Sketchy Doctrine

[Winman]

You keep trying to connect spiritual death to knowing the Law. Cain didn't have the Law, so how could he die spiritually?

Now if Paul was spiritually alive then died, did he lose his salvation? What does being spiritually alive mean to you?

Amy, I clearly answered this just a few posts back. Paul taught that those who sin without the law shall perish without the law. Why? Because they have the law written on their hearts and conscience.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

I sure hope you are not getting like Yeshua1 who keeps asking the same questions over and over and over again. This does not reflect well on you Calvinists. :laugh:

All you have to do is read the OT from Adam to Moses and you will see that men knew what sin was. Pharaoh knew it was wrong to have Abraham's wife, Joseph's brothers knew they had sinned against him and God.

You do not have to have a written law to understand much sin. If you were walking down the street and saw three teenage boys beat an elderly man and steal his wallet, do you need a written law to understand this is wrong?

You can go in the deepest jungles where men have never heard the word of God, and yet these men will have rules of conduct. They know to steal, or kill, or commit adultery is sin.

And this is why men from Adam to Moses who did not sin after the similitude of Adam (this was impossible, God barred men from the tree of knowledge of good and evil) died, because they committed sin that offended their own innate sense of right and wrong written on their hearts and conscience.

Now, I hope you read this and it sinks in, and you will not have to ask again and again like Yeshua1 does.

 

[HankD]

That's the thing that really kills me about you Calvinists, you believe that God is unable to properly express himself. God says "all men" when he really means "the elect only", Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says he was "alive once" when he really meant to say he was "dead all the time".

Good thing you Calvinists have come along and helped God explain what he really meant to say.

I am not a calvinist.

And he was dead in trespasses and sins all along his life of law-keeping until he met Christ then the law killed him.

He didn't make a mistake, he was explaining his misunderstanding of the purpose of the law.

Is it your view that when Paul says he was "alive once" he meant he was regenerate at that time (keeping the law) and then he died and lost his regeneration when "sin revived"?

Just curious but please explain.

Thanks
HankD

 

[Van]

Look at the duplication

Baloney. I will quote T. W. Brents on Psa 51:5

The view presented is fiction. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, etc. We are not to suppose that David here reflects upon his parents as the medium of transmitting to him the elements of moral evil; and that by the introduction of the doctrine of original sin he intended to extenuate the enormity of his own crimes. On the contrary, we are to regard him as afflicting himself by the humbling consideration that his very nature was fallen." In other words commentary after commentary agrees with my presentation (presented again in the next post.)

And again, you pull one single verse of poetry (not doctrinal scripture) out of context that is not speaking of all men, but only of David's mother, and completely ignore much other scripture recorded by David himself that God was his God from his mother's belly, that God possessed his reins and covered him in his mother's womb, and that he was fearfully and wonderfully made.

The verses you cited were non-germane. This issue is David was fallen, just as John the Baptist was fallen, and Paul was fallen, all were chosen for God's purpose before they were born. Showing a person is chosen for a purpose, either good or bad, i.e. Esau, before birth is non-germane to the issue. So yet another prove "A" and claim "B" has been proven. Nope.

So, I guess you believe David was teaching that God made him a sinner?

No, David was teaching he was conceived in sin, brought forth in iniquity. Separated from God, because God is holy, and if a person is in iniquity and sin, they must be separated from God. David is also teaching that he understands he needs purification from the inside out, that he is fallen and corrupt.

Finally note the effort to nullify scripture, this verse cannot be used for doctrine because it is from Psalms. But Jesus quoted Psalms to teach doctrine. (Matt 22:41–46; Mark 12:35–37; Luke 20:40– 44) Or how about Psalm 22 and what Christ declared from the cross. Anyone who tries to nullify scripture, to slice and dice it to make it conform to their man-made doctrine is not a well to drink from.

Besides being plain stupid, that is horrendous.

Scripture says all men, which includes David, were condemned. To deny this obvious truth is not brilliant nor helpful.

 

[Van]

Winman continues to make absurd arguments. Yes Psalm 51:5 tells us David was conceived in iniquity. So we either accept this condition is shared by all men, or some men or no one else other than David. David is not blaming his mother. This argument is absurd and made by those that deny that we were made sinners, conceived in iniquity, and were by nature children of wrath.

What David is actually saying is for God to purify him, because

(1) David was brought forth in iniquity
(2) David was conceived in sin.
(3) God desires truth in the innermost being
(4) David desires God's wisdom in his hidden part, i.e. his heart.

The meaning and implication of this passage is not difficult.

Next, in an effort to change the subject from Romans 5:12-19 we get three more verses that are non-germane. Quoted and then claimed to indicate what they do not indicate. We are made in God's image, wonderfully made, but we were condemned, made sinners, and are by nature children of wrath.

Is the argument that we were made sinners based on one verse, Romans 5:19. Yes. Which verse says we were not made sinners? None. So it is one against zero. What verse says were are by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3. So one verse, but they now total two. How many say we are not by nature children of wrath? None. So two verses to zero. What verse say we were conceived in sin, brought forth in iniquity? Psalm 51:5, unless one assumes this only applies to one person, David, or only a few. But since scripture, Romans 5:18 says Adam's sin resulted in condemnation to all men, the prevailing view is that we are all brought forth in iniquity as a result of the condemnation of all men. Now the total for being condemned, corrupted, separated from God verse total is 4, while the number of verses that actually contradict the view is zero. So I am repeatedly charged with shoddy bible study. LOL

 

[Winman]

I am not a calvinist.

And he was dead in trespasses and sins all along his life of law-keeping until he met Christ then the law killed him.

He didn't make a mistake, he was explaining his misunderstanding of the purpose of the law.

Is it your view that when Paul says he was "alive once" he meant he was regenerate at that time (keeping the law) and then he died and lost his regeneration when "sin revived"?

Just curious but please explain.

Thanks
HankD

No, that is not my view whatsoever.

First, the word "regenerated" properly defined means to be made ALIVE AGAIN.

If we are born dead in sin, then we are "generated" not "REgenerated". Words have meaning.

To be made alive AGAIN necessitates that you must have been alive ONCE, exactly as Paul says in Romans 7:9.

So, I do not believe Paul was REgenerated, I believe he was spiritually alive. I believe he was born upright as scripture plainly says in Ecc 7:29. Then when a man is convicted as a sinner he spiritually dies. When he repents and comes to Christ, then he is REgenerated or made alive AGAIN.

This is exactly what Jesus says of the prodigal son in Luke 15.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Now THIS is REgeneration, to be made alive AGAIN. Exactly what Jesus says twice in Luke 15. But to be alive AGAIN, you must be alive ONCE as Paul clearly says in Romans 7:9.

I guess Jesus was confused like Paul huh? Jesus mistakenly believed the prodigal son was alive AGAIN.

Good thing you Calvinists are around to explain Paul and Jesus's mistakes. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I clearly answered this just a few posts back. Paul taught that those who sin without the law shall perish without the law. Why? Because they have the law written on their hearts and conscience.

Yes I know that. But you have been saying that Paul "died" when he learned the Law. So my question was what does it mean to be spiritually alive? You did not answer this. Hank has asked you as well. And yes I will keep asking (because I'm just annoying like that).
If Paul was spiritually alive until he learned the Law, then what does it mean that he died?

What does being "spiritually alive" mean to you?

 

[Winman]

Yes I know that. But you have been saying that Paul "died" when he learned the Law. So my question was what does it mean to be spiritually alive? You did not answer this. Hank has asked you as well. And yes I will keep asking (because I'm just annoying like that).
If Paul was spiritually alive until he learned the Law, then what does it mean that he died?

What does being "spiritually alive" mean to you?

It means a person is not condemned.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law. If God had not provided his word, then we would have no sin.

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

This is WHY Adam and Eve died. When you have knowledge between good and evil, that makes you responsible. This is why little babies and very small children cannot be sinners, because they are not able to understand right from wrong.

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

A baby, or a severely mentally impaired person cannot understand sin, therefore they have no sin. This is shown over and over in scriptures.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

I am not saying babies cannot do wrong, they surely can. But they are not held accountable until they understand good from evil, right from wrong. I cannot say what age that is, but God knows when a child understands and is accountable.

The Jews generally consider age 13 for boys and age 12 for girls to be the age of accountability. This is probably about right. This is probably when Paul learned the law, as Jewish boys and girls do today.

There are many more scriptures besides these.

 

[Amy.G]

It means a person is not condemned.

So what does it mean to you when you say Paul was spiritually alive, then died? You previously said that Paul died when he learned the Law as a young man. I assume up until that point you believe he wasn't condemned? Does "not condemned" mean he was saved?

 

[Winman]

So what does it mean to you when you say Paul was spiritually alive, then died? You previously said that Paul died when he learned the Law as a young man. I assume up until that point you believe he wasn't condemned? Does "not condemned" mean he was saved?

No, if you are not condemned, then you have no need to be "saved". You have no need to repent. Only LOST persons need to be SAVED.

This is what Jesus says of little children in Matthew 18;

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

In Matthew 18, Jesus sets a little child in the midst of his disciples and tells them unless they be converted and become as little children, they shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

We know that no unclean thing will ever enter heaven;

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So, obviously little children are not sinners. In Mat 18:13 Jesus speaks of 99 persons "which went not astray".

Who can say they have never gone astray? The only reasonable answer is unborn babies or little children who die before they ever sin. There have been many MILLIONS of children that have died like this, this would account for the 99 to 1 ratio Jesus showed.

Jesus also spoke of these persons in Luke 15;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.


Here Jesus spoke of 99 just persons "which need no repentance". Again, who could ever say this? The only reasonable answer is unborn babies or little children who died before they ever knew right from wrong and are not accountable. They were NEVER LOST.

Folks can't handle this because we have been taught that everyone is born a sinner dead in sin, but that is not what the scriptures really show.

Jesus also spoke of the elder son who NEVER SINNED.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

In the parable of the prodigal son, Jesus spoke of the elder brother who claimed to have NEVER sinned against his father.

Did the father correct the elder son or call him a hypocrite? NO, the father confirmed what the elder son said to be true. He called him SON, he said the elder boy was EVER with him (no separation from the father ever), and that ALL that he had was his.

He also did not say the elder son was DEAD or LOST like his younger brother.

Now, there you have it, Jesus himself repeatedly speaks of persons who did not go astray and need no repentance. He speaks of an elder son who never sinned at any time.

You would have to believe that Jesus was speaking of IMAGINARY people that could not possibly exist if Original Sin is true. I refuse to believe that, Jesus did not speak NONSENSE ever!

But notice, there was no celebration for these persons that were never lost, the celebration was only for those sinners who repented and were saved by Jesus.

 

[HankD]

No, that is not my view whatsoever.

First, the word "regenerated" properly defined means to be made ALIVE AGAIN.

If we are born dead in sin, then we are "generated" not "REgenerated". Words have meaning.

To be made alive AGAIN necessitates that you must have been alive ONCE, exactly as Paul says in Romans 7:9.

So, I do not believe Paul was REgenerated, I believe he was spiritually alive. I believe he was born upright as scripture plainly says in Ecc 7:29. Then when a man is convicted as a sinner he spiritually dies. When he repents and comes to Christ, then he is REgenerated or made alive AGAIN.

This is exactly what Jesus says of the prodigal son in Luke 15.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Now THIS is REgeneration, to be made alive AGAIN. Exactly what Jesus says twice in Luke 15. But to be alive AGAIN, you must be alive ONCE as Paul clearly says in Romans 7:9.

I guess Jesus was confused like Paul huh? Jesus mistakenly believed the prodigal son was alive AGAIN.

Good thing you Calvinists are around to explain Paul and Jesus's mistakes. :laugh:

Regeneration is dealt with in John 3.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

We all have had a flesh birth, but to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must have a rebirth of the Spirit.​

So, it is not just a REbirth but a rebirth of another kind.

This is the definition of regeneration as I have used it in our discussion.​

Paul had the confidence in his flesh that while he was going about keeping the law and thereby establishing his own righteousness (or so he and all law-keepers assume), that he was alive unto God and pleasing to God only to fall under conviction that in actuality he was dead in trespasses and sins when the Spirit of truth reproved him as a sinner.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

Regeneration is dealt with in John 3.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

We all have had a flesh birth, but to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must have a rebirth of the Spirit.​

So, it is not just a REbirth but a rebirth of another kind.

This is the definition of regeneration as I have used it in our discussion.​

Paul had the confidence in his flesh that while he was going about keeping the law and thereby establishing his own righteousness (or so he and all law-keepers assume), that he was alive unto God and pleasing to God only to fall under conviction that in actuality he was dead in trespasses and sins when the Spirit of truth reproved him as a sinner.​

HankD​

Well, if people can give ANY definition to a word, you can prove anything with the scriptures.

The word regenerate literally means to be made "alive again". Generate means to make alive, and the prefix "re" means to do it again. Now that is the dictionary definition of the word, and the Bible definition too.

So, to be made alive "again", you must have been alive once. Now, this is exactly what Paul said of himself.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Now, we can argue all day that Paul mistakenly believed he was alive once, but that is not what he said. He plainly and simply says he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

Now, if he was already dead as you propose, I hardly see how he could die.

Perhaps he mistakenly believed he died as well??

And I have shown further support for my view from Jesus Christ himself in Luke 15;

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Now if anybody understands doctrine perfectly, it is Jesus. Wouldn't you agree with that? And Jesus said the prodigal was alive AGAIN. In fact, he said it TWICE.

Now, that's enough for me, I take Jesus at his word. I don't care what Augustine, or Calvin, or Luther, or Spurgeon, or any other "theologian" said, Jesus said the prodigal was alive AGAIN. And that is the very definition of the word "regenerated".

Now you are correct, Jesus said unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. I believe Jesus is speaking of adults however, not unborn babies, or little children who died before they knew right from wrong and are imputed sinners. It was Jesus himself who spoke of 99 persons who never went astray, 99 just persons who need no repentance, and the elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time.

I simply do not believe Jesus said nonsensical things. I do not believe Jesus would speak of imaginary persons that could not possibly exist. And the only persons I can think of that have never sinned are babies and little children who died before they could ever sin.

 

[HankD]

I simply do not believe Jesus said nonsensical things. I do not believe Jesus would speak of imaginary persons that could not possibly exist. And the only persons I can think of that have never sinned are babies and little children who died before they could ever sin.

So, they never sinned.

The sappling apple tree is still an apple tree even before it matures and bears fruit.

HankD

 

[Winman]

So, they never sinned.

The sappling apple tree is still an apple tree even before it matures and bears fruit.

HankD

Oh, the ol' corrupt tree analogy? Well, let's see what Jesus REALLY said about trees.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Did Jesus teach that all persons are born a corrupt tree that MUST produce corrupt fruit?

NO. Jesus said to EITHER (showing option) MAKE (showing ability on our part) the tree GOOD (showing we can do good if we choose) OR (again showing option) MAKE (ability again) the tree CORRUPT (corrupt means to go from a good state to bad).

So, Jesus did not teach that you are born a corrupt tree and must produce corrupt fruit, Jesus showed you have the option and ability to be either good or corrupt.

So much for the corrupt tree excuse.

 

[Winman]

So, they never sinned.

The sappling apple tree is still an apple tree even before it matures and bears fruit.

HankD

I did not say little children never sinned, Jesus did.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Read Matthew 18 yourself. The whole context is little children. Jesus had just sat a little child in the midst of the disciples and told them unless they be converted and become as little children they shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become wicked little sinners to enter heaven? Nonsense.

Then Jesus warns against offending or sinning against little children.

And then Jesus says the scripture I showed above, about a shepherd having (they were not lost) one hundred sheep, if one go astray and become lost, does he not search for it until he finds it?

And then Jesus says there is more joy over this one lost sheep that is recovered than the 99 sheep who never went astray. And then Jesus tells us who he is speaking of in the next verse when he says it is not his Father's will that one of "these little ones" should perish. Jesus is STILL speaking of little children here.

In Luke 15:7 he repeats this parable and speaks of 99 just persons who need no repentance.

I am not making this stuff up, look for yourself.

 

[Van]

And the beat goes on, Winman's view has folks who are not condemned through Adam's sin. Romans 5:16, OTOH has the judgment of Adam's sin resulted in Condemnation.

Thus the condemnation resulted in the many (all men except Christ) being made sinners, Romans 5:19. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, Romans 5:18

John 3:18 he who does not believe has been judged already. When we are conceived, do we believe? Nope. So have we been judged already. Yeap. We are by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3.

And note the effort at shuck and jive, the issue is not that babies have chosen to sin, the issue is were they condemned, made sinners, separated from God and corrupted because of God's judgment of Adam's sin.

Winman simply posts copy and paste non-germane verses followed by nonsense. All his passages have been rebutted several times.

Here is the mistaken view of Winman:

1) We are not conceived in iniquity, only David was.

2) Thus, when conceived we were not separated from God, dead in our sinful condition caused by God's judgment of Adam's sin.

3) We were together with God in the garden, we had sneaked back into the garden, around that pesky angel with the sword put at the entrance to keep us out.

4) After returning to the garden, we ate of the tree of life, making ourselves alive, together with God.

5) But we sinned, and God tossed us out of the garden again, and this time we cannot sneak back in, that pesky angel is on to our secret way.

All this can be found in Winman's bible.

 

[HankD]

I did not say little children never sinned, Jesus did.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Read Matthew 18 yourself. The whole context is little children. Jesus had just sat a little child in the midst of the disciples and told them unless they be converted and become as little children they shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become wicked little sinners to enter heaven? Nonsense.

Then Jesus warns against offending or sinning against little children.

And then Jesus says the scripture I showed above, about a shepherd having (they were not lost) one hundred sheep, if one go astray and become lost, does he not search for it until he finds it?

And then Jesus says there is more joy over this one lost sheep that is recovered than the 99 sheep who never went astray. And then Jesus tells us who he is speaking of in the next verse when he says it is not his Father's will that one of "these little ones" should perish. Jesus is STILL speaking of little children here.

In Luke 15:7 he repeats this parable and speaks of 99 just persons who need no repentance.

I am not making this stuff up, look for yourself.

I didn't say they never sinned either.

The SO, was of the kind of "so what that some children die before they actually sin?".

An apple tree is still an apple tree before it bears fruit winman.
Besides how is it that some infants do die before they actually sin?

Since death is the result of sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

I can't definitively prove it from scripture except possibly the one that you gave but I believe God regenerates children who have not the understanding and accountability of what they are which possibly is 6-7 (or more) years old.

HankD

 

[Winman]

I didn't say they never sinned either.

We know from Romans 9:11 that Esau and Jacob had done no evil. If they had died in this state (and millions of children have died in the womb) they would have been no sinners.

The SO, was of the kind of "so what that some children die before they actually sin?".

Well, for one thing, it proves physical death is not a result of sin. If sin causes physical death, then why did God need to bar Adam and Eve from the tree of life, they would have died anyway! Isn't that so?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, it was not Adam and Eve's sin that caused their physical death, but God banning them from the tree of life and chasing them out of the garden.

However, they did die spiritually the very day they sinned, just as God had promised.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

An apple tree is still an apple tree before it bears fruit winman.
Besides how is it that some infants do die before they actually sin?

Then why do saved parents give birth to children who become sinners?

All men die because we have been banned from the tree of life, not because we sinned in Adam.

Since death is the result of sin.

Spiritual death, not physical.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

Yes, and read the following verses, they are not speaking of physical death, but spiritual. They speak of condemnation, judgment, disobedience, etc...

These verses are clearly speaking of spiritual death, not physical.

I can't definitively prove it from scripture except possibly the one that you gave but I believe God regenerates children who have not the understanding and accountability of what they are which possibly is 6-7 (or more) years old.

HankD

Well, here is a HUGE problem for Original Sin. If everyone is born a sinner as you believe, then all children who die before they can understand the gospel and believe on Jesus would go to hell. Sad, but true.

And this is exactly why Augustine and the Catholic Church baptized babies, to wash away this Original Sin.

So, now you have folks being saved by baptism, and not faith in Jesus. Or else folks say God breaks his own rules and gives babies a break and saves them anyway, even though they are filthy sinners just like adults, they just haven't had a chance to grow into big sinners.

So, now you have folks being saved by other than trusting Jesus. Not good.

However, if you understand that babies are not sinners, you realize they are not lost.

Now, we all know scripture like Rom 3:23 that says all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But again, Rom 9:11 shows this is not speaking of unborn babies or very little children. It is speaking of men.

What is important, is there any scripture to support there are some men who have never sinned? I say yes, and I have shown the words of Jesus in Matthew 18 and Luke 15. In fact, it was Jesus himself who told the story of the elder son who never sinned.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Now, it was Jesus himself who tells us of this elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at ANY TIME. I didn't say that, Jesus did.

Did the father correct the boy or call him a hypocrite? NO, the father confirmed what the elder son said was true, he called him SON, he said the boy was EVER with him (no separation by sin EVER), and ALL that he had was his.

The father also clearly contrasts the elder son to his younger brother who was both DEAD and LOST.

So, why in the world would Jesus tell us about some supposedly IMAGINARY person that could not possibly exist if Original Sin is true?

I think the answer is, is that Jesus was not speaking of some imaginary person that could not possibly exist, but speaking of very real persons that truly do exist.

And the only possible persons I can see that would fit this description are babies and very young children who died before they could sin. This matches up perfectly with Matthew 18 I showed before.

So, it is Jesus who speaks of persons who never sinned, what are you going to do with it?

 

[HankD]

We know from Romans 9:11 that Esau and Jacob had done no evil. If they had died in this state (and millions of children have died in the womb) they would have been no sinners.

They would still have the "equipment" to sin which was passed on from Adam.

Well, for one thing, it proves physical death is not a result of sin. If sin causes physical death, then why did God need to bar Adam and Eve from the tree of life, they would have died anyway! Isn't that so?

Perhaps. I don't think it proves it though because Romans 5:12 says that both sin and death was passed through each and every one of us because of "one man" and in the past tense so that it happened to all when Adam sinned

However, they did die spiritually the very day they sinned, just as God had promised.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Literally - "and dying you shall die"

Young's literal Translation

YLT Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'​

Adam was separated from God on that day and he began to die physically on that day.

Then why do saved parents give birth to children who become sinners?

They received it as part of the adamic nature which we retain even after regeneration.

Spiritual death, not physical.

It's all one package.

Well, here is a HUGE problem for Original Sin. If everyone is born a sinner as you believe, then all children who die before they can understand the gospel and believe on Jesus would go to hell.
Sad, but true.

I already gave my answer to this.
Before personal accountability God regenerates them.

And this is exactly why Augustine and the Catholic Church baptized babies, to wash away this Original Sin.

So, now you have folks being saved by baptism, and not faith in Jesus. Or else folks say God breaks his own rules and gives babies a break and saves them anyway, even though they are filthy sinners just like adults, they just haven't had a chance to grow into big sinners.

They are not sinners like adults. They are in the state of innocence, they have a nature to sin but are not accountable having no concept or understanding of sin.

What is important, is there any scripture to support there are some men who have never sinned? I say yes, and I have shown the words of Jesus in Matthew 18 and Luke 15. In fact, it was Jesus himself who told the story of the elder son who never sinned.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Now, it was Jesus himself who tells us of this elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at ANY TIME. I didn't say that, Jesus did.

Did the father correct the boy or call him a hypocrite? NO, the father confirmed what the elder son said was true, he called him SON, he said the boy was EVER with him (no separation by sin EVER), and ALL that he had was his.

The father also clearly contrasts the elder son to his younger brother who was both DEAD and LOST.

So, why in the world would Jesus tell us about some supposedly IMAGINARY person that could not possibly exist if Original Sin is true?

I think the answer is, is that Jesus was not speaking of some imaginary person that could not possibly exist, but speaking of very real persons that truly do exist.

And the only possible persons I can see that would fit this description are babies and very young children who died before they could sin. This matches up perfectly with Matthew 18 I showed before.

So, it is Jesus who speaks of persons who never sinned, what are you going to do with it?

It's a parable winman.

You have made several good points though.


HankD

 

[Van]

Folks, note the continuing effort to prove "A" that little children have done nothing good or bad, and thus claim "B" has been proved, that all mankind was not made sinners (Romans 5:19) that all men are condemned (Romans 5:18) and therefore all mankind at conception were "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3)conceived in sin and brought forth in iniquity (Psalm 51:5).

Just like the scribes who introduced corruptions into the text in the name of being helpful, we have folks corrupting the meaning of the text to help little children. It is never right to do wrong for a right cause. But liberals think two wrongs make a right.

 

[Van]

Arguments against the Biblical support of Original Sin

Lets number them:

1. Adam's sin could not have consequences for mankind because that would violate Eze 18:20. Here God's word teaches the son shall not bear (carry the penalty of sin) of the father. So what this verse teaches is that the son will not be punished for the sins of the father. But sin has consequences for others, and the consequence of the sin of Adam is mankind's separation from God. Note God does "visit" the sin of the father on the generations who hate God, Exodus 20:5.

2. Next it is asserted that through the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners, condemned to a separated state at conception cannot be true because it makes no sense. But it does make sense. Remember how God reduced the size of Gideon's army in order to bring more glory to God? In the same way, when fallen men, separated from God, repent, it brings glory to God. So the fall is consistent with God's purpose of creation.

3. Romans 5:12 is claimed to say "sin entered all men" because "all men sinned" i.e. the reason for sin entering rather than the result is all men sinned. But the idea is actually the opposite, the consequence of anyone’s sin is separation from God, thus the consequence of Adam’s sin, separation from God, was “visited” upon all mankind. Thus “in Adam” “all men sinned.” The key is to see that it is the result or judgment against sin, that is being called sin, therefore all men sinned because the judgment against Adam’s sin, separation and corruption, are applied to all “in Adam.” So at conception all in Adam die, for they are conceived in iniquity, separated from God.

4. Romans 8:20 is said to refer to creation in general, rather than specifically to mankind, but again this simply misreads the passage. However "the creation" is identified as mankind, because all the plants, animals, and earth will be destroyed, so "the creation" refers to mankind, and more specifically to those looking forward to being resurrected in glorified bodies. Only the "new creation" will be brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Therefore this passage again clearly teaches mankind was subjected to futility not because they sinned by choice, but because God visited the consequence of Adam’s sin upon mankind.