So Sad

[pinoybaptist]

That's actually a "no answer". So I asked the Cal how he or she feels about the consequences of their belief system when it comes to a beloved parent or child or friend and this makes me a "rebellious soul" in need of repentance?

We need to face the implications of our held beliefs. Does God desire us to develop apathy towards the lost? I see a lot of "they deserve it" answers.

OK. Are you ready to face the implications of your held beliefs ? The implications are that God has no right to do what he pleases and if He does then He is unfair and untrue to Himself. Did He have a right to do as He pleased with Job's family ?

 

[RLBosley]

You could start a new thread with those statements concerning Arminians, I doubt they believe as you portrayed them to believe. But this thread is about how one's beliefs causes them to feel about those whom God passes over concerning salvation.

And you think your post accurately portrays how Calvinists feel or believe?

 

[Rippon]

Steaver seems to think that God can do whatever He pleases --but He better not lay a finger against any of my loved ones or I will be angry/sad with Him.

 

[kyredneck]

.....I would be shocked to find an ounce of sincerity in the OP.

:thumbsup:

....but it will make for some conversation....

 

[steaver]

And you think your post accurately portrays how Calvinists feel or believe?

The OP asked questions about emotions resulting from beliefs. The answers I have been getting is "you shouldn't have any". I see a lot of apathy for the lost, even the loss of one's own children. This in itself is very troubling.

 

[steaver]

Steaver seems to think that God can do whatever He pleases --but He better not lay a finger against any of my loved ones or I will be angry/sad with Him.

I don't believe you have been following my post very well. If you look closer you will see that I stated God is under no obligation to save my child and if my child gets passed by I will be very sad, but not because God didn't do anything, but rather because God did do everything with the exception of forcing her to believe and she freely chose to reject God. Not that she could not, but because she simply would not as Jesus puts it. Whosoever, may come.

 

[steaver]

OK. Are you ready to face the implications of your held beliefs ? The implications are that God has no right to do what he pleases and if He does then He is unfair and untrue to Himself. Did He have a right to do as He pleased with Job's family ?

Yes He did. Did God have the right to offer salvation to all who would freely choose to follow Jesus Christ?

 

[steaver]

I must say I am a bit surprised by all of the apathy written in the responses to the OP questions. Is this what happens when one embraces the TULIP theology?

Maybe this small sampling here of Calvinist opinions is not reflective of the whole. I pray it is not. Is there anyone here who actually has a spouse or a child, or a parent who is lost? Or has anyone here actually had a loved one pass away and gone into an eternity of hell? Maybe someone who dearly loves their family could respond about how this makes them feel. I pray someone has some emotions left deep inside somewhere.

 

[Reformed]

I'm not sure this response is contemplating the questions asked in the OP. It appears in your response you choose to dismiss the thought of your loved ones not getting chosen and choose to stay focused on your own joy.

To be honest I ignored the rest of your post because all it was an attempt to pick a fight.

I do not rejoice over anybody who dies in their sins. It is a grievous thing to pass into a Christ-less eternity So, instead of lamenting the condition of the lost, you use it to make points. Am I God? Can I say with surety that a person who died did so in the Lord? For that matter can I say with surety that they died lost? On this side of glory we can never know for sure. By observing what people confess and practice we may have a strong indication of where they stand in the Lord, but we lack perfect knowledge.

I cannot blame God if he chooses to pass over someone I know or love. I may grieve if I believe that person perished in their sins, but I will not go into a state of depression. Whether we believe or not, God is righteous and holy and deserving of our praise. He is not capricious. None of us know the depth of God's knowledge; how all events are weaved into the tapestry of his will. When the wicked perish it is for a reason. Their tragic end may be what God uses to call one of his elect.

Am I concerned about the condition of the lost? Yes. But I rejoice knowing God is sovereign and that he called me to be one of his children. I am able to do both without diminishing the other.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yes He did. Did God have the right to offer salvation to all who would freely choose to follow Jesus Christ?

Offer ?
There is no offer. None at all.
Salvation was freely given by God to whomever He chose to, not whoever chose Him.
Why should God have the right to do what He pleased with Job and His family, and not the right to choose for Himself who enters into His heaven because He wants them to ?
Now, who's putting God in a box as we of the doctrine of grace have often been accused of doing ?

 

[convicted1]

God is under no obligation to save my child

:thumbsup:

but rather because God did do everything with the exception of forcing her to believe and she freely chose to reject God.

So then God can't do whatsoever He pleases?

Not that she could not, but because she simply would not as Jesus puts it.

Neither side of the debate disagrees with this, or at least I agree with this. This is the sinner's natural inclination, to reject, to run away from, to tromp down God's mercy. That's all they do. That's all they know to do. It takes God to come in and take the reins....

Jeremiah 31:18
"I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself, `Thou hast chastised me, And I am chastised, as a heifer not taught, Turn me back, and I turn back, For thou [art] Jehovah my God."(YLT)

"I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.(KJV)

When God turns a man, he's turned. :thumbsup:

Whosoever, may come.

Again, neither side of this debate disagrees with this, at least I agree with this. :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

Offer ?
There is no offer. None at all.
Salvation was freely given by God to whomever He chose to, not whoever chose Him.
Why should God have the right to do what He pleased with Job and His family, and not the right to choose for Himself who enters into His heaven because He wants them to ?
Now, who's putting God in a box as we of the doctrine of grace have often been accused of doing ?

Does God have the right to offer salvation to all who will believe on Jesus Christ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To be honest I ignored the rest of your post because all it was an attempt to pick a fight.

I do not rejoice over anybody who dies in their sins. It is a grievous thing to pass into a Christ-less eternity So, instead of lamenting the condition of the lost, you use it to make points. Am I God? Can I say with surety that a person who died did so in the Lord? For that matter can I say with surety that they died lost? On this side of glory we can never know for sure. By observing what people confess and practice we may have a strong indication of where they stand in the Lord, but we lack perfect knowledge.

I cannot blame God if he chooses to pass over someone I know or love. I may grieve if I believe that person perished in their sins, but I will not go into a state of depression. Whether we believe or not, God is righteous and holy and deserving of our praise. He is not capricious. None of us know the depth of God's knowledge; how all events are weaved into the tapestry of his will. When the wicked perish it is for a reason. Their tragic end may be what God uses to call one of his elect.

Am I concerned about the condition of the lost? Yes. But I rejoice knowing God is sovereign and that he called me to be one of his children. I am able to do both without diminishing the other.

You have detected an agenda did you my brother.....LoL :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

:thumbsup:






Jeremiah 31:18
"I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself, `Thou hast chastised me, And I am chastised, as a heifer not taught, Turn me back, and I turn back, For thou [art] Jehovah my God."(YLT)

"I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.(KJV)

When God turns a man, he's turned. :thumbsup:

Are not these pleas coming from one who already believes on the Lord and is calling on Him for guidance?

Otherwise, this passage shows a person must ask for God's turning and then God shall do it.

 

[steaver]

You have detected an agenda did you my brother.....LoL :thumbs:

And what would that be? Please share :thumbs:

 

[The Archangel]

I would like to know how the Calvinist deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their belief of TULIP's Election process?

When I ponder such a position, if I were to entertain having such a thought, immediately I sense depression and sadness.

What does the Calvinist feel as they think about God passing by their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children? When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God chose to passed them by in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved? All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone.

How do you deal with that? Does God want you to experience such turmoil as a Christian? If you search your hearts, do you really feel the weight of TULIP's positions? Is God really a God that would pass by your loved one by choice, with no regards of how that impacts your own spirit?

How will you cope with eternity, knowing your little girl or little boy, or your sister or brother, mother or father, was spending eternity in hell, not because they by their own free will rejected God, but knowing it is because God chose to let them suffer, and you have to live eternally knowing they still exist, but are suffering everyday you live in joy and splendor.

I personally, knowing they had a choice, will feel sorrow for them. But to know God just abandoned them without hope, if that be true, how will I spend eternal life in joy?

Just some thoughts.......

I have been refraining from posting for reasons similar to the ones expressed by Reformed. Let me offer the following:

1. No one goes to Hell unwillingly.

There are some that think God saves and damns actively. I think the Bible clearly shows that we are all damned already. What God does in salvation is not to send struggling, drowning sinners a life preserver, instead He recussitates those who have already drowned and are lifeless at the bottom of the ocean being eaten by fish.

Those who are dead, however, want to be so.

2. We desperately plead with all to come to Christ in repentance and faith

One thing that Romans 10 shows us is this: We must take the Gospel to people, the people must hear the Gospel, and they must respond to the Gospel in order to be saved. There is an offer of salvation and it is made through us as Christ's ambassadors.

3. We pray--earnestly--that God will save

God ordains the ends (salvation) AND the means (our evangelism, our prayer, etc.). So, in essence we pray for and work for the salvation of our friends, family, strangers, etc. God is often pleased to grant our petitions to save.

4. Our evangelism efforts are not primarily man-ward, but God-driven

We preach the Gospel because we are commanded to AND because we understand it is the only way of salvation for those we love. And so we beg and plead, and we offer the Gospel, trusting that God will regenerate and salvation will come to our friends.

Also, if one preaches the Gospel simply out of a love for "man," it is very possible to lose that love--especially if a hostile tribe kills your husband or father (see: Elizabeth Elliot and Rachael Saint). But, if one preaches the Gospel because he must do so out of obedience, then you go to the husband/father killing tribe--even after they kill your husband/father--and plead with them to accept Christ (see: Steve Saint...who was baptized by the man that killed his own father).

So, our praying for and working for people to come to Christ is no different from an Arminian praying for and working for people to come to Christ.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

Does God have the right to offer salvation to all who will believe on Jesus Christ?

Those who truly seek Christ with their heart, have already be given salvation. Blessed(past tense) are they with hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall(positive word) be filled. Those who hunger and thirst already have the grace of God working a will and a do to come to Him.


And as others have stated before, salvation is NOT an offer, but a gift...

 

[steaver]

I have been refraining from posting for reasons similar to the ones expressed by Reformed. Let me offer the following:

1. No one goes to Hell unwillingly.

There are some that think God saves and damns actively. I think the Bible clearly shows that we are all damned already. What God does in salvation is not to send struggling, drowning sinners a life preserver, instead He recussitates those who have already drowned and are lifeless at the bottom of the ocean being eaten by fish.

Those who are dead, however, want to be so.

2. We desperately plead with all to come to Christ in repentance and faith

One thing that Romans 10 shows us is this: We must take the Gospel to people, the people must hear the Gospel, and they must respond to the Gospel in order to be saved. There is an offer of salvation and it is made through us as Christ's ambassadors.

3. We pray--earnestly--that God will save

God ordains the ends (salvation) AND the means (our evangelism, our prayer, etc.). So, in essence we pray for and work for the salvation of our friends, family, strangers, etc. God is often pleased to grant our petitions to save.

4. Our evangelism efforts are not primarily man-ward, but God-driven

We preach the Gospel because we are commanded to AND because we understand it is the only way of salvation for those we love. And so we beg and plead, and we offer the Gospel, trusting that God will regenerate and salvation will come to our friends.

Also, if one preaches the Gospel simply out of a love for "man," it is very possible to lose that love--especially if a hostile tribe kills your husband or father (see: Elizabeth Elliot and Rachael Saint). But, if one preaches the Gospel because he must do so out of obedience, then you go to the husband/father killing tribe--even after they kill your husband/father--and plead with them to accept Christ (see: Steve Saint...who was baptized by the man that killed his own father).

So, our praying for and working for people to come to Christ is no different from an Arminian praying for and working for people to come to Christ.

The Archangel

That's all good stuff Arch, and of course gets debated to death here on the BB. But respectfully, it does nothing to answering the OP questions about your emotions towards your loved ones. Would it sadden you if God has chosen to leave your children suffer in hell?

 

[steaver]

Those who truly seek Christ with their heart, have already be given salvation. Blessed(past tense) are they with hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall(positive word) be filled. Those who hunger and thirst already have the grace of God working a will and a do to come to Him.


And as others have stated before, salvation is NOT an offer, but a gift...

With all due respect, that did not answer the question....

Does God have the right to offer salvation to all who will believe on Jesus Christ?

 

[convicted1]

With all due respect, that did not answer the question....

Does God have the right to offer salvation to all who will believe on Jesus Christ?

Again, salvation isn't an offer, but a gift. He gives salvation to whosoever He wills....

Only those who God has regenerated have the abillity, the desire, the "want to", to believe on Jesus Christ.