Sins a Christian cannot commit...

[charles_creech78]

And again Charles, here is what you said in post #47:

Your position is sinless perfection. Your last statement is that you are as perfect as Christ is.
If you have changed you position since then I am glad to hear of it. It seems that you have changed looking at the post that you more recently posted. I hope that is the case, and not what you have stated in these former posts.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore PERFECT, even as your Father which is in heaven is PERFECT

 

[tinytim]

This is where you need to learn what the Greek means when it says "perfect" It means Complete, or mature.. .not "without sin".

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.


Jesus is telling us to be complete.. .to grow into all he has planned for us to be...
And one way to do that is to recognize our sinfulness even after we are saved... and repent of it.

 

[charles_creech78]

This is where you need to learn what the Greek means when it says "perfect" It means Complete, or mature.. .not "without sin".

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.


Jesus is telling us to be complete.. .to grow into all he has planned for us to be...
And one way to do that is to recognize our sinfulness even after we are saved... and repent of it.

No this what it means.Mt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Mt 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I added that because of the persecution that DHK was still give me. I said I was sorry. I did not say that I was sinless. I said there was some sin that I do not do and we will leave it at that. I only have to explain my self to God and I have already done that.

 

[tinytim]

 

[HankD]

No this what it means.Mt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Mt 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I added that because of the persecution that DHK was still give me. I said I was sorry. I did not say that I was sinless. I said there was some sin that I do not do and we will leave it at that. I only have to explain my self to God and I have already done that.

God bless you brother Creech.

HankD

 

[rbell]

I'm not sure if we accomplished much in 225 or so posts...but at least the rhetoric got toned down a couple of notches from what it was here and on similar threads.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm not sure if we accomplished much in 225 or so posts...but at least the rhetoric got toned down a couple of notches from what it was here and on similar threads.

Perhaps, rbell, the thread did not accomplish what you had hoped, but it has offered something interesting (to me) and important (to all Christians)--this discussion has helped me to understand--on a more personal and intense level--some of the attitudes I was exposed to growing up in southern Baptist churches. I heard this "sinless Christian" idea before--and struggled with it for a time as a youth because I knew I, myself, certainly was NOT sinless (I've always struggled with pride). In reading these posts, it makes me wonder if all those folks through the years weren't merely misinterpreting scripture--and inside in a constant state of turmoil and torment hoping to live that "perfect" life. How sad, when Grace is all they ever needed!

But, the important thing I saw here was an intense discussion between godly men--all hoping to educate and inform. And apologies and HUMAN grace. It is nice to see, especially when discussions often get so very, very heated. Thank you all for that.
:1_grouphug:

 

[Brother Bob]

I'm not sure if we accomplished much in 225 or so posts...but at least the rhetoric got toned down a couple of notches from what it was here and on similar threads.

If you think you changed anyone's mind you are fooling yourself. Some just let you have your way for peace sake. In my opinion the rhetoric was coming from you as one. I changed my mind and am making this one post.
The word still stands and if you die an adultereous, hell will be your home.

1Cr 15:58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

You are still wrong to say Christians can commit any sin known unto mankind. [Personal attack removed] and I believe in a strong God, of which said, "Father, I have lost none, saving the son of perdition". Who was a devil from the beginning.

Only scripture was quoted from the side that opposed you, but you and the others can not say the same.

How many of you tell your converts, that if you fall back into perdition, not to worry, got you covered no matter what sin you commit. God help us all for the fables being taught in the churches today.

Rom 8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The Spirit does not lead you down that path of destruction. If you are being led down that path, it is the devil leading you and he is your master.

BBob,

 

[tinytim]

Bob, HOW does Jesus keep us from committing adultery...

Does he step in front of the man, and put up a force field?
This seems so strange coming from an Arminian...

YOu don't beleive God chose people for salvation, but you beleive he will do away with our free will after salvation.

That is an inconsistancy in your theology..

Freewill before salvation, forced obedience afterward...

And why are you so fixated on Adultery?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, HOW does Jesus keep us from committing adultery...

Does he step in front of the man, and put up a force field?
This seems so strange coming from an Arminian...

YOu don't beleive God chose people for salvation, but you beleive he will do away with our free will after salvation.

That is an inconsistancy in your theology..

Freewill before salvation, forced obedience afterward...

And why are you so fixated on Adultery?

I use adultery because it gets right to the point, without a lot of running around. Do you not want to be kept by the "power" of God?

1Pe 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Your faith will be tried, will you be able to stand is the question, or say "oops"?

Rev 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Hbr 10:38Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

There are many many more scripture than the one in John which says "he that sayeth he hath no sin, is a liar", there is another scripture right after that on in the same book "John" that says, "that which is born of God, cannot sin. "

You all hang you hat on that one scripture of which I believe you misunderstand.


BBob,

 

[tinytim]

So are you willing to add other sins that we are not capable of committing...
I understand you using adultery... to cut right to the point.. but there has to be other sins as well....

Charles said Adultery, drunkenness, pedophiles, and things that destroy our temple (body)..

Would you agree with those?
Will you be able to add more?

What about fear, like rbell brought up in the OP, (or near the OP)?...
why or why not...

And if God can keep us from the big sins, why doesn't he keep us from the small ones like pride, failure to witness, gossip, phariseeism, etc.?

Everyone of us here has agreed we are not sinless...
So, since God is so strong to keep us from adultery, why not keeping us from gossipping about the adulterer...and calling him or her unsaved?

 

[Brother Bob]

So are you willing to add other sins that we are not capable of committing...
I understand you using adultery... to cut right to the point.. but there has to be other sins as well....

Charles said Adultery, drunkenness, pedophiles, and things that destroy our temple (body)..

Would you agree with those?
Will you be able to add more?

What about fear, like rbell brought up in the OP, (or near the OP)?...
why or why not...

And if God can keep us from the big sins, why doesn't he keep us from the small ones like pride, failure to witness, gossip, phariseeism, etc.?

Everyone of us here has agreed we are not sinless...
So, since God is so strong to keep us from adultery, why not keeping us from gossipping about the adulterer...and calling him or her unsaved?

Those are the sins, He uses the chastisement rod for. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Pride, scripture says "lift up your heads and raise up your eyes, your redemption draweth nigh.

As far as the sins a Christian cannot commit, Christ said He would put those laws in our hearts and our minds and they should be in yours also.

If the laws in your heart are not enough, which is where the Spirit of God leads His children, then try the Big Ten. They pretty well cover it.

Also, scripture says the steps of a "good man" are ordered of the Lord, and I know He does not lead you down the road of perdition.

Tim; just common sense, is to teach peole to cease from sin and serve the Lord. You cannot serve two masters, If you are serving the devil, forget about the Lord, for He will not have you. If you are serving the Lord, the devil will do everything known to try to get you to fail, but if your faith and trust is in the Lord, you shall never fall. That is scripture and the truth.

Some say, you can't do it. Well I say at least die trying, then you can tell the Lord I tried. Maybe He will have mercy on your soul, I do not know.

One thing I want all to understand, I question no one's salvation, I am only speaking what I think scripture teaches us on how a Christian must walk.

The reasons he don't keep us from the little ones is He made a way for them to be corrected also, and if we were completely sinless, then we would become so proud, we would quit calling upon the Lord.

Tim; think about all the non-Christians that read this board and they read that they can become saved and if they were to fall back into sin, its ok, we still are saved. Don't you think that is the wrong message to teach the world. I certainly do.

raying:

BBob

 

[rbell]

The word still stands and if you die an adultereous, hell will be your home.

The Spirit does not lead you down that path of destruction. If you are being led down that path, it is the devil leading you and he is your master.

Actually, the Word says that if we die not knowing Christ, then hell will be our home.

The Spirit does not lead you down that path of destruction. If you are being led down that path, it is the devil leading you and he is your master.

It is obvious what you are insinuating here. I find it sad you would resort to such ad hominems.


[Removal of Quoted Personal Attack]

Only scripture was quoted from the side that opposed you, but you and the others can not say the same.

That is also a lie. My posts on this subject have been scriptural...and the detailed PM I sent you was rife with it. You knowingly have posted an untruth. I find that disturbing.

How many of you tell your converts, that if you fall back into perdition, not to worry, got you covered no matter what sin you commit. God help us all for the fables being taught in the churches today.

That is another lie. Romans 6:1-2 has been prominently mentioned here. I've talked about it at length. Please quit lying about me, my ministry, and my theology.

If you think you changed anyone's mind you are fooling yourself. Some just let you have your way for peace sake. In my opinion the rhetoric was coming from you as one.

Fine, think what you want. Do you feel better now?



I do not appreciate your denigrating my faith, nor do I appreciate how you misrepresent what I say. I also do not appreciate the ugliness you have shown towards me in the PM's you've sent. Shall I post those here?

I responded to you, in a detailed PM, my beliefs on this issue. You have completely ignored that PM's contents and continued to misrepresent my words (and since I have explained myself, I can only assume it is on purpose).

You do realize, don't you, that "bearing false witness" is one of the Ten Commandments?

Bob, you are several years my senior, and have been a Christian for a long time. But your posts (both private and public) have taken a nasty, accusatory tone. That is beneath you. I'm requesting you to demonstrate more maturity in your posts.

 

[rbell]

I use adultery because it gets right to the point, without a lot of running around. Do you not want to be kept by the "power" of God?

No, you use adultery, but don't use other sins mentioned in 1 Cor. 6 and Rev. 21--such as fear--because you know you've committed those sins...and that upsets your theological apple cart.

We can rail on "someone committing adultery can't be saved," but if we (employing the same Scripture) say, "Someone fearful can't be saved..." well, then, that hits too close to home.

But since I don't have a "list," (outside of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) then I don't have an inconsistency to defend.

Thanks for making my point for me.

I changed my mind and am making this one post.

I knew you couldn't stay away! :saint: :thumbs:

 

[rbell]

All you have to do is read the last 4 or 5 posts and see that it is you who call other posters liars, bearing falsewithness, using hateful tones, ordering people as if you are a moderator.
You are the one at fault here, Tim and I were having a fruitful discussion and low and behold, here come rebell, with all of his nasty and unchristian remarks. You need a attutude adjustment.

The reason I have not been on this thread, is solely because of you, I will now bow out and leave you with your hate.

BBob,

OK, mods....let Brother Bob have his wish and let's shut 'er down.

I'm sorry, Brother Bob, that you've felt the need to resort to name-calling. My handle is rbell. Please use that, and refrain from name-calling. Thanks.

My remarks have been neither nasty nor un-Christian. You will find no examples of such from me on this thread. If you find any, please bring them to my attention.

I hope you have a good day. :wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

No, you use adultery, but don't use other sins mentioned in 1 Cor. 6 and Rev. 21--such as fear--because you know you've committed those sins...and that upsets your theological apple cart.

We can rail on "someone committing adultery can't be saved," but if we (employing the same Scripture) say, "Someone fearful can't be saved..." well, then, that hits too close to home.

But since I don't have a "list," (outside of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) then I don't have an inconsistency to defend.

Thanks for making my point for me.


I knew you couldn't stay away! :saint: :thumbs:

Then apparently you missed the appointment when the Lord put them in our hearts and minds.

I knew you couldn't stay away! :saint: :thumbs:

This comment proves that you were trying to set me up. I came on because you mistakenly tried to take credit for toning the threads down, when it was Charles, who bowed out and graceously apoligized so as to bring peace. I never once saw anyone on your side apologize, not once.

BBob,

 

[tinytim]

Some say, you can't do it. Well I say at least die trying, then you can tell the Lord I tried. Maybe He will have mercy on your soul, I do not know.

What do you mean, you do not know.. does your beliefs include the belief that it is impossible to know if you will go to Heaven until you die...?

Tim; think about all the non-Christians that read this board and they read that they can become saved and if they were to fall back into sin, its ok, we still are saved. Don't you think that is the wrong message to teach the world. I certainly do.

I see this differently... As one person has already said they grew up in this "Christian can not sin" mentality, and it led to nothing but guilt...
I see it as a spin off of the prosperity Gospel...
When a prosperity preacher preaches that "if you are living right, you will be rich"... the poor christian out there begins doubting if they are living right because they are not driving a BMW... it produces guilt, and they become useless to God... Guilt keeps them from serving God.

Just like when those that believe like you say that real Christians don't sin certain sins,, when a Christian does sin one of those sins... they can just throw up their hands and say "Well, I must have been fooling myself" And they just quit on Christ.

I don't think the truth is ever the wrong message.
And the truth is, even as Christians, we are still capable of sinning.
That is why us preachers must still preach against sinning.
People are still capable of sinning.

It sets people up for a fall if we teach them they are incapable of sinning certain sins...
Because when they start to believe it, they are sitting ducks for Satan to come along and destroy their faith.

Suppose I believed I could never commit adultery...
Satan can play with that and put thoughts in my head... "its OK to look, after all, you know you won't go all the way" See how slick Satan can be...

We both are against sin...

 

[Brother Bob]

What do you mean, you do not know.. does your beliefs include the belief that it is impossible to know if you will go to Heaven until you die...?



I see this differently... As one person has already said they grew up in this "Christian can not sin" mentality, and it led to nothing but guilt...
I see it as a spin off of the prosperity Gospel...
When a prosperity preacher preaches that "if you are living right, you will be rich"... the poor christian out there begins doubting if they are living right because they are not driving a BMW... it produces guilt, and they become useless to God... Guilt keeps them from serving God.

Just like when those that believe like you say that real Christians don't sin certain sins,, when a Christian does sin one of those sins... they can just throw up their hands and say "Well, I must have been fooling myself" And they just quit on Christ.

I don't think the truth is ever the wrong message.
And the truth is, even as Christians, we are still capable of sinning.
That is why us preachers must still preach against sinning.
People are still capable of sinning.

It sets people up for a fall if we teach them they are incapable of sinning certain sins...
Because when they start to believe it, they are sitting ducks for Satan to come along and destroy their faith.

Suppose I believed I could never commit adultery...
Satan can play with that and put thoughts in my head... "its OK to look, after all, you know you won't go all the way" See how slick Satan can be...

We both are against sin...

Well, I can say I have not committed adultery as a Christian and satan has not got me.

What do I mean "I do not know if God will have mercy". I don't know who God will have mercy on, do you?

Sin brings guilt. A person would never repent, if he felt no guilt. If you get members who never felt guilt, then you will have some who will commit dreadful sinful acts.

"fooling theirselves", you think that everyone who crys "Lord Lord" is saved. Was wondering if you have ever excluded anyone and for what?

Capable of sinning. Of course but not those sins unto death, where you not only sin against God, you sin against your own body, with Jesus on the inside. Nope, I don't believe that.

Sitting ducks. If you don't have the real thing "your sins will find you out" that is scripture.

Look and sin, are you telling me you can't just move on? Are we so weak that we just can't move on, or keep our mouth shut to keep from lying.

We must move on, even when others call us liars, you name it. It is just a fulfillment of the bible.

Time will come when they shall not endure sound doctrine, but turn from the truth unto fables.

I know people can live the way I say we must. If you do not believe it, come over in the Old Regular Baptist sometimes and learn.

BBob, raying:

 

[Joe]

So are you willing to add other sins that we are not capable of committing...
I understand you using adultery... to cut right to the point.. but there has to be other sins as well....

Charles said Adultery, drunkenness, pedophiles, and things that destroy our temple (body)..

Would you agree with those?
Will you be able to add more?

What about fear, like rbell brought up in the OP, (or near the OP)?...
why or why not...

And if God can keep us from the big sins, why doesn't he keep us from the small ones like pride, failure to witness, gossip, phariseeism, etc.?

Everyone of us here has agreed we are not sinless...
So, since God is so strong to keep us from adultery, why not keeping us from gossipping about the adulterer...and calling him or her unsaved?

You have a wonderful grasp, imo, of Christ's sacrifice for us on the Cross regarding his mercy and grace.

It is possible for anyone who has committed any sin to be saved.
But I think we differ upon the probability of it.
We will all agree that only the Lord knows who is saved.

But imo, we can't lump all sins together because each one is at a different level, gluttony likely being the lesser sin one can commit.

I we look at each sin with the examples in the bible, and what the Lord has said about each one, and apply it to THAT exact situaiton, the person may or may not be saved.

EXAMPLE:

1. Let's say a guy was in a car committing adultery. The female says "Someone just drove by". Right then, he has an out. She will understand why he put on the breaks, and wishes to stop without feeling as obligated to her.

2. Now duplicate that scinereo except a car didn't drive by. It would be totally out of his own willpower (it appears) to put the breaks on, and now he owes more of an explanation to her for stopping because she is going to expect it.

Which one is more likely to be saved?

Consider these two verses-

[i]"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." 1 Corinthians 10:13 (NIV)
Here it is again...

“But remember that the temptations that come into your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can't stand up against it. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it.” 
1 Corinthians 10:1[/I]3

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Both are Christians who accepted the Lord as their Savor and are backsliding. Both committed adultery. Both died right when they started the car to leave where they were parked to take the woman home.

Who is saved?

Though Jesus died for all of our sins, imo, we can't really compare one sin to another,even if it is lumped in a verse together. That may just be showing some similiarities. Doesn't always make both completely equal.
Brother Bob feels the guy is in hell.
You feel is in Heaven if he really was a Christian.
I feel it is possible he is in heaven

I have to take off to work now, but will check back later

 

[Brother Bob]

You have a wonderful grasp, imo, of Christ's sacrifice for us on the Cross regarding his mercy and grace.

It is possible for anyone who has committed any sin to be saved.
But I think we differ upon the probability of it.
We will all agree that only the Lord knows who is saved.

But imo, we can't lump all sins together because each one is at a different level, gluttony likely being the lesser sin one can commit.

I we look at each sin with the examples in the bible, and what the Lord has said about each one, and apply it to THAT exact situaiton, the person may or may not be saved.

EXAMPLE:

1. Let's say a guy was in a car committing adultery. The female says "Someone just drove by". Right then, he has an out. She will understand why he put on the breaks, and wishes to stop without feeling as obligated to her.

2. Now duplicate that scinereo except a car didn't drive by. It would be totally out of his own willpower (it appears) to put the breaks on, and now he owes more of an explanation to her for stopping because she is going to expect it.

Which one is more likely to be saved?

Consider these two verses-

[i]"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." 1 Corinthians 10:13 (NIV)
Here it is again...

“But remember that the temptations that come into your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can't stand up against it. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it.” 
1 Corinthians 10:1[/i]3

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Both are Christians who accepted the Lord as their Savor and are backsliding. Both committed adultery. Both died right when they started the car to leave where they were parked to take the woman home.

Who is saved?

Though Jesus died for all of our sins, imo, we can't really compare one sin to another,even if it is lumped in a verse together. That may just be showing some similiarities. Doesn't always make both completely equal.
Brother Bob feels the guy is in hell.
You feel is in Heaven if he really was a Christian.
I feel it is possible he is in heaven

I have to take off to work now, but will check back later

A good honest post Joe. I respect your feeling, but if he is in heaven, it goes against the scripture you quoted on who shall not inherit the Kingdom.

Let me make something clear. There are people who have membership, who have not been saved. These are the people who commit such sins and I do not believe these people are lost forever, but can repent and come back by the door and be a true Christian, with "wisdom" many will not have, for they never experienced it.

I truly believe to encourage those people to stay as members, instead of "get right with the Lord and then come and have a home with us", I believe to encourage them to stay in as they are, will cause that person to settle down on something short of salvation. raying: