Signs Of The Times - For The Rapture Or Second Coming?

[Allan]

If Yes, can it be argued that Jesus could not have returned before that event, given that Israel figures in the sequence of events of the last days?

Hey Tom,

I'm not really going to be interacting here because these debates while invigorating they are never entered into with the intent to discuss/learn but to belittle, condemn, and otherwise make demeaning accusations by most posters.

However, with regard to your last question I to will ask you a question in turn which should answer your own.

Could Jesus have come before the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad?

 

[Tom Butler]

Hey Tom,

I'm not really going to be interacting here because these debates while invigorating they are never entered into with the intent to discuss/learn but to belittle, condemn, and otherwise make demeaning accusations by most posters.

However, with regard to your last question I to will ask you a question in turn which should answer your own.

Could Jesus have come before the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad?

Allan, full disclosure. Right now, I would describe myself as a historical pre-millenialist (a post-tribber, in other words). But it's not a settled question in my mind. That's one reason I ask questions instead of making flat statements. I have opinions, but they are not firm.

I think the answers to my original question about 1948 and your question about AD 70 is No, and here's my reasoning.

Had Jesus intended to return before AD 70, or before 1948, he would have. The fact that he didn't tells me that he did not intend to. Thus, there was no way it was going to happen. Oh, it COULD have happened had Jesus wanted it to. Conversely, if he didn't want it to happen, it couldn't have.

I asked if the formation of the nation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfilment of prophecy. I think it was, but I recognize that some don't equate this israel with the Israel in prophecy. That's why I asked folks to defend in detail their answer. I can be convinced otherwise.

 

[Allan]

Allan, full disclosure. Right now, I would describe myself as a historical pre-millenialist (a post-tribber, in other words). But it's not a settled question in my mind. That's one reason I ask questions instead of making flat statements. I have opinions, but they are not firm.

I think the answers to my original question about 1948 and your question about AD 70 is No, and here's my reasoning.

Had Jesus intended to return before AD 70, or before 1948, he would have. The fact that he didn't tells me that he did not intend to. Thus, there was no way it was going to happen. Oh, it COULD have happened had Jesus wanted it to. Conversely, if he didn't want it to happen, it couldn't have.

I asked if the formation of the nation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfilment of prophecy. I think it was, but I recognize that some don't equate this israel with the Israel in prophecy.

No problem brother.
I agree with you on the above.

 

[Me4Him]

Why?

Because the KJV is the only Bible I find to to have the minor details 100% correct.

I expect (and find) the same perfection in God's word made scripture as in his word made flesh.

You are making too much of a division here. When Christians are raptured, they will be raptured by the command of Christ. It doesn't matter if the angels then go out to collect the saints, it is still a reaping by Jesus. Something is a whole lot deeper than I am used to.....and it has nothing to do with scripture. :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

Jesus does sent angels to collect his church body, he comes "HIMSELF".

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, (Heaven) there ye may be also.

All "deceased/raptured Saints" (OT saints, Rapture Church, Trib Saints) all return "WITH JESUS",

"NO BODY" is "Resurrected" from the grave in the "FIRST RESURRECTION".

only the souls of the unsaved are still in the grave and they stay there until the GWT.

Resurrection as used by scripture means to be "back on the earth, alive",

not to come out of the grave, because "NNE" comes out of a grave in the "FIRST RESURRECTION", they come with Jesus.

Getting the idea of why I used on the KJV???

 

[TCGreek]

What signs? I'm not easily swayed.

 

[Me4Him]

I'm looking for some help again.

Is the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 the regathering spoken of by the prophets?

Yes or No, please defend your answer.

If Yes, can it be argued that Jesus could not have returned before that event, given that Israel figures in the sequence of events of the last days?

The last question asked Jesus was when would the nation be restored to Israel, at that time Rome had not yet destroyed the nation, so they were asking about a nation restored/led by God.

Jesus told them it wasn't for them to know, But then Daniel's book isn't to be understood either until the time of the end,

obviously, it must be the time of the end because today we understand.

Much of what Jesus said/did points to prophecy, he was born/crucified in the "Evening of the "FOURTH DAY". (Moses's passover lamb)

Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light (Jesus) to rule the day, and the lesser light (Church) to rule the night:

Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:

Jesus deliberated waited until the "FOURTH DAY" before resurrecting Lazarus, foreshadowing his appearence in the Fourth day.

Joh 11:6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

Joh 11:17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection,


When Israel rejected Jesus, he went to the "Samaritans" (Gentiles) and spent "TWO DAYS" (the 5th, 6th days) with them.

This foreshadowed the "TWO DAYS" Israel would be "BLINDED" until the "FULNESS OF THE CHURCH" (Rapture)

Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.

Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: (Israel) in the third day (7th/MK) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

If "HER BRANCH" is to be the last generation before restoration comes, and there's to be Six days of work, another day of rest, (MK)

then Her Branch can only be restored "WITHIN" a genertion of the end of the "Six days".

And that is where we find it, 1948 is well with that timeframe.

from the first Adam until "Abraham" (father of the nation of Israel) was 1948 years,

from the second Adam (Jesus) until Israel was restored as a nation was also 1948 years.

I know this is over the heads of most, but I think it's time they learn there's more to the scripture than just ink/paper/words.

 

[MB]

The Hebrew word translated (KJV-?) as saints is "qadowsh". This word means "holy" or separated as opposed to "common". The most literal translation, I think, is "holy ones" instead of "saints".

It can refer, in context, to God or to angels or to the Jewish nation or to saints (O.T. saints in this case if you hold to "saints" as the translation.)

Given the repeated revelation in other places that the angels shall accompany the 2nd coming of Christ, this passage is most likely referring to angels, not saints.

Even if it is referring to "saints", then it would be referring to both O.T. Jews who were "saints" and N.T. Jews and Gentiles who were Christians. It would simply mean that the Children of the promise, both Jews and Gentiles, will accompany Christ at His 2nd coming.

peace to youraying:

I believe it says all the saints. If it is indeed all the Saints they would have to have had a way to be with the Lord at His coming. This is one of many reasons I believe a pretrib rapture is the only view that fits.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

Because the KJV is the only Bible I find to to have the minor details 100% correct.

Not attempting to hijack the thread, but I guess whether you are a KJV only person or not could have a big impact on whether you hold to pre-trib rapture or not.

While the KJV translation of the bible transcripts is a good translation, it has been shown in many places that the KJV translators took some liberty at times with the origional languages, and in other places didn't quite get it right. In many places where the KJV translators did get the translation correct, the change in the English language over the next 400 years has caused some to mistranslate passages based on the current use of English words instead of the 1611 use of the words.

I expect (and find) the same perfection in God's word made scripture as in his word made flesh.

So do I, but only in the origional languages. The more we understand of the origional languages, the better our translation of God's bible will be.

Getting the idea of why I used on the KJV???

I think I understand why you use the KJV only.

I think you are making a mistake by believing only the KJV is God's Word.

peace to youraying:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

MB,

I believe it says all the saints. If it is indeed all the Saints they would have to have had a way to be with the Lord at His coming. This is one of many reasons I believe a pretrib is the only view that fits

How about "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesised of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly commited, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." - Jude 14-15?

Is this passage a pretrib coming?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[MB]

The Hebrew word translated (KJV-?) as saints is "qadowsh". This word means "holy" or separated as opposed to "common". The most literal translation, I think, is "holy ones" instead of "saints".

It can refer, in context, to God or to angels or to the Jewish nation or to saints (O.T. saints in this case if you hold to "saints" as the translation.)

Given the repeated revelation in other places that the angels shall accompany the 2nd coming of Christ, this passage is most likely referring to angels, not saints.

Even if it is referring to "saints", then it would be referring to both O.T. Jews who were "saints" and N.T. Jews and Gentiles who were Christians. It would simply mean that the Children of the promise, both Jews and Gentiles, will accompany Christ at His 2nd coming.

peace to youraying:

What about this one then. It would have been written in Greek.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
This time the word "Saints" Means saints, not angels or, anything else.
MB

 

[DeafPosttrib]

MB

Does 1 Thess. 3:13 telling us clear that it is "pretrib" coming???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

MB,

How about "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. And to you who are rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power, WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY."?

Is 2 Thess. 1:6-10 speaking of "pretrib" coming???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[canadyjd]

What about this one then. It would have been written in Greek.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
This time the word "Saints" Means saints, not angels or, anything else.
MB

The greek is "agion autou"="holy ones".

The context determines the meaning. (v.12) and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all men, just as we also do for you; (13) so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all....(His saints or His holy ones)

If it means "saints", which it very well may mean, then the passage doesn't support a pre-tribulation rapture.

Paul is praying that God would establish their hearts before Jesus returns. If this return is the "pre-tribulation rapture", then where did the "saints" that are with Jesus come from? They haven't been resurrected yet, how can they be coming with Jesus to meet these Christians if the rapture hasn't occurred yet?

peace to youraying:

 

[ajg1959]

Since God created time, I think it's a stretch to say it's meaningless to Him.

If God created time, then is He bound by it like us? Isnt He "currently" in the past, present and future, all three?

Some people say that when we die, that we sleep until the rapture. But if God is not confined by time, when we die wouldnt we also be loosed from time, and automatically be risen with the dead at the rapture?

Just asking
AJ

 

[webdog]

If God created time, then is He bound by it like us? Isnt He "currently" in the past, present and future, all three?

Some people say that when we die, that we sleep until the rapture. But if God is not confined by time, when we die wouldnt we also be loosed from time, and automatically be risen with the dead at the rapture?

Just asking
AJ

AJ, first let me say glad to see you here. Been praying for you, buddy...

I don't think God creating something means He is bound by it. Example, He created earth...and we know He is not bound to this planet I do agree with your view of His omnipresence, that He is also omnitemporal...existing in the past present and future all at the same time...something we cannot fathom.

 

[Me4Him]

If God created time, then is He bound by it like us? Isnt He "currently" in the past, present and future, all three?

A close reading of scripture will reveal that "TIME" is only present when sin is present.

Heaven is one long day, no night, no marking of time passing,

While in hell, they are tormented "day and night", the marking of time passing.

Some people say that when we die, that we sleep until the rapture.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those killed and in heaven during the trib are aware of things going on on the earth, I'm sure Christians are too.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, (of witnesses) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, (Jesus)

But if God is not confined by time, when we die wouldnt we also be loosed from time, and automatically be risen with the dead at the rapture?

Just asking
AJ

God told Adam "IN THE DAY" you sin, you die,

Spiritually, Adam died the instance (day) he sinned, but "physically", he still lived 930 years, but nevertheless still die "IN THE DAY" he sinned because a "DAY" with God is a 1000 years.

No one has lived a 1000 years on earth since sin enter the world.

However we will live/reign a 1000 years on earth with Jesus and "NOT die",

Proving Jesus removed "ALL OUR SINS".

All the of the "Spiritual" has been/will be manifested here in the "physical world", even "GOD". (Jesus)

 

[MB]

The greek is "agion autou"="holy ones".

The context determines the meaning. (v.12) and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all men, just as we also do for you; (13) so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all....(His saints or His holy ones)

If it means "saints", which it very well may mean, then the passage doesn't support a pre-tribulation rapture.

Paul is praying that God would establish their hearts before Jesus returns. If this return is the "pre-tribulation rapture", then where did the "saints" that are with Jesus come from? They haven't been resurrected yet, how can they be coming with Jesus to meet these Christians if the rapture hasn't occurred yet?

peace to youraying:

There is only one explanation and that is a pretribulation rapture. The rapture happens before His coming to Earth. His coming and the rapture are two separate events. This is the only way I know of where Christ can come with all His saints.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We meet the Lord in the air. If He were comming to Earth why meet us in the air? If we are raptured then taken back down it seems sort senseless to me.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

There is only one explanation and that is a pretribulation rapture. The rapture happens before His coming to Earth. His coming and the rapture are two separate events. This is the only way I know of where Christ can come with all His saints.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We meet the Lord in the air. If He were comming to Earth why meet us in the air? If we are raptured then taken back down it seems sort senseless to me.MB

If you will read a little further into chp.5, you will see that Paul describes that day, in which the saints are rapturedas "the day of the Lord". The phrase "The day of the Lord" is a reference to the day of God's wrath and judgement. It is the second coming of Christ.

The rapture and the 2nd coming/day of the Lord clearly occur on the same day.

Whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't matter. This is the testimony of God's Word. If what we believe conflicts with God's Word, we must change what we believe.

peace to youraying:

 

[MB]

If you will read a little further into chp.5, you will see that Paul describes that day, in which the saints are rapturedas "the day of the Lord". The phrase "The day of the Lord" is a reference to the day of God's wrath and judgement. It is the second coming of Christ.

The rapture and the 2nd coming/day of the Lord clearly occur on the same day.

Whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't matter. This is the testimony of God's Word. If what we believe conflicts with God's Word, we must change what we believe.

peace to youraying:

Yes I read that. Paul does describe it but, he also says we are not appointed to wrath. Futher proof we won't be here.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Since we are not appointed to wrath we will be living with Christ during His wrath on the people of the world.
MB

 

[OldRegular]

Since we are not appointed to wrath we will be living with Christ during His wrath on the people of the world.
MB

I thought we were already living with Jesus Christ, true believers that is.

Colossians 1:27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: