Sin Essential to God's Purpose in Christ !

[The Archangel]

Just remember, you are now obligated to always present a context explanation with all your quotes, or you are going to be a hypocrit !

Remember what I've been arguing for--making the point that the author is making. I'm not arguing for posting the entire context; I'm arguing for using the verse(s) in proper context--something you seem to be absolutely unable or unwilling to do.

You seem, even, to be unable to read what I said in context according to the way I intended it, which is no surprise.

I dont have to do that because I believe in Biblical Topical Teaching ! I can see Topics in Scripture and I am able to support those topics from other various portions of scripture !

And that explains your taking almost everything you post out of context. Topical things have their place--but not the way you're doing it. You aren't doing anything remotely topical; you're proof texting.

You'd have us believe that suicide (for example) is OK by citing the passage that says, "Judas went out and hung himself" along with "go ye therefore and do likewise."

It is, undoubtedly, a poor way to "rightly divide the word of truth."

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

Remember what I've been arguing for--making the point that the author is making. I'm not arguing for posting the entire context; I'm arguing for using the verse(s) in proper context--something you seem to be absolutely unable or unwilling to do.

You seem, even, to be unable to read what I said in context according to the way I intended it, which is no surprise.



And that explains your taking almost everything you post out of context. Topical things have their place--but not the way you're doing it. You aren't doing anything remotely topical; you're proof texting.

You'd have us believe that suicide (for example) is OK by citing the passage that says, "Judas went out and hung himself" along with "go ye therefore and do likewise."

It is, undoubtedly, a poor way to "rightly divide the word of truth."

The Archangel

The burden of proof is on you to prove your accusations that I took something out of context, show how and why and give proper meaning !

 

[The Archangel]

Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Adam was Created for the Mystery that was in Christ, which was hid in God, who all things were Created because of !

Those words in Vs 9 "who created all things by Jesus Christ"

That word by preposition dia :


I.through

A.of place

i.with


ii.in



B.of time

i.throughout


ii.during



C.of means

i.by


ii.by the means of




II.through

A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

i.by reason of


ii.on account of


iii.because of for this reason


iv.therefore


v.on this account

It serves a multitude of meanings here, The World was Created In Christ, meaning Adam and the World in his Loins, the World was Created on account of Christ, and by means of Christ as Mediator !

There are several deep problems with what you've posted...

First, the passage in which you cite the word "dia" is only part of the one textual tradition--and the originality of the phrase is, in the words of one author, "Clearly secondary."

It is by no means heretical to say that Jesus is the agent of creation--since, for example, Revelation 4 ascribes to Him the same thing.

Even if the clause you cite was the primary reading, you'd still be dead-wrong.

Here's the clause in Greek:

διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
​

The Greek preposition διὰ occurs governing two cases--the genitive and the accusative and cannot--by definition--serve both of the meanings.

"Jesus Christ" in the clause cited is in the genitive case, therefore the preposition διὰ means "through" as in "by means of." In this case, the usages is purely instrumental--as in the creation was created through Jesus Christ.

When coupled with the accusative the preposition διὰ can mean "on account of." But it does not mean that when coupled with the genitive.

So, your conclusion "The World was Created In Christ, meaning Adam and the World in his Loins, the World was Created on account of Christ" isn't allowed for in Greek.

You are simply wrong about this.

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

There are several deep problems with what you've posted...

First, the passage in which you cite the word "dia" is only part of the one textual tradition--and the originality of the phrase is, in the words of one author, "Clearly secondary."

It is by no means heretical to say that Jesus is the agent of creation--since, for example, Revelation 4 ascribes to Him the same thing.

Even if the clause you cite was the primary reading, you'd still be dead-wrong.

Here's the clause in Greek:

διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
​

The Greek preposition διὰ occurs governing two cases--the genitive and the accusative and cannot--by definition--serve both of the meanings.

"Jesus Christ" in the clause cited is in the genitive case, therefore the preposition διὰ means "through" as in "by means of." In this case, the usages is purely instrumental--as in the creation was created through Jesus Christ.

When coupled with the accusative the preposition διὰ can mean "on account of." But it does not mean that when coupled with the genitive.

So, your conclusion "The World was Created In Christ, meaning Adam and the World in his Loins, the World was Created on account of Christ" isn't allowed for in Greek.

You are simply wrong about this.

The Archangel

This is nothing but pride and vain glory !

 

[The Archangel]

The same thing is indicated in Col 1:16

16 For by[in] him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him[Christ], and for him[Christ]:

This means that Adam was Created in Christ !

Nope.

What is Paul's point? If you look at the beginning of the verse you have the causal conjunction ὅτι which tells us that we're seeing an explanation of something previous... So, we must look to verse 15. Here's the entire passage:

[15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [16] For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [17] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [18] And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [19] For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [20] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (Colossians 1:15-20 ESV)
​

Christ it the point of this passage. There is no mention or inference of Adam here. The clause "For by him all things were created" explains what Paul's meaning of v. 15. Further, the word "by" is the preposition ἐν plus the dative, meaning that Christ is the agent of creation. Paul is stating that God made all things and Christ was the doer of the work, the agent.

I could go on, but there's no need. Paul is not arguing that Adam was created "in Christ." Paul's point is the preeminence of Christ. He's making no comment at all about Adam, sin, etc. To come to the conclusion you've come to here is to do great violence to the text.

Now by Adam being Created in Christ, it was also for an Redemptive Purpose, and this is why also he was made or Created in the Image and Likeness of God in the beginning Gen 1:26-27

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Again, this is in accordance to the Mystery hid in God Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 187

What was that mystery, anyway?

The answer is in Ephesians 3:3--where Paul begins to talk about "mystery," and it clearly refers to God's plan to redeem the world. But, is Paul intending to say that God created sin here? No, of course not.... Paul is referencing his commission to preach the Gospel. He is in no way referencing what you say he's referencing.

Paul's intent in this passage (and others) is quite different from what you are saying....

Again, you are doing great violence to the text and engaging in the worst manner of proof-texting, refusing to "rightly divide the word of truth."

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

archangel

There is no mention or inference of Adam here.

Was Adam Created ?

 

[savedbymercy]

Yes, all things were Created in Jesus Christ Col 1:16

16 For by[en] him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Now, Adam was Created ! Gen 1:26-27

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man/אָדָם 'adam
in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Adam was Created in Christ ! So He was Created for a Redemptive Purpose that would reconcile him from the consequences of sin Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

This was part of God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus before the World Was ever Created Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[The Archangel]

Proof-texting is what you're doing... Nothing more.

Paul's point in Ephesians is not the point you're making, and it never will be.

Yes, all things were Created in Jesus Christ Col 1:16

16 For by[en] him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Now, Adam was Created ! Gen 1:26-27

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man/אָדָם 'adam
in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Adam was Created in Christ ! So He was Created for a Redemptive Purpose that would reconcile him from the consequences of sin Col 1:20

The ἐν doesn't mean "in Christ" like you're assuming it does. The ἐν of v. 15 means "by means of." So, it is saying that Adam was created by Christ, not "in Christ."

No one debates that Adam was created; no one debates that Christ was the agent of his creation. The problem is the wrong conclusion you're drawing from elsewhere and placing upon the text.

Adam was Created in Christ ! So He was Created for a Redemptive Purpose that would reconcile him from the consequences of sin Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Again, no one is debating that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

But, the text doesn't say that sin was "created" for that purpose.

Sin is not a "thing;" it is the absence of obedience--just as darkness is not a "thing;" it is the absence of light.

This was part of God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus before the World Was ever Created Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

And what, specifically as that purpose? The answer is in v.10 (especially since v.11 is linked to v. 10 by κατά):

[10] so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 3:10 ESV)​

So, the text clearly states that the wisdom of God being bade known through the church is in accordance with God's eternal plan.

You can't cite v.9 and then v.11 and just skip v.10. Paul's arguments simply don't work that way. He argues quite linearly using many linking words. If you were to diagram his writing.... it would work from the top left of the page, diagonally, to the bottom right. No parts of it are omit-able, unless you don't care about the point he's making....

The conclusions you're placing upon the text are not found in the text--they are a product of your own "philosophy" and, in many instances, are in direct opposition to the clear meaning of the text, especially the prepositions.

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

archangel

Proof-texting is what you're doing... Nothing more.

Evading the Truth is what you are doing, and nothing else !

What does Col 1:16 say ?

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

What is that word by in the original scholar joe ?

A scholar, was Adam Created ? Yes or No ?

 

[savedbymercy]

archangel

And that explains your taking almost everything you post out of context

Thats a lie, I am stating what is found in the context ! There is nothing unbiblical about extracting from a given scripture within a context a Truth that is there !

Again you have no biblical support for expository teaching, no example of any biblical writer using that method. Also to use the flimsy excuse that one is to study to show themselves approved, rightly dividing the word of Truth, does not mean one has to be a expository teacher, as long as a person studies the word of God, then that qualifies them. Your tatics are man centered and pharisical, not at all God Centered and Christ Centered !

 

[Don]

Matthew 10:14
Mark 6:11
Luke 9:5

 

[BobRyan]

God does not foreordain that which He foreknows. But He does foreordain that all things will work together for good - and ultimately reveal some part of God's character to the universe - in a way that glorifies God.

 

[OldRegular]

archangel



Evading the Truth is what you are doing, and nothing else !

What does Col 1:16 say ?

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

What is that word by in the original scholar joe ?

A scholar, was Adam Created ? Yes or No ?

And what does Scripture say about the creation of the universe and man?

Genesis 1:27, 28, 31; Genesis 2:1, 2; Ecclesiastes 7:29
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:1. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
29. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Now find one passage of Scripture that shows the above Scripture is false!

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

The OP should be banned for the blasphemy he speaks against the character of God.

 

[savedbymercy]

And what does Scripture say about the creation of the universe and man?

Genesis 1:27, 28, 31; Genesis 2:1, 2; Ecclesiastes 7:29
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:1. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
29.Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Now find one passage of Scripture that shows the above Scripture is false!

Rabbit Trail from subject ,for the world was created for a Redemptive Purpose centered in Jesus Christ who is also God !

 

[savedbymercy]

The OP should be banned for the blasphemy he speaks against the character of God.

Thats a false accusation, and you should be able to prove it. The Death of Christ for sin brought Glory to God in the Highest, in that He defeated it upon His Cross, and all this was purposed by God before the foundation. Now you need to prove how anything from the OP on blasphemes God's character !

 

[savedbymercy]

bob ryan

God does not foreordain that which He foreknows.

Do you have a scripture that states that ?

Here is one that appears to contradict your statement Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

From here that which He foreknew was predetermined by His Counsel !

 

[OldRegular]

And what does Scripture say about the creation of the universe and man?

Genesis 1:27, 28, 31; Genesis 2:1, 2; Ecclesiastes 7:29
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:1. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
29. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Now find one passage of Scripture that shows the above Scripture is false!

Rabbit Trail from subject ,for the world was created for a Redemptive Purpose centered in Jesus Christ who is also God !

You are the ultimate hypocrite. You whine "rabbit Trail" yet in your OP and succeeding posts you presented the following blasphemous statements making God the author of sin:

For these things were set before and appointed the Son of God in the Eternal Counsels before the world began, so it should be quite obvious the world began in order to accomplish the Eternal Purpose in Christ, and hence sin was essential to that Purpose !

From your post #2

That God is the First and Primary cause of the evil in our hearts is perceived by the godly david, for his prayer here indicates

These verses also show that the truly godly do not believe in freewill of man ! The corruptions of mens hearts are under the government of God's purpose, along with any that may entice them; which goes for the devil, our own evil nature such as James 1:13 ; the originating cause of all evil, to include moral evil, is the will , purpose, or predetermined counsel of God !

From your post #90

I know I am, along with being right about this World being Created specifically for a Redemptive Purpose, an Eternal Purpose grounded in Christ, that necessitated sin and death coming into the world by Adam's disobedience !

I suggest the following Scripture for your edification given your continual blasphemy of God!

2Peter 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[savedbymercy]

You are the ultimate hypocrite. You whine "rabbit Trail" yet in your OP and succeeding posts you presented the following blasphemous statements making God the author of sin:



From your post #2



From your post #90



I suggest the following Scripture for your edification given your continual blasphemy of God!

2Peter 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

I suggest you quit false accusations !

 

[OldRegular]

I suggest you quit false accusations !

You are shown to be guilty of blasphemy by your own words. I presented the exact words you posted.

I suggest once again the following Scripture for your benefit given your continual blasphemy of God!

2Peter 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Amplified somewhat!

Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.