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So Sad
- Thread starter steaver
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Does God have the Sovereign Right to choose whom He shall save? Yes, of course, absolutely!
Does God have the Sovereign Right to choose to send everybody to hellfire? Oh my yes, we all deserve it for sure!
Does God have the Sovereign Right to offer a choice of salvation to all who will believe on Jesus Christ? Ah......ole.......um........well..............
Does God have the Sovereign Right to choose to send everybody to hellfire? Oh my yes, we all deserve it for sure!
Does God have the Sovereign Right to offer a choice of salvation to all who will believe on Jesus Christ? Ah......ole.......um........well..............
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
OK.
Would it sadden me? In one sense, yes--likely the same sense in which you'd be saddened.
The Bible affirms two things: The absolute sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. So, those going to hell do so willingly. Those going to heaven do so willingly, because God makes the once-unilling willing.
Essentially, you're OP is asking a question of us based on a misunderstanding of what we believe. We do have hope that God will save. We pray for Him to change hearts--just as the Arminians do. But, those who do not repent and believe do so in their own free will. Those who do repent and believe also do so in their own free will--it's just that God has given them a new heart and that new heart is now willing, whereas the old heart was unwilling.
God is not like the old, cranky businessman standing behind the closed and locked door, as someone comes up trying to enter, standing there saying "sorry we're closed."
We hope, pray, and plead with God to save, much the same as you do. We do not know who the Elect are, so we hope, pray, work, plead, beg, etc. So, in the end, the sense of sadness is likely the same.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This is the logical fallacy of "Begging the Question." The question assumes the answer and, in this case, assumes that we--the Calvinists--believe that he doesn't offer salvation to all.
While it would be difficult to argue that all--being all without exception--have been given an offer of salvation (I'm thinking of as yet unreached people groups and those who were living on the American continents in AD500 or so), it is the case that Calvinists who preach a biblical Gospel (and there are those that don't) preach indiscriminately, offering the offer of salvation to all.
But, in your question there is a conundrum: No choice is offered to the unreached (past, present, or future). So, what you're asking about is the proverbial "Square circle." God has always offered some the Gospel. Yet, He, through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, guarantees that some of the some will accept.
The Archangel
Ok, well I would like to stick with the OP which is personal. This is your child we are speaking of here. Would it sadden you if God did not choose her, or him, for salvation and she, or he, must go to a torment of hell for eternity?
I would presume your answer would be that it would tear your heart to pieces, at least I hope that would be your answer. Another poster said they would side with "she deserved what she got". Very disturbing indeed.
So my follow up question then would be, do you think God will then one day cause you to forget about your suffering child and erase any memory of her for you, so you don't suffer in your eternal life having to remember her?
But you are assuming they have been unreached because a human being preaching the gospel has not spoken with them. There are many testimonies of angels and the Lord Himself visiting people groups or individuals whether physically or through dreams.
Will not the Lord of all the earth do what is right?
Scripture please...........
convicted1
Guest
Interesting................raying:
I will give you an analogy, and I know no analogy is 100% bulletproof, and many holes may be shown by others, but I am using it to bring about what we see in the way God deals with sinners.
Sinners are driving in a car that is headed for hell. They're enjoying it, eventhough they may see many road signs telling them to "stop", "turn around", "do not enter", &c. They are going along, enjoying their trip. Unless God comes in and turns the wheel of that car they're driving in Himself, they won't turn around, and do not have a desire to turn around. They're enjoying their trip.
Those whom He chose, He comes in and turns their steering wheel for them, seeing they were unwilling to do those themselves and changes their course, and puts them on another road that leads to heaven. They're still sitting behind the wheel, but God turned them around all by Himself...
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Your questioning, again, assumes there is some injustice with my unbelieving child being in hell.
My youngest daughter, if she remains unregenerate, will be the greatest criminal mind of our time. I pray for her quite a bit--that God will change her heart, as I pray for my older daughter, too. If either of them reject Christ, I will be very sad and, yes, it will tear my heart to pieces.
However, they will indeed deserve hell--as we all do. The question I will wrestle with for all eternity is NOT why didn't God save my daughters. No, rather, I will struggle greatly with the question "why did He save me?"
As for my "eternal suffering" missing my daughter(s)... I don't know. I'd imagine the type of suffering you're asking about is the suffering that comes about through injustice. There is no injustice with God, all His judgements are right. So, I don't think remembering her will bring pain of any kind. It will further remind me that I do not deserve heaven by any measure and her absence will likely cause me to marvel all the more at my own salvation.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
What does Romans 10 say: "How will they hear without a preacher?" The Greek assumes the answer "They won't."
Angels and Christ are not given the task of making disciples, we are. If, and this is a big "if," Christ or an Angel appears to someone it is to lead them to someone--a human--to preach the Gospel to them.
And, with your last statement, you're assuming God must offer salvation to all in order to do "right." You're taking your standard of "right" and requiring it of God.
The Archangel
convicted1
Guest
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 2:13,14)
"That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thess. 2:12,13)
"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."(1 Peter 1:15,16)
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."(1 Peter 2:9,10)
"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."(1 Peter 5:10)
Salvation is much more than a mere offering, but it is a gift, a calling, if you will. The gift of God which brings salvation is Jesus Christ. That gift was nailed to a tree, and took the sins of the church, the sheep, His elect, upon Himself, and paid their sin debt in full. That was the gift, Jesus Christ dying for the church, His bride. He then goes and calls them out from amongst the goats by the gospel.
None of those verses say we are regenerated so we can believe.
convicted1
Guest
I was unclear which you meant....the offer not being an offer, but a gift.....
or...........
.......regeneration so we can believe.......
Both, just because it is a gift in no way negates the possibilty it is an offer.
This post seems a bit sick...almost demented....you have been given many answers but do not really want an answer.
Wow, Archangel would not be all that upset if his daughters perish, he would be more disturbed because he is saved. Right.
Paul said that he wished he was accursed for his fellow Jews that were lost. Is Paul saying he is resisting God's will?
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Paul was so concerned with his fellow Jews that were lost, that he wished he were accursed if they could be saved.
This makes absolutely no sense if Calvinism is true. But it does make sense if God can be entreated on behalf of sinners. As I said before, we can always pray that God will be patient and longsuffering toward our friends and family who are not believers, and might bring about circumstances that would encourage them to believe.
For instance, my younger brother was not a believer, but he became very open toward the gospel when our father passed away. He at least would listen to the gospel, where he wouldn't before. I don't know if my brother believed, as he had a sudden heart attack and died at only 53, but at least he was open to the gospel before he died, and it is my hope I will see him in heaven some day.
If Calvinism is true, then people love more than God. If my brother was lost and Calvinism is true, I loved my brother and wanted him saved, but God did not.
This is unbelievable doctrine.
convicted1
Guest
"And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews, this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.' Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?' Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:1-6 YLT)
Jesus told Nicodemus twice that being born from above, being born of the Spirit is the only way one can see the kindgom /reign of God...
And to finish this off......
"but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'"(John 3:21 YLT)
Those who come to the Light, are already doing the truth. Them coming to the Light are showing the work of God already at work within them....
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
There is an insurmountable daftness in you in that you see and read only what you want to see and read, not what is actually written. HOW DARE YOU suggest that I not be "all that upset if my daughters perish."
I in no way, shape, or form said that. In fact, I said "I would be very sad and it would tear my heart to pieces."
If it were possible, I would gladly trade my salvation for the salvation of my daughters--in a heartbeat. Paul said, essentially, the same thing. He knows it can't happen, but wishes it could.
Really, Winman, you have stepped to a new low in your resetting my words. Perhaps you should try actually reading what is written.
The Archangel
Ok so they are saved born again. Those who reject God and are lost do not.
Willis, this scripture does not say a man must be regenerated to believe. It says a man must be born again to see or enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus told Nicodemus exactly how to be born again in this same chapter, by looking to him in faith. Jesus compared being dead in sin to those persons who were bitten by fiery serpents in the wilderness. All they had to do was look in faith to the brass serpent on a pole to be saved. Likewise, Jesus told Nicodemus he must believe on him to be saved.
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Nicodemus knew the story of the Jews who sinned and were bitten by fiery serpents in the wilderness. And he knew all who looked to that brass serpent were saved.
And Jesus told Nicodemus exactly what he must do to be saved and see the kingdom of heaven, believe on him.
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