I agree, but there is at least one I know of on this Board.
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Simple way that the bible teaches Free Will
- Thread starter prophecy70
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I agree, but there is at least one I know of on this Board.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Q.F.T.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Could you define “free will”? (I am only asking what YOU mean by the term.)
Do you have the “Free Will” to choose Chicken or Beef for dinner?
Do you have the “Free Will” to believe the Gospel without any help from God?
Do you have the “Free Will” to live a sinless life?
Do you have the “Free Will” to flap your arms and fly just because you believe you can (like the Matrix)?
If I say man has “Free Will”, does that make ALL of the above true?
I mean, the ability for even God to choose another course of action than the current world. I.e. this world is the only possible one due to the attributes of God and His plan. It is a belief argued by C.S. Lewis at once point. I do not like it because logically it argues that sin, pain, Satan, hell, the nations, the Fall, the angels, their rebellion, me, you, and really everything to include Auschwitz were demanded by God's nature.
Why does it seem to me that both sides of this issue can prove their points by using scripture?
I certainly have not resolved the issue but as it sits in me at this time it is a paradox.
God is sovereign while I have free will, at least in "experience".
I was dragged into the kingdom by my heels but at the end of the experience I was willing, and all of it under God's will.
I am like a person who has boundaries but the corral I am in is huge.
I certainly have not resolved the issue but as it sits in me at this time it is a paradox.
God is sovereign while I have free will, at least in "experience".
I was dragged into the kingdom by my heels but at the end of the experience I was willing, and all of it under God's will.
I am like a person who has boundaries but the corral I am in is huge.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Because to an extent, they can.
To me, the problem lies in understanding the details, how opposing views result in a contradiction with other passages that appear to make stand-alone statements, and what the ramifications are for the doctrines of each view.
Certain things about all the opposing views remained a paradox for me over the years as well.
For example:
Up until recently, my problem with "Particular Redemption" was not resolved until I saw certain things in Scripture not making sense unless certain other details emerged during my studies, and how all Scripture is tied to everything else.
I agree.
Again I agree, and I'll add this:
Most wholeheartedly my friend.
I felt that I was willingly "drafted" into the kingdom, and through no effort of my own...
It simply just "happened", and I embraced the Gospel of Christ dying for my sins and making a way for me to be reconciled to the Lord through His life, death, burial and resurrection for me.
Once again I cannot deny how your experience has mirrored my own in many ways.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
This verse is spoken to Saved souls.
No meaning, expression, or intent for it to be applied to the lost, for which there is no Plead, or Offer.
prophecy70
Active Member
By definition it has to, a choice is the power to choose between alternative possibilities.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
You got me there, Steven.
But I also know of others.
To clarify:
My stating that men have no free will is based on what I see in the Scriptures in all the details;
I hold that not all men have "free" ( completely unfettered, unbiased, and uninfluenced ) will...
That it is instead, biased or influenced by something else.
As I see it, the will is an extension of the heart's ( the seat of our affections and desires ) attitude:
In the unbeliever, the will is influenced by the love of sin and the desire to keep committing it ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20 ).
In the believer, the will is influenced by the love of God and the desire to obey Him, despite their struggle against sin in the body of flesh they reside in( Romans 7:14-23, Galatians 5:17 ) .
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Normally I'd agree.
But I don't work on implication.
By our reasoning as men, I see that choice implies ability.
By what I see in Scripture, implication is not the same as cold, hard declaration.
Therefore, based on what God's word actually declares,
Where would you say that man's will, with no influence from the spiritual realm, currently is?
Romans 1:18-32? <---- Haters of God that take pleasure in sin, even knowing that death follows.
Romans 3:10-18? <---- Does not seek God, etc.
John 3:19-20? <--------- Hates the Light and will not come to the Light, lest our sins should be corrected.
Psalms 10:3-11? <----- Not seeking God, not in all our thoughts?
Psalms 14:1-4? <------- Gone aside from God, filthy, no knowledge or love of God.
Jeremiah 13:23? <------ Accustomed to doing evil.
John 7:7? <--------------- Hating Jesus Christ because He testifies that our works are evil.
John 15:18? <------------ Hating Jesus Christ and those who love Him.
Based on Matthew 15:15-20, Luke 6:45 and many others, I see that all that comes out of a corrupt heart is that which is evil, from God's perspective.
What comes out of the abundance of a good heart is good.
To me, the will is the extension of the heart.
It only continually chooses to do that which the heart desires.
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prophecy70
Active Member
Its not an actual choice if there is no ability.
A choice is power to choose between alternative possibilities. You can't argue that, you have to have the abilities to perform either action, if its actually a choice.
If I say choose between flying to the store or walking to the store.
You can't make a choice, you do not possess the ability to fly, therefore, the word "choose" in my sentence is incorrectly used, because Im deciding for you, you are walking to the store.
So that argument seems to fail, because choice necessarily includes ability or its not a choice.
The rest of your argumentation can be explained even in the classical arminian viewpoint, that men has free will but is in need of assistance.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Then there's no choice.
According to what I see in God's word, men have already made the choice...
To love sin and to hate God ( Romans 1:30-32 ).
We don't have the ability, in and of ourselves, to choose any other way.
To us as sinners and apart from the grace of God, we would make no other choice.
Respectfully,
I don't see us as sinners being "free moral agents";
Therefore, I'll go with the summary of "Total Inability" / "Total Depravity ( Moral Corruption )" every time.
I'm sorry, sir, I don't operate on logic where everything is tallied by an equation.
Not that I'm saying that you do,
But I believe God's words, even knowing that some things are hard to be understood.
As I've stated in previous posts and threads, I don't see us as men having "free" will...
Which is the complete freedom to choose between good and evil.
Rather, knowing the judgment of God and knowing the penalty for sin ( evil ), we as sinners not only sin, but we take pleasure in it ( Romans 1:32 ).
That tells me all that I need to know about where the choice and ability really is...
This is why the Lord Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, " ....No man can come to me except it were given to him of my Father."
Craig Hooker
New Member
Can you quote me a definition that says choice implies ability. Can you chose to keep the law of God perfectly?
37818
Well-Known Member
A choice of whom to serve. They had God and His word before them. Without which that choice would not be made, Romans 3:11.
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prophecy70
Active Member
Hypothetically yes.
In every situation he has a choice to obey or disobey but the flesh is weak so won't happen one way every single time....
that assumes more than one simple choice throughout the course of action.
Any dictionary will show you what the definition of choice and options are.
If I put you in a room with two open doors, and you are free to enter either one, thats a choice.
If I put you in a room with one open door, and a closed door, you can not make a choice.
Choice is the power of choosing between alternative possibilities.
Choice | Definition of Choice by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Choice
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prophecy70
Active Member
They must of had ability to make a choice, or they didn't make a choice. Its that simple, based on definitions.
The ones who made a choice to believe
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,e as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”f
Romans 1:32 is talking about those who remain in unrighteousness
Because they didn't learn from the father.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
prophecy70
Active Member
The last one is a category error, you lack the necessary physical apparatus that creates lift. you can not choose to fly.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Defined according to God's word, or our way of thinking?
However, in a very loose sense, I see that God holds men responsible to believe on His Son,
or He would not have declared it to be a sin not to believe ( John 16:9 ).
That is where I conclude that, according to God's word, men do have the choice...
But they turn around and choose based on what they love;
Sin or God.
That, my friend is where the Lord comes in.
Amen.
Therefore, I see that the believer's choice relied on God's choice to teach them about Himself.
This will be my last reply in this thread, as to me I think that we're probably talking past each other.
I wish you well and a good afternoon.
prophecy70
Active Member
Defined according to God's word, or our way of thinking?
However, in a very loose sense, I see that God holds men responsible to believe on His Son,
or He would not have declared it to be a sin not to believe ( John 16:9 ).
That is where I conclude that, according to God's word, men do have the choice...
But they turn around and choose based on what they love;
Sin or God.
That, my friend is where the Lord comes in.
Amen.
Therefore, I see that the believer's choice relied on God's choice to teach them about Himself.
This will be my last reply in this thread, as to me I think that we're probably talking past each other.
I wish you well and a good afternoon.
Thank you for your interaction. God Bless.
Craig Hooker
New Member
Does the Bible say it's hypothetically possible for anyone to keep the law?
Your right, any dictionary will give a definition of choice except none them say they very word choice implies ability. That your presuming
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