Sixty Days of Jail Time for Backyard Bible Study

[freeatlast]

I see...

You want laws to be enforced or not based on the hearts of the people who are complaining about the lawbreakers rather than whether or not laws are being broken.



No. It is based on zoning laws, building codes and business licensing laws.

Why are you so against this pastor setting up his church on property that is zoned for churches rather than his back yard?

Why are you so against this pastor taking out building permits and building the structure that he wants to use for his bible class in compliance with fire and safety regulations.

No doubt if some terrible accident happened and people were hurt using his non-compliant stucture you would be calling for him to be canned and the building inspector to be fired, fined and put in jail. :laugh:

This was a direct attack on their faith.

 

[freeatlast]

Actually, Targus, while I agree with you most of the time -- I might be tempted to say, "we must obey God rather than men."

But on that same note, Salman should be praying for a Gamaliel to stand up; and then Salman should be prepared to "take a beating" (in this day and age, do his time).

BUT BY ALL MEANS, he should be respecting his neighbors, and *requiring* his congregation to clean up after themselves, and make of themselves a good witness to the neighbors who are complaining about people parking in their yards and having to clean up after these folks.

Where did it say that they were parking in the neighbors yard and making a mess? The video clearly said that they were parking in his yard not the neighbors. Was there some other article about this?

 

[preacher4truth]

It looks like the early church worshipped and praised Jesus from house to house in Acts, breaking bread, fellowshipping, worshipping while knowing the impending threat for preaching and following Jesus.

It also looks like todays believers would have a problem with this kind of thing going on, disrespect for neighbors aside. Sounds fitting according to todays 'Christianity'.

 

[HankD]

Can you provide me with your source?

Are there others running a business from home, without licensing and from buildings built non-compliant with the building codes against which neighbors have complained that are not being cited or ticketed?

There are many sources but nothing definitive that is why I have used the words "seems" and "appears" and expressed my opinion that it should be heard in a higher court (heretofore disallowed) so that documents can be brought forward and a decision can be made as to who is being the most trustworthy.

I typed "Michael Salman Phoenix" in a google and came up with 4 million pages, I randomly checked through about 20 pages.

Here are a 4 you can wade through (one with links to other blurbs).

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/06/pastor_michael_salman_reports.php

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/related/to/Michael+Salman/

http://www.hcfaz.blogspot.com/

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2012/06/_in_2011_the_ci.html


HankD

 

[Magnetic Poles]

You ask..

What is your thoughts, is the city correct? I suggest that you watch the video.

Then when someone expresses their view that is contrary to yours, you resort to calling them a Communist.

You again seem to support communism and Marxism...

Be honest...you were not seeking opinions, you were either seeking confirming opinions only, or trolling for a nonsensical attack opportunity.

 

[freeatlast]

You ask..


Then when someone expresses their view that is contrary to yours, you resort to calling them a Communist.



Be honest...you were not seeking opinions, you were either seeking confirming opinions only, or trolling for a nonsensical attack opportunity.

I assume that is what you are doing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In 2008, neighbors complained that Michael Salman was hosting bible studies in his backyard. He was cited by the city of Phoenix....
http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2012/20120625002-michael-salman.html

What is your thoughts, is the city correct? I suggest that you watch the video.

LOL, Yeah I thought you were gonna say that you got arrested for being a nut and you were doing a bible study ina state pen for 60 days:smilewinkgrin:

 

[HankD]

I assume that is what you are doing.

FAL, you would get a little further if you toned it down.

I agree with you often but sometimes I just avoid the debate because you lack tact.

Look, I can empathize with Salman.

I've had weekly Bible studies in my home with 20-30 people attending but then again my neighbor(s) didn't complain.
I'm not really sure of that city's ordinances when I taught the studies.

Personally I am of the opinion (underline opinion) that the one person (allegedly) complaining about Salman is an atheist or has some other axe to grind and not really concerned about the zoning violation.

We all inadvertantly side with the antichrist on occassion especially when we turn on the TV (after all satan is prince of the power of the air) and linger on a channel wherein he is honored by the unrestrained breaking of the commandments.

But to brand your brother (directly or obliquely) with communism because his opinion sides with the city council of Pheonix to enforce the zoning ordinance is going too far (IMO).

Yes it's all leading up to the end of this age when there will be a falling away and lawlessness will abound when the "man of sin" will be revealed.

2 Timothy 2:24-26

HankD

 

[Crabtownboy]

Fifty people for Thanksgiving is one thing. Fifth people meeting weekly is quite a different thing.

A few questions:

1. What kind of congestion is that many cars going to make on the street?

2. Fifty people each week, would you like that next door to you with the accomping noise before and after the Bible study?

3. Was amplified music being played? I don't know.

Zoning is there for a purpose. If it is the law then he should abide by it until he gets it changed through legal channels. He refused and when you refuse to abide by the law you pay a price.

I wonder how many on the BB showing outrage claim to be law and order people? Seems to me they are showing a decided liberal bent on this issue.

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, you would get a little further if you toned it down.

I agree with you often but sometimes I just avoid the debate because you lack tact.

Look, I can empathize with Salman.

I've had weekly Bible studies in my home with 20-30 people attending but then again my neighbor(s) didn't complain.
I'm not really sure of that city's ordinances when I taught the studies.

Personally I am of the opinion (underline opinion) that the one person (allegedly) complaining about Salman is an atheist or has some other axe to grind and not really concerned about the zoning violation.

We all inadvertantly side with the antichrist on occassion especially when we turn on the TV (after all satan is prince of the power of the air) and linger on a channel wherein he is honored by the unrestrained breaking of the commandments.

But to brand your brother (directly or obliquely) with communism because his opinion sides with the city council of Pheonix to enforce the zoning ordinance is going too far (IMO).

Yes it's all leading up to the end of this age when there will be a falling away and lawlessness will abound when the "man of sin" will be revealed.

2 Timothy 2:24-26

HankD

Thank you for the reminder. I accept the correction.

 

[freeatlast]

Fifty people for Thanksgiving is one thing. Fifth people meeting weekly is quite a different thing.

A few questions:

1. What kind of congestion is that many cars going to make on the street?

2. Fifty people each week, would you like that next door to you with the accomping noise before and after the Bible study?

3. Was amplified music being played? I don't know.

Zoning is there for a purpose. If it is the law then he should abide by it until he gets it changed through legal channels. He refused and when you refuse to abide by the law you pay a price.

I wonder how many on the BB showing outrage claim to be law and order people? Seems to me they are showing a decided liberal bent on this issue.

You need to read the article and listen to the video. There was no cars on the steet and nothing could be seen or heard of what was going on during the times of teachings.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You need to read the article and listen to the video. There was no cars on the steet and nothing could be seen or heard of what was going on during the times of teachings.

That might be. I was thinking of what my street would be like if that many people showed up at one time. Actually I read several articles and did not see anything about cars or noise. If you have a link stating there were no cars on the street and that nothing could be seen or heard I would appreciate having the links so I can read the articles.

What about the fact that it was a zoning violation. Aren't you a law and order person. Why not have the zoning changed via legal means? The building he says is not a church sounds like a church:

The issue with Salman’s case was a building in his backyard, which the City said he constructed without abiding by legal codes and safety standards. The building, reportedly used for weekly gatherings of about 30 to 40 people, has a pulpit and chairs. The building, located on his 1.5-acre property, is about 2,000 square feet and was previously labeled a “game room” by Salman but organized on the inside for worship services.

http://www.martytalk.com/ariz-preacher-sentenced-to-jail-after-building-private-church-in-backyard/

Notice it says he did not abide by the legal codes and safety standards when he built or had the structure built.

Would you feel the same if it were 50 Moslems meeting weekly? Buddhists? Hindus?

 

[Robert Snow]

How often makes no difference. It is against bible studies not the number of people. To support this you have to stand against the Lord and bible studies. That is a antichrist and communism mind set.

It seems that to you, when someone disagree with anything you say scripturally, they are disagreeing with God. I suggest that your understanding of this situation is severely flawed.

If this pastor wants to pastor a church, he needs to obey the ordinances in his community. If not, move to a community that doesn't have such high standards.

 

[Robert Snow]

This was a direct attack on their faith.

Their faith demanded they disobey the civil law and become a bad testimony to the community they are supposedly serving?

 

[freeatlast]

That might be. I was thinking of what my street would be like if that many people showed up at one time. Actually I read several articles and did not see anything about cars or noise. If you have a link stating there were no cars on the street and that nothing could be seen or heard I would appreciate having the links so I can read the articles.

What about the fact that it was a zoning violation. Aren't you a law and order person. Why not have the zoning changed via legal means? The building he says is not a church sounds like a church:



Notice it says he did not abide by the legal codes and safety standards when he built or had the structure built.

Would you feel the same if it were 50 Moslems meeting weekly? Buddhists? Hindus?

Click on the original link in the OP and then watch the video.

 

[freeatlast]

Their faith demanded they disobey the civil law and become a bad testimony to the community they are supposedly serving?

They were obeying. Watch the video.

 

[Crabtownboy]

They were obeying. Watch the video.

At the moment I cannot watch any video. I am on a network that will not allow videos. What were they obeying? Not the legal code of the city.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Click on the original link in the OP and then watch the video.

You failed to answer my question ...
What if it were Moslems?
Hindus?
Buddhists?

Would you defend their right to violate zoning laws?

Are Christians exempt from zoning laws?

And, doesn't the description of the building describe a church ... a pulpit, etc.? I have never been in or heard of a weekly Bible study where a pulpit was required.

 

[freeatlast]

You failed to answer my question ...
What if it were Moslems?
Hindus?
Buddhists?

Would you defend their right to violate zoning laws?

Are Christians exempt from zoning laws?

And, doesn't the description of the building describe a church ... a pulpit, etc.? I have never been in or heard of a weekly Bible study where a pulpit was required.

Here is the thing. Based on the information he was being targeted for his faith and was not in violation. They kept changing the law every time he obeyed what they called for. So yes anytime any part of the government violates the rights of our constitution it makes no different to me what their religious practices are. I would stand up for them. I stand for the constitution as given as for all.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Here is the thing. Based on the information he was being targeted for his faith and was not in violation. They kept changing the law every time he obeyed what they called for. So yes anytime any part of the government violates the rights of our constitution it makes no different to me what their religious practices are. I would stand up for them. I stand for the constitution as given as for all.

Show me links to this information.


Thanks.