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Sketchy Doctrine
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
This thread is blowing my mind. Can I ask a question.
Winman, your shaking a lot of my foundational thinking here so help me out please. Also I have read the whole thread, so if i still do come across ignorant, I apologize.
1) What Im hearing is, Men arent born guilty, but most likely will sin.
1a) Does this mean that a person could stay holy? (my semi-palagian bell is ringing, you quoted the SBC blog so im not saying YOUR a palagian by the way)
2) help me out with this Romans 5:19 business.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
So working backwards:
"so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Ok this part is easy, those who call upon the name of the LORD will be saved.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"
Well.. we read elsewhere that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) So then some how some people didnt sin? but then the Bible is in error. Help me unpack this.
Winman, your shaking a lot of my foundational thinking here so help me out please. Also I have read the whole thread, so if i still do come across ignorant, I apologize.
1) What Im hearing is, Men arent born guilty, but most likely will sin.
1a) Does this mean that a person could stay holy? (my semi-palagian bell is ringing, you quoted the SBC blog so im not saying YOUR a palagian by the way)
2) help me out with this Romans 5:19 business.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
So working backwards:
"so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Ok this part is easy, those who call upon the name of the LORD will be saved.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"
Well.. we read elsewhere that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) So then some how some people didnt sin? but then the Bible is in error. Help me unpack this.
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Yes, I am sure that I have rattled a few cages over the last several years I have posted here.
Correct, men are born upright.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Scripture says God has made man upright. The word "they" is plural and points directly to "man" showing this verse is speaking of ALL men, not just Adam.
There is MUCH other scripture that supports this if one simply reads scripture for what it plainly says.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Paul had just explained that he had not known sin except for the law. Sin is not imputed when there is no law (Rom 5:13). In verse 9 Paul explains that he was spiritually alive, but when he learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died.
If men are born dead in sin as many teach, Paul could NEVER say he was ALIVE. There is more...
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Jesus said when the prodigal son repented, he was ALIVE AGAIN. If we are born dead in sin, then it could never be said we are alive again.
No, the Bible is clear that ALL MEN have sinned. Now, this is not speaking of babies or little children, the scripture is clear that Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb (Rom 9:11). But all men when they mature and come to understand the law will certainly choose to sin knowingly and willingly and spiritually die. The one and only exception was Jesus Christ.
As I explained, if Adam's sin is UNCONDITIONALLY IMPUTED to all men, then righteousness would also be UNCONDITIONALLY IMPUTED to all men. It is the only proper and honest way to interpret this scripture using the form of argument Paul is giving.
However, if condemnation and judgment is CONDITIONALLY imputed when we personally sin, then only MANY sin. Babies who die in the womb like Esau and Jacob have committed no evil.
And of course, only MANY will CONDITIONALLY trust Jesus and be imputed righteous. This is the only proper way to interpret vs. 19. Go back and read the short article I provided, it explains in detail if you read carefully.
Correct, only MANY are made sinners when they conditionally sin as Adam sinned. Babies and very little children are not accountable and sin is not imputed to them. See Deut 1:39 where God allowed children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness to enter the Promised Land, because they did not know between good and evil in that day. This is the age of accountability.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Little babies do not sin.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
This verse alone completely refutes Original Sin, because OS claims that we all sinned "in Adam". Some use the argument of Levi paying tithes to Melchisidec because he was in Abraham's loins (Hebrews 7).
But if this were so, then Paul could not say they had done NO EVIL. So Paul refutes Original Sin in Romans 9:11.
We are not born sinners, but every man when he matures will willingly and knowingly choose to sin. Once you see this, you will see ALL scripture supports this. 1 Peter 2:25 is a perfect example.
1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Peter said we were as sheep going astray. You have to originally be in the flock to go astray. Peter said we are now RETURNED to Jesus. You cannot return someplace you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been to Utah. I can return to California, because I have been there before.
Just read scripture for what it says and it will be obvious to you.
Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Just remember, it was Jesus himself who said the prodigal was alive AGAIN. I will believe Jesus, and not the false teaching of Augustine and Calvin.
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Thank you. You will see for yourself. But be prepared, you will be called a heretic and a Pelagian and every other name they can think of.
It all comes down to this, if we are born with a sin nature that compels us to sin, then sin is not a crime, but a calamity and disease. We would not deserve condemnation, but pity. No one blames a baby addicted to heroin because his mother used heroin when she was pregnant.
Original Sin blames God for sin. It teaches that God cursed Adam so all his offspring would be born with a sin nature that compels men to sin. Why God would desire men to sin baffles me, God plainly says he hates sin and clearly tells men he does not want them to sin. Yet folks teach that God made you a sinner. Now you are not to blame, God is. This is the most evil doctrine that has ever entered the church of God.
But that is not what the scriptures really teach, they teach that man is born upright, and that all men freely and willingly choose to sin of their own free will. We have no excuse, we are absolutely guilty for making our own bad choices.
There is MUCH more scripture I can provide, you will see it in time.
ONLY problem is that it is not according to the Bible!
LOL, I just showed about half a dozen scriptures to support my view, Yeshua1 does not show a single word of scripture to support Original Sin. :laugh:
Interested as to why it would be considered palagian.
Does the Palagian heresy not say that man can be perfect. Where this more says, that we are born with a nature towards Sin due to a cursed earth, and occur our own actual sins towards God. Leaving Children who have had horrors happen to them safe from Hell, and doesn't change that we all need a savior.
am i hitting this right?
Does the Palagian heresy not say that man can be perfect. Where this more says, that we are born with a nature towards Sin due to a cursed earth, and occur our own actual sins towards God. Leaving Children who have had horrors happen to them safe from Hell, and doesn't change that we all need a savior.
am i hitting this right?
I really do not know exactly what Pelagius believed, and I doubt very many do. What little I have read says that Pelagius very basicially believed that what God commands man to do, he is ABLE to do.
I agree with this. I have never been COMPELLED to sin. I have sinned many thousands of times in my life, but honestly I could have always done the right thing. I could give lots of excuses why I did not do the right thing, but that is all they are, excuses. Nobody stuck a gun to my head.
Tell me, has there ever been a time when you were absolutely compelled to sin and could not have possibly done the right thing?
compelled to sin? I don't think its Biblical to say God has ever caused me to sin
But i have a sin nature, im geared towards sin FOR SURE, Sin is my instinctive nature, fooor surre. I do not think it is possible for anyone to ever be sinless, other than Christ Himself. (Ro 6:23)
But i have a sin nature, im geared towards sin FOR SURE, Sin is my instinctive nature, fooor surre. I do not think it is possible for anyone to ever be sinless, other than Christ Himself. (Ro 6:23)
The devil did not cause Adam and Eve to sin, he TEMPTED them. He aroused Eve's natural desires.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Here are the 3 worldly lusts described in 1 John 2:16; First we see the lust of the flesh, the tree looked good for food. Next we see the lust of the eyes, it was pleasant to look upon. Lastly, we see the pride of life, it was desired to make one wise.
Now, did Eve have these thoughts and desires BEFORE she sinned or AFTER?
She had these desires BEFORE she sinned.
What did God call Adam and Eve before they sinned? VERY GOOD (Gen 1:31)
So, being flesh having lust and desires is not evil in itself, it is only evil when we obey those lusts in disobedience to one of God's commandments. If Eve had walked away, she would have been no sinner.
Jesus was also tempted, in fact the scriptures say he was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus felt the tug and pull of fleshly temptation just like you and me, but he never obeyed these desires when they would cause him to sin.
So, temptation is not sin. This is where most folks go wrong. We are flesh, and we are born with fleshly desires just like Eve (and Jesus), but we only become sinners when we knowingly and willingly transgress one of God's laws.
Jesus took on the NATURE of the seed of Abraham, and was made like unto his brethren (the Jews) in ALL THINGS (Heb 2:16-18). So, if we are born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. This is impossible, the scriptures say Jesus was without sin.
Therefore man must also be born without sin, but every man develops a sin nature when he chooses to sin.
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HisWitness
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HisWitness
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that's not what that scripture said you are adding to the scripture.
IN LIKE MANNER through 1 man ALL were made sinners
----------------through 1 man ALL shall be made righteous(future tense statement that will be accomplished)
don't let your false tradition make you reject the 2nd part of this text.
I would quote :
http://sbctoday.com/wp-content/uplo...al-Southern-Baptist-Soteriology-SBC-Today.pdf
Page 3 - Article 2
That would be my position.
Exactly.
I am very much in agreement with these statements, and they quote many of the verses I believe show Original Sin is false doctrine (Eze 18:20 for example).
Note that it says no person is rendered guilty before he has personally sinned. This is a rejection of Original Sin.
I am not sure I agree with the first paragraph completely. I certainly believe we are born into a sinful environment that absolutely tempts us to sin. But I do not believe we are born with a "sin nature". The scriptures say Jesus took on the NATURE of the seed of Abraham, and was made like unto his brethren the Jews in ALL THINGS. So, if we are born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. I reject this.
Nature does not always mean the way you are born in scripture. It also means a developed or learned lifestyle, and I believe this is what scripture shows.
1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
This verse says our vain conversation or lifestyle was received by tradition from our fathers. In other words, "like father, like son". We imitate our parents and all those persons around us. Nobody is born with a cigarette in their mouth, they see other persons smoke and then copy them.
A famous verse that Calvinists often twist to prove Total Inability actually refutes it.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
The Calvinist will quote this scripture and say, See, we are born with a sin nature and MUST sin, we cannot change our skin like the Ethiopian, we cannot change our spots like the leopard.
The problem is, if this is true, then Jeremiah was giving these sinful Jews the PERFECT EXCUSE for sin. They could answer, Well duh Jeremiah! What do you expect? We were born sinners and that's all we can do. Why are you and God angry at us for doing the only possible thing we can do?
And if we are born sinners, then we all have the perfect excuse. So I reject that we are born with a sin nature, I believe it is learned through practice.
So, this explanation is absurd when a person carefully thinks it out. The word "accustomed" means something that is learned. Jeremiah is saying that these persons have practiced sin until it has become their nature, and they have become so sinful, that it would be easier for the Ethiopian to change his skin, or the leopard to change his spots than for them to repent.
I will say this, I know several hundred Baptist pastors signed this showing they agreed, it is good to know that folks are studying the scriptures and coming out of these false teachings of Augustine and Calvin that have plagued the church for 1500 years.
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As explained over and over and over again, the comparison is between Adam, and the many "in Adam" i.e. all mankind except Christ, and between Christ the many "in Christ, i.e. all those spiritually placed in Christ based on God crediting their faith as righteousness. This is not rocket science.
1) Every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin. True
2) Every person, except Christ, who is capable of moral action will sin.
True
3) Every person's sin alone brings wrath of a holy God. False, we by nature (not what we have done) are children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3.
4) Every person's sin alone brings broken fellowship with God. False, God is holy and we are conceived in iniquity, therefore at conception we are separated from God. Psalm 51:5
5) At conception we are condemned already. Romans 5:18
6) We deny that Adam’s sin resulted in the total incapacitation of any person’s will. True, as edited. The myth that the fall caused total spiritual inability of all men at conception is totally false.
a) Matthew 13:1-23 teaches most men, soils 2,3 and 4 have some spiritual ability.
b) Matthew 23:13 teaches men were entering heaven, yet were blocked by false teaching, showing natural but limited spiritual ability, rather than the compulsion of Irresistible Grace.
c) Each and every case in scripture where a person is "hardened" during their lifetime shows the taking away the spiritual ability to seek God and willing strive to follow Him, i.e. Romans 11.
b) Matthew 23:13 teaches men were entering heaven, yet were blocked by false teaching, showing natural but limited spiritual ability, rather than the compulsion of Irresistible Grace.
c) Each and every case in scripture where a person is "hardened" during their lifetime shows the taking away the spiritual ability to seek God and willing strive to follow Him, i.e. Romans 11.
7) We deny Adam's sin rendered a person guilty of any sin. True. But as a consequence of Adam's sin, the many, everyone except Christ, were made sinners. So the consequence of Adam's sin, separation from God and corruption resulted in all men being conceived in iniquity, i.e. separated from God, and corrupted, i.e. #2 above.
8) All who are saved were drawn, but not compelled by God, John 6:44. Also note the part the lost individual plays, verse 45, everyone that hears and "learns" from the Father comes to me. The "learning" shows understanding and acceptance and trust in Christ.
Van said:
All I can say is that several hundred Baptist pastors signed this statement and disagree with you. I as well disagree with you.
Ephesians 2:3 does not say one word about being born a child of wrath.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
This scripture does not say one word about being born a sinner, you are reading that into this scripture. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein in time past we "walked". Newborn babies cannot walk, it takes time before they learn to walk. Likewise, babies observe the world around them and learn to sin. Romans 9:11 shows that Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb, therefore they were not yet guilty of "walking" in trespasses and sins.
1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
Peter said our vain "conversation" or lifestyle was received "by tradition" from our fathers. In other words, sin is learned by imitation. It is actually taught us by our fathers.
Romans 5:18 does not say we are sinners at conception, again you are reading your presupposition into scripture. In fact, it has already been shown that your view would necessarily lead to Universalism. If Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then Jesus's righteousness would also likewise be unconditionally imputed to all men. This is the only possible conclusion if your view is correct, though you seem incapable of understanding your own view.
You cannot impute sin UNCONDITIONALLY to all men in the first half of the verse, and then impute righteousness CONDITIONALLY to only those who believe in the second half of the verse. Paul's form of argument demands that the EXACT SAME CONDITIONS be applied to each half of each verse in this passage.
You often complain that Calvinists are "shoddy" in Bible study, that is exactly what you are guilty of here.
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Why continue to misrepresent my view? Did I say Ephesians 2:3 said we were made sinners? Nope, it says we are by nature children of wrath. Romans 5:18-19 says all men were condemned, made sinners.
1 Peter 1:18 is just another verse you drag into the conversation in a vain effort to muddy the water. The NASB renders the phrase, futile way of life inherited from your forefathers. We have three enemies, Satan, our corrupt flesh, and the world with its futile and ungodly value system. No one is saying we are not tempted and we did not sin knowingly and unknowingly. That is all true, but does not alter the fact we were made sinners, separated from our holy God. Your effort is to prove "A" (we sin during our lifetime) and claim you have proved "b" we were not made sinners, we are not by nature children of wrath, and we were not conceived in iniquity.
Psalm 51:5 says we were conceived in iniquity, not Romans 5:18. Thus a strawman argument to say Romans 5:18 does not say what Psalm 51:5 says. Romans 5:18 says we were condemned through the sin of Adam. And it is utterly false to say my view leads to Universalism. The many in Adam is not the same group at the many in Christ. Two different groups. Here you are simply manufacturing a non-existent problem to disparage my view.
Then you again repeat, that Adam's sin was imputed to the many. And again, I said the consequence of Adam's sin resulted in the many being conceived in iniquity, being by nature children of wrath, and being made sinners, therefore being separated from God.
As I have said many times, mistaken views are based on (1) speculation rather than a minimalist approach to stick with what is actually said, and (2) shoddy bible study using liberal, i.e. loose and approximate, understandings of scripture.
1 Peter 1:18 is just another verse you drag into the conversation in a vain effort to muddy the water. The NASB renders the phrase, futile way of life inherited from your forefathers. We have three enemies, Satan, our corrupt flesh, and the world with its futile and ungodly value system. No one is saying we are not tempted and we did not sin knowingly and unknowingly. That is all true, but does not alter the fact we were made sinners, separated from our holy God. Your effort is to prove "A" (we sin during our lifetime) and claim you have proved "b" we were not made sinners, we are not by nature children of wrath, and we were not conceived in iniquity.
Psalm 51:5 says we were conceived in iniquity, not Romans 5:18. Thus a strawman argument to say Romans 5:18 does not say what Psalm 51:5 says. Romans 5:18 says we were condemned through the sin of Adam. And it is utterly false to say my view leads to Universalism. The many in Adam is not the same group at the many in Christ. Two different groups. Here you are simply manufacturing a non-existent problem to disparage my view.
Then you again repeat, that Adam's sin was imputed to the many. And again, I said the consequence of Adam's sin resulted in the many being conceived in iniquity, being by nature children of wrath, and being made sinners, therefore being separated from God.
As I have said many times, mistaken views are based on (1) speculation rather than a minimalist approach to stick with what is actually said, and (2) shoddy bible study using liberal, i.e. loose and approximate, understandings of scripture.
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