not does God still do miracles and heal, the question is does God determine that one be given such a gift that from them healing occurs or some language is able to be used other then their home tongue.

To that, the answer is of course He does.

There are folks who are gifted in skills far above the average. Does not the Scriptures point out that all good and perfect gifts come from above?

Such gifts may not be "manifested" in the same manner for even the Christ did not heal each blind person by spitting in the dirt and applying the mud to the eyes.

Yet, there are those who are certainly gifted. Fit especially (as believers) for the Service to which God has called them.

The mistake is made by some who say, "Peter healed" or "Paul spoke in languages" as if that person had some unnatural gifting. Not true. The prophets of old were given a sign from God. The Apostles were given certain authority by God. The church holds certain authority given by God. God is not disorganized, but with each purpose and mission He has also designated that ability to be successful in His design.

So, neither Peter or Paul could out of their own strength or agenda determine healing, but were lead by the Holy Spirit. "Silver and gold have I none but such as ..., In the NAME of Jesus..."

The same as any believer to this day has the authority to call upon the name of the Lord and seek Him in healing and communicating His truth.

James states, "If there are any sick..."

The gifts of God will not cease until there is no longer a need.

When will there be such a ceasing of the need?

In the Millennial reign.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that the basic question is not does God still do miracles and heal, the question is does God determine that one be given such a gift that from them healing occurs or some language is able to be used other then their home tongue.

To that, the answer is of course He does.

There are folks who are gifted in skills far above the average. Does not the Scriptures point out that all good and perfect gifts come from above?

Such gifts may not be "manifested" in the same manner for even the Christ did not heal each blind person by spitting in the dirt and applying the mud to the eyes.

Yet, there are those who are certainly gifted. Fit especially (as believers) for the Service to which God has called them.

The mistake is made by some who say, "Peter healed" or "Paul spoke in languages" as if that person had some unnatural gifting. Not true. The prophets of old were given a sign from God. The Apostles were given certain authority by God. The church holds certain authority given by God. God is not disorganized, but with each purpose and mission He has also designated that ability to be successful in His design.

So, neither Peter or Paul could out of their own strength or agenda determine healing, but were lead by the Holy Spirit. "Silver and gold have I none but such as ..., In the NAME of Jesus..."

The same as any believer to this day has the authority to call upon the name of the Lord and seek Him in healing and communicating His truth.

James states, "If there are any sick..."

The gifts of God will not cease until there is no longer a need.

When will there be such a ceasing of the need?

In the Millennial reign.

We have though no examples of anyone having the gifts to heal and do miracles and to speak forth unknown real languages as Apostles did!

 

[Jerome]

We have though no examples of anyone having the gifts to heal and do miracles and to speak forth unknown real languages as Apostles did!

Baptist Press

"International Mission Board president David Platt recounted the story -- which, though atypical in Western experience, bore similarities to biblical accounts of raising the dead -- during his report to the Southern Baptist Convention's Executive Committee, Sept. 19 in Nashville.

Christianity Today

International Mission Board Drops Ban on Speaking in Tongues....the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board (IMB) [had] disqualified candidates who spoke in tongues....That changed Wednesday, when the IMB’s trustees, at the prompting of their new president David Platt, approved a new, simplified set of rules....Under the previous rules, candidates who spoke in tongues...were barred. Under the new rules, speaking in tongues does not disqualify

 

[agedman]

Baptist Press

Christianity Today

I am not comfortable at all with the direction Platt has taken the charismatic influence of "tongues."

Gibberish is not tongues in the Bible, and from what I am reading, he seems to have missed the teaching in all his seminary training.

Tongues in the Bible are known languages that are spoken in one's home town. The tongues were specific in use as a translation tool of the Holy Spirit.

In the modern time, God has given great ability in certain folks to work with multiple languages to share the Gospel.

The charismatic froth that disengages the intellect, and is not edifying to the listeners for they have no understanding is not of God.

I recommend that all SBC local churches withhold funds until Platt is either removed to be reeducated, or removed to be permanently replaced.

It is one thing to see answers to prayer, but a whole other matter to favor that which is unholy, no matter how powerful, popular, pretentious, and profane.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not comfortable at all with the direction Platt has taken the charismatic influence of "tongues."

Gibberish is not tongues in the Bible, and from what I am reading, he seems to have missed the teaching in all his seminary training.

Tongues in the Bible are known languages that are spoken in one's home town. The tongues were specific in use as a translation tool of the Holy Spirit.

In the modern time, God has given great ability in certain folks to work with multiple languages to share the Gospel.

The charismatic froth that disengages the intellect, and is not edifying to the listeners for they have no understanding is not of God.

I recommend that all SBC local churches withhold funds until Platt is either removed to be reeducated, or removed to be permanently replaced.

It is one thing to see answers to prayer, but a whole other matter to favor that which is unholy, no matter how powerful, popular, pretentious, and profane.

God can raise the dead IF he so chooses, but none are gifted by Him to do that act, and Tongues in the Bible were always a known language unknown to the speaker.
There were also no sort of "private devotions" prayer Language Tongues going on...