Sixty Days of Jail Time for Backyard Bible Study

[freeatlast]

In 2008, neighbors complained that Michael Salman was hosting bible studies in his backyard. He was cited by the city of Phoenix....
http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2012/20120625002-michael-salman.html

What is your thoughts, is the city correct? I suggest that you watch the video.

 

[targus]

In 2008, neighbors complained that Michael Salman was hosting bible studies in his backyard. He was cited by the city of Phoenix....
http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2012/20120625002-michael-salman.html

What is your thoughts, is the city correct? I suggest that you watch the video.

He had many other options than breaking the law.

He could have had fewer people for the bible studies.

He could have found an alternative site.

Zoning laws are laws like any other.

I used to live next door to a pastor that did the same sort of thing.

The people that would attend would park their cars on our front lawn.

His group would spill over into our backyard.

The next day I would be out in my yard picking up paper plates and plastic cups.

I didn't call the police - but I didn't care for it either.

I thought that it was a very bad witness for his church.

 

[freeatlast]

He had many other options than breaking the law.

He could have had fewer people for the bible studies.

He could have found an alternative site.

Zoning laws are laws like any other.

I used to live next door to a pastor that did the same sort of thing.

The people that would attend would park their cars on our front lawn.

His group would spill over into our backyard.

The next day I would be out in my yard picking up pape rplates and plastic cups.

I didn't call the police - but I didn't care for it either.

I thought that it was a very bad witness for his church.

But none of that was happening here. Also this means you could not have family over for things like Christmas or Thanksgiving if there is more then a total number of 8 people. Again you seem to stand againt our freedoms and support communism and Marxism, why is that?.

 

[targus]

But none of that was happening here. Also this means you could not have family over for things like Chrisman or thanksgiving if there is more then a total number of 8 people. Again you seem to stand againt our freedoms and support communism and Marxism, why is that?.

Did you read the little burb or watch the video?

No one said that he could not have family over.

He can not operate a church at his house with more than 12 people attending at one time.

Why should he be exempt from zoning laws?

Are zoning laws communism or Marxism to you?

BTW - I would have thought that you would calling for him to get a good caning. :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

Did you read the little burb or watch the video?

No one said that he could not have family over.

He can not operate a church at his house with more than 12 people attending at one time.

Why should he be exempt from zoning laws?

Are zoning laws communism or Marxism to you?

BTW - I would have thought that you would calling for him to get a good caning. :laugh:

Why should he be forbidden from teaching the Bible when the same number can attend a dinner? You again seem to support communism and Marxism and stand against freedom of religion as under our constitution our government is not allowed to make laws restricting freedom of religion. It is none of their business what they are doing as long as there activity is not illegal. If more then 12 people can come and drink beer and watch football then there should be no restriction on how many can come and have a bible study, watch the video. Why are to so against our freedom of religion and Christianity?

 

[targus]

Why should he be forbidden from teaching the bible when the same number can attend a dinner? You again seem to support communism and Marxism and stand against freedom of religion as under our constitution our government is not allowed to make laws restricting freedom of religion. It is none of their business what they are doing as long as there activity is not illegal. If more then 12 people can come and drink beer and watch football then there should be no restriction on how many can come and have a bible study, watch the video. Why are to so against our freedom of religion and Christianity?

How often do people have 12 people come for dinner.

How often was he having his Bible study?

Should there or should there not be zoning and business licensing laws?

A simple yes or no will do - without out all or your silly communism/Marxism accusations. :laugh:

BTW - still wondering why you pick some law breakers out for caning and give a complete pass to others. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Scarlett O.]

He has a point FAL - why are you giving this law-breaker a pass on the caning? He is defying the scriptures that tell us to obey our civil authorities.

Now from I understand at this site ..... http://www.christianpost.com/news/a...er-building-private-church-in-backyard-76946/

....the man was hosting this "bible study" on a regular basis with up to 50 people in a building on his property that he had listed as a "game room". There was a pulpit and rows of chairs.

I can see how the city would have construed this as a church. Good gravy!! Even I perceive it as a church. In fact, I'll have to go back and look, but I think the guy calls himself an ordained pastor OF the "church".

What's wrong with just following the law and getting a permit to house a church??

Maybe the city would have denied his request based on whatever - (a) building not up to fire marshall code or (b) denying him to persecute him.

OK, so he could have dealt with that later. But what was wrong with applying for a permit?

 

[LadyEagle]

Agreed, Scarlett. Your post is excellent! :thumbs:

BTW, I am against Marxism, Socialism, and Caning!

I would add that when you live in a suburban community you do have more restrictions than if you live in a rural setting. There are local zoning laws and covenants that you must follow if you choose to live there. Just as in condominium communities, there are HO associations. An occasional family gathering is not the same as regular meetings.

 

[HankD]

Did you read the little burb or watch the video?

No one said that he could not have family over.

He can not operate a church at his house with more than 12 people attending at one time.

Why should he be exempt from zoning laws?

Are zoning laws communism or Marxism to you?

BTW - I would have thought that you would calling for him to get a good caning. :laugh:

I read the blurb, watched the video and did more research.

The City Council has the right to make and enforce zoning laws but in this singular case it seems they went by the letter of the law while overlooking the violations of others for similar infractions.

Not only that it seems that when Salman tried to comply the council changed the rules midstream to accomodate the complaints of one citizen.

If Salman can prove these two things I am wondering (I'm not a lawyer) if he has cause for a civil suit against the city.

Especially if he does time. Then it's a BIG time offense against Salman's rights, possibly even a criminal offense for the councilmen who passed the injunction.

On the other hand if the injunction is held up by the higher courts Salman will face even greater consequence if he continues to defy the council.

Here's another question: what if it was a Moslem pray meeting with 13 participants, would the city council be so quick to put the imam in jail?

This has caught my interest FAL, thanks, I'm going to keep an eye on this at least for curiosity's sake.


HankD

 

[targus]

I read the blurb, watched the video and did more research.

The City Council has the right to make and enforce zoning laws but in this singular case it seems they went by the letter of the law while overlooking the violations of others for similar infractions.

Not only that it seems that when Salman tried to comply the council changed the rules midstream to accomodate the complaints of one citizen.

If Salman can prove these two things I am wondering (I'm not a lawyer) if he has cause for a civil suit against the city.

Especially if he does time. Then it's a BIG time offense against Salman's rights, possibly even a criminal offense for the councilmen who passed the injunction.

On the other hand if the injunction is held up by the higher courts Salman will face even greater consequence if he continues to defy the council.

Here's another question: what if it was a Moslem pray meeting with 13 participants, would the city council be so quick to put the imam in jail?

This has caught my interest FAL, thanks, I'm going to keep an eye on this at least for curiosity's sake.


HankD

But he doesn't have just 12 or 13 participants - more like 50 people.

He wants to build a 4.000 square foot building to hold the bible studies.

This pastor thinks that he is not beholden to any law - and has filed paperwork with the courts to argue just that. Zoning laws, traffic laws... you name it - he thinks that he is exempt on religious grounds.

And it has been going on for several years now. He wasn't jailed because he broke the zoning law once or twice - he has been doing so for years even though he has been told to stop more than once.

 

[targus]

And there is more to it...

"The gazebo-like building in the yard doesn't have fire sprinklers, exit signs, exit doors, proper electrical wiring, and other mandatory items for a commercial building. Salman maintains it's not a commercial building."

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/04/pastor_michael_salman_sues_ove.php

 

[HankD]

And there is more to it...

"The gazebo-like building in the yard doesn't have fire sprinklers, exit signs, exit doors, proper electrical wiring, and other mandatory items for a commercial building. Salman maintains it's not a commercial building."

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/04/pastor_michael_salman_sues_ove.php

OK, but I'm still going to watch it develop. He needs to prove his allegation that he was singled out when others were not.

RE:50 attendees. Twelve is the allowed number so it doesn't matter, 13, 50 or thirteen hundred violates the reguation.

HankD

 

[freeatlast]

How often do people have 12 people come for dinner.

How often was he having his bible study?

Should there or should there not be zoning and business licensing laws?

A simple yes or no will do - without out all or your silly communism/Marxism accusations. :laugh:

BTW - still wondering why you pick some law breakers out for caning and give a complete pass to others. :smilewinkgrin:

How often makes no difference. It is against bible studies not the number of people. To support this you have to stand against the Lord and bible studies. That is a antichrist and communism mind set.

 

[freeatlast]

I read the blurb, watched the video and did more research.

The City Council has the right to make and enforce zoning laws but in this singular case it seems they went by the letter of the law while overlooking the violations of others for similar infractions.

Not only that it seems that when Salman tried to comply the council changed the rules midstream to accomodate the complaints of one citizen.

If Salman can prove these two things I am wondering (I'm not a lawyer) if he has cause for a civil suit against the city.

Especially if he does time. Then it's a BIG time offense against Salman's rights, possibly even a criminal offense for the councilmen who passed the injunction.

On the other hand if the injunction is held up by the higher courts Salman will face even greater consequence if he continues to defy the council.

Here's another question: what if it was a Moslem pray meeting with 13 participants, would the city council be so quick to put the imam in jail?

This has caught my interest FAL, thanks, I'm going to keep an eye on this at least for curiosity's sake.


HankD

Your welcome. I am glad to see that you are not siding with the antichrists and those who support communism.

 

[targus]

How often makes no difference. It is against bible studies not the number of people. To support this you have to stand against the Lord and bible studies. That is a antichrist and communism mind set.

Uhhh... No it is about zoning law, building codes and business licensing.

Your insults not withstanding. :smilewinkgrin:

Be careful or I will ask the moderator to give you a good canning. :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

Uhhh... No it is about zoning law, building codes and business licensing.

Your insults not withstanding. :smilewinkgrin:

Be careful or I will ask the moderator to give you a good canning. :laugh:

[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The mods know their spirit as do many others. So after listening to the video you do not think that those people who had this man arrested are against the bible teaching when they made it personal? You do not believe that they do not have the mind and heart of antichrist and have the mind of a communist? You think this was a decision based on righteousness not to mention the constitution when it says no lows will be made in respect of religion?
[/SIZE]

 

[targus]

The mods know their spirit as do many others. So after listening to the video you do not think that those people who had this man arrested are against the bible teaching when they made it personal? You do not believe that they do not have the mind and heart of antichrist and have the mind of a communist?

I see...

You want laws to be enforced or not based on the hearts of the people who are complaining about the lawbreakers rather than whether or not laws are being broken.

You think this was a decision based on righteousness not to mention the constitution when it says no lows will be made in respect of religion?]

No. It is based on zoning laws, building codes and business licensing laws.

Why are you so against this pastor setting up his church on property that is zoned for churches rather than his back yard?

Why are you so against this pastor taking out building permits and building the structure that he wants to use for his bible class in compliance with fire and safety regulations.

No doubt if some terrible accident happened and people were hurt using his non-compliant stucture you would be calling for him to be canned and the building inspector to be fired, fined and put in jail. :laugh:

 

[HankD]

I am against this injunction because there seems to be real evidence of an ulterior motive, selective prosecution and prejudice on the part of the City Council.

It should be heard at a higher court.

I believe Salman is doing the right thing by pushing back.

However he must also realize there is a consequence even perhaps if he is in the right as we all must if and when it becomes our turn under the microscope.

Having said that personally (judging by the number of participants in the "church" - about 50) I would have complied with the injuction and sought a parcel of land with the proper zoning and built a "legal" church building.

IMO - Soon enough they will be coming after us even in the "legal" places of Christian worship. Subtle at first - later preachers and deacons who teach that certain crimes against nature are sinful will be arrested after the "hate crime" legislation is passed.

So in this I agree with FAL, Antichrist is becoming more aggressive and bolder and is pushing envelopes everywhere he can legally and otherwise:

Legalized murder of the helpless: babies (abortion) and the elderly (death with dignity).

The institutions of marriage and family being eroded.

"porneia" available in the homes (internet) with no protection of the eyes of children.

Etc, etc...

HankD

 

[targus]

I am against this injunction because there seems to be real evidence of an ulterior motive, selective prosecution and prejudice on the part of the City Council.

Can you provide me with your source?

Are there others running a business from home, without licensing and from buildings built non-compliant with the building codes against which neighbors have complained that are not being cited or ticketed?

 

[Don]

Actually, Targus, while I agree with you most of the time -- I might be tempted to say, "we must obey God rather than men."

But on that same note, Salman should be praying for a Gamaliel to stand up; and then Salman should be prepared to "take a beating" (in this day and age, do his time).

BUT BY ALL MEANS, he should be respecting his neighbors, and *requiring* his congregation to clean up after themselves, and make of themselves a good witness to the neighbors who are complaining about people parking in their yards and having to clean up after these folks.