convicted1
Guest
An honest question....how do you define election? How do you see God bringing in the elect from all over the world?
Okay, so that should have been stated "An honest questions"....:laugh: :tongue3:
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So Sad
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An honest question....how do you define election? How do you see God bringing in the elect from all over the world?
Okay, so that should have been stated "An honest questions"....:laugh: :tongue3:
I'm not sure this response is contemplating the questions asked in the OP. It appears in your response you choose to dismiss the thought of your loved ones not getting chosen and choose to stay focused on your own joy.
No depression or sadness? It seems that many of the responses I am reading is that of not really caring about loved ones not chosen for joy but left to pain and suffering.
The Calvinist likes to use the expression "All of God" when debating Election. They would say the "human involvement" factor cannot coexist with an "All of God" position in the salvation process. Yet they will allow the "human involvement" factor along with "All of God" when it comes to "bringing others to Christ". Truth is, both the Cal and the NonCAl hold to an "All of God" position when it comes to the saving regeneration of God.
I will not blame God, for God has said, "what else could I have done". God has made salvation available to "whosoever will come, let them come".
Thousand Hills
Active Member
In a now closed thread from May GreekTim posted this, if you didn't watch it then watch it now.
While we are responsible as parents for guidance, and responsible to share the gospel with others in our family, the bottom line is that each of us are individually responsible before God. As deep as the bond of love may run in family/friend situations, and as much as we desire to see others we know saved, what does the scripture say about what we should desire most?
Matthew 10:32-37
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Thousand Hills
Active Member
SW, I believe you are genuinely trying to understand the Cal viewpoint on these things. Here is a good sermon by Spurgeon.
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
One quote in particular that helped me better understand election is:
As Willis (C1) and Icon have both pointed out, its all about our view of the fall, which includes an honest assessment of ourselves before a Holy and righteous God, everything hinges on that.
Is this a serious question? This has absolutely nothing to do with this debate. Would you say it would be right for God to destroy us all in hell? I say it would be wrong for God to destroy us all in hell even though it would be just according to God's Law of sin and death. But there is another Law God decreed before the foundation of the world and that Law must be followed as well less God not do right, that is God's Law for eternal life whom God promised before the world began.
Another serious question? And this offers what to the OP?
Yes, for I believe they had a freewill choice to believe God.
I disagree, if God makes a promise it is guaranteed. Unless of course God has conditioned the promise upon a freewill human response. Do you believe God has conditioned the promise of Eternal Life upon a freewill human response? If "wisdom" is the factor by which you are "alright" with God's decisions, then you are contradicting your belief in TULIP. For God's "wisdom" would come out of God's "foreknowledge" of what shall come to pass.
Is this your response to the OP? It seems you are just fine with your children suffering in hell, or your brothers or sisters, I get a sense of "hey, they deserve it" from your post. So you feel no sadness that they must be tortured in hell because God didn't pick them for life and joy and happiness?
Wow, this now makes me sad for you and I pray all Calvinist do not have such a cold hearted feeling towards their loved ones. This is what concerns me about the beliefs of Calvinism, I'm afraid it hardens the heart towards the lost, even one's own children and family. :tear:
You have to understand how to debate the Scriptures brother. This is not a debate over whether or not one believes the Scriptures, I hope you know this. All debates are over interpretations and applications.
I will personally be rejoicing with God "For true and righteous are his judgments". Our disagreement is how those righteous judgments came to be.
I'm not sure why you posted this, I didn't see anything in the OP that suggested such a thought. We all know everyone will not be saved, the debate is over the "why".
Make you a deal, I won't call your view evil and you won't call my view evil, and we can just try to understand why each other sees things the way they do. :love2:
Amen! :thumbsup:You see, we do have agreement, and probably in many areas if a list was to be made.
You could start a new thread with those statements concerning Arminians, I doubt they believe as you portrayed them to believe. But this thread is about how one's beliefs causes them to feel about those whom God passes over concerning salvation.
I think you are missing the questions in the OP, at least I hope that is the case. It seems many of the responses to the OP is "who cares about them" I'm just happy God saved ME!
I know we get a lot of these statements in these debates, they really add nothing for we all believe God has every right to do as He pleases. However, God does ask us to reply to Him, afterall, it is a relationship He seeks. He says, "come, let us reason together". God allowed Moses to reply, I think of Abraham replying, and really pushing back against God for the sake of Lot. So I believe God likes questions and replies according to what I find in the Scriptures.
I don't think it did much mirroring of my OP. It would make a good OP for another thread topic. I suggest he post it as a new thread.
I believe the fall condemned all mankind to hell, from conception. But I disagree God did not have to send Jesus Christ. I say this because even before Creation and before the fall, God promised Eternal Life.
Remember this thread is not about being mad at God or blaming God. It is about if one feels sad or depressed that God would not choose their loved one and how you feel about raising your little girl, loving her to death, and then God just passing her by and placing her in hell for an eternity of torture.
The Calvinist response seems to be "so what, she deserved it, who are we to question God".
My response as a non-Cal is sadness, not because God didn't do something, but because my little girl rejected the only way of salvation. It would be heart breaking.
That's actually a "no answer". So I asked the Cal how he or she feels about the consequences of their belief system when it comes to a beloved parent or child or friend and this makes me a "rebellious soul" in need of repentance?
We need to face the implications of our held beliefs. Does God desire us to develop apathy towards the lost? I see a lot of "they deserve it" answers.
steaver
I rejoice in God's eternal purpose ...knowing that the God of all the earth will do right......Do you not believe God will do right Steaver?
You say this has nothing to do with this post
This is why you are not understanding what you should from scripture. We have to start with who God is. You are starting with misguided emotions that are contrary right from the start.
You are suggesting quite clearly that Gen 18:25 is not true. You are suggesting that for God to punish anyone in hell is not right when the testimony of scripture is...that it is Holy and Just.
I trust the God of the bible Steaver. This is one of those vague questions in that...on one hand...we all deserve Hell. On the other hand judgement is not random. God's eternal plan is revealed to the church.He has died a covenant death for those elected. This is reality and actual...not potential.
We did not write these verses but we believe them...
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Further more...if God sending us to hell was what was the right thing to do...he would...for His own glory. I am okay with that.Who am I to demand anything of God? I have asked Him to have mercy upon me and forgive me. I used to rebel against God, now I believe as he has enabled me to.
Here is another Steaver...notice how most of these verses on election and predestination are right in the beginning of the letters 2tim1 titus 1 eph 1 that is because Paul wanted to depress us and bring great sorrow over us? or because this view of God is a great comfort and source of joy.
You said to Reformed that he wanted to focus on himself...but you miss that we rejoice and have joy in the truth of gen 18:25...and we trust God more than we trust men...even our own families.
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Then I posted;
Perhaps if you do not have confidence In the promises offered to the sheep.
Because of the fall God had already marked out a people for Himself or none would be saved.
This is what scripture teaches as written. When you do not believe it as written what is left are these dark scenerios that you and others suggest.
There is no freewill...so again you are trying to invent another whole biblical story. You can wrestle with that...I am not following fables and human philosophy.
God not only makes promises but ordains the means for those promises to come to fruition. there is a promise of life to those who are found in the last Adam...and a promise of certain death to all who remain dead in the first Adam.
No..as it does not exist; from the 1689;
3. God's Decree
1.God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.
- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.
2. Although God knows everything which may or can come to pass under all imaginable conditions, yet He has not decreed anything because He foresaw it in the future, or because it would come to pass under certain conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.
4. Those angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and the number of them is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
This is a false understanding of foreknowledge
No Christian is happy that people are on their way to hell and many will go their.Paul who was a Calvinist wrote this;
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
and then;
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Even though you appeal that we not call our postings evil...what can I call this? You describe a god who tortures people, rather than the biblical God who declares he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, or jesus weeping over Jerusalem....that is evil posting to me and I will say so.
Your sorrow is over the caricature that you construct, not over us.
You might not like my "debate style"...I am not looking for style points{perhaps you have noticed this}....I am looking to be faithful to scripture for Kingdom purposes and growth.
God has a Holy purpose in all he does.
Notice.....I did not say, you personally were evil or that you were defective in some way did I? I have to say that the ideas you express seem profane to me, but if you are at all serious I am trying to address your concerns as you addressed cals, looking for a cal response...you are getting a wide range of responses from cal's and non cals.
I rejoice in God's eternal purpose ...knowing that the God of all the earth will do right......Do you not believe God will do right Steaver?
You say this has nothing to do with this post
This is why you are not understanding what you should from scripture. We have to start with who God is. You are starting with misguided emotions that are contrary right from the start.You are suggesting quite clearly that Gen 18:25 is not true. You are suggesting that for God to punish anyone in hell is not right when the testimony of scripture is...that it is Holy and Just.
I trust the God of the bible Steaver. This is one of those vague questions in that...on one hand...we all deserve Hell. On the other hand judgement is not random. God's eternal plan is revealed to the church.He has died a covenant death for those elected. This is reality and actual...not potential.
We did not write these verses but we believe them...
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Further more...if God sending us to hell was what was the right thing to do...he would...for His own glory. I am okay with that.Who am I to demand anything of God? I have asked Him to have mercy upon me and forgive me. I used to rebel against God, now I believe as he has enabled me to.
Yes.....the elect...that is correct that is what 2tim 1:9 is speaking about.
Here is another Steaver...notice how most of these verses on election and predestination are right in the beginning of the letters 2tim1 titus 1 eph 1 that is because Paul wanted to depress us and bring great sorrow over us? or because this view of God is a great comfort and source of joy.
You said to Reformed that he wanted to focus on himself...but you miss that we rejoice and have joy in the truth of gen 18:25...and we trust God more than we trust men...even our own families.
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Then I posted;
Perhaps if you do not have confidence In the promises offered to the sheep.
You said God promised eternal life before the foundation of the world...the way you worded it suggests again a vague promise to no one in particular.Con 1 has pointed out quite correctly this is a wrong view of the fall.
Because of the fall God had already marked out a people for Himself or none would be saved.
This is what scripture teaches as written. When you do not believe it as written what is left are these dark scenerios that you and others suggest.
.
There is no freewill...so again you are trying to invent another whole biblical story. You can wrestle with that...I am not following fables and human philosophy.
.
God not only makes promises but ordains the means for those promises to come to fruition. there is a promise of life to those who are found in the last Adam...and a promise of certain death to all who remain dead in the first Adam.
No..as it does not exist; from the 1689;
3. God's Decree
1.God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.
- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.
2. Although God knows everything which may or can come to pass under all imaginable conditions, yet He has not decreed anything because He foresaw it in the future, or because it would come to pass under certain conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.
4. Those angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and the number of them is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
.
This is a false understanding of foreknowledge
No Christian is happy that people are on their way to hell and many will go their.Paul who was a Calvinist wrote this;
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
and then;
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Even though you appeal that we not call our postings evil...what can I call this? You describe a god who tortures people, rather than the biblical God who declares he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, or jesus weeping over Jerusalem....that is evil posting to me and I will say so.
Your sorrow is over the caricature that you construct, not over us.
You might not like my "debate style"...I am not looking for style points{perhaps you have noticed this}....I am looking to be faithful to scripture for Kingdom purposes and growth.
this is apparent.
God has a Holy purpose in all he does.
Sorry Steaver...no deal. if you believe what I post is evil, make your case against my posting scripturally. I will do the same.When I can agree I will, and when I need to react I will.
Notice.....I did not say, you personally were evil or that you were defective in some way did I? I have to say that the ideas you express seem profane to me, but if you are at all serious I am trying to address your concerns as you addressed cals, looking for a cal response...you are getting a wide range of responses from cal's and non cals.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This is true. This isn't necessarily a problem--conceptualizing the process of salvation differently.
The big problem, the inflammatory problem, comes when persons misstate their opponent's position (Strawman) and will not be teachable or correctable about it.
Can this thread help, by way of explanation, to tear down the Strawmen? Yes, it can. Will it? That's the question....
Blessings,
The Archangel
convicted1
Guest
Before He made this globe, before He created the first angel, when only there was the Triune God, He had us in mind....all mankind. In His plan, He chose to use Jesus to redeem us. He didn't have to choose this, but He did. Once He did, He entered in an everlasting covenant with His Son. We, who He chose from before the foundation of the world, were in that everlasting covenant, as well.
convicted1
Guest
Shall not God always do right? Does He actually owe us anything? Remember, we all deserved hell, being sinners. He didn't owe us one thing. Yet, He gave the very best He had to offer when He sent His Son to die for us. The guiltless for the guilty. If it makes you sad that God passes by those who actually deserve hell, then that's your choice. I don't like to see people die lost, either, but myriads have and will.
:thumbsup: That's supported by scripture.
That's what fallen mankind always does...reject the only way of salvation. That's free will in a nutshell....people freely choose to reject Him. Free will is the only thing that keeps sinners from coming to Him. Unless God exchanges their stony heart with a fleshly heart, they'll die eternally tormented....
It was because of God's foreknowledge that he planned before the foundation of the world to redeem man, because he foreknew man would sin. He did not plan this sin, nor desire it, yet he knew men would choose to sin against him.
And God did choose persons from the beginning through belief in the truth (2 The 2:13). But how could those persons believe before they existed? They couldn't, but again, God in his foreknowledge could see who would believe in time, and chose these persons. This is why the scriptures say we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
You will say, but this speaks of a personal, intimate relationship, and you would be correct, but God knows no person in a personal and intimate way until that persons trusts Christ.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Note that only "now" do we know God, but more importantly, note that only "now" are we "known of God". God does not know us in this personal and intimate relationship until we actually trust Jesus in time.
So how could God foreknow us in a personal relationship before the foundation of the world?
Again, the answer is foreknowledge. Before the foundation of the world God the Father could foresee those persons who would believe on Jesus and be "in him" in time (Rom 16:7).
God does not pass over people, God desires that all men be saved. But God gives all men free will, he does not force anyone to love him or choose him. We can pray to God to be patient with our loved ones who are not saved, and not to "give them over" to a reprobate mind as described in Romans 1. God is patient, but even God has a point where he gives up on a man. In these instances we can pray and ask God to be even more forgiving and patient, and to cause those things that might bring our loved one to repentance, though they must make that decision themselves.
In Calvinism, prayer for your loved ones is vain and meaningless, it will not change a thing God has already decreed. If God has chosen to pass by your children, your tears will not affect him, he will cast them into hell for his pleasure and glory.
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