So Sad

[Winman]

Brother, to blatantly misquote what Brother ArchAngel posted is just plain sick.......

Yes it would, but I copied and pasted EXACTLY what he said. Maybe he regrets that one statement, but he made it, and I posted it accurately.

The OP is about how Calvinists feel about God passing by their friends and loved ones;

What does the Calvinist feel as they think about God passing by their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children? When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God chose to passed them by in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved? All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone.

Archangel answered this question, and here is what he said verbatim;

My youngest daughter, if she remains unregenerate, will be the greatest criminal mind of our time. I pray for her quite a bit--that God will change her heart, as I pray for my older daughter, too. If either of them reject Christ, I will be very sad and, yes, it will tear my heart to pieces.

However, they will indeed deserve hell--as we all do. The question I will wrestle with for all eternity is NOT why didn't God save my daughters. No, rather, I will struggle greatly with the question "why did He save me?"

As for my "eternal suffering" missing my daughter(s)... I don't know. I'd imagine the type of suffering you're asking about is the suffering that comes about through injustice. There is no injustice with God, all His judgements are right. So, I don't think remembering her will bring pain of any kind. It will further remind me that I do not deserve heaven by any measure and her absence will likely cause me to marvel all the more at my own salvation.

OK, he says he would be sad, very, very sad if his daughters reject Christ.

But then he says they deserve hell, and he would not wrestle with this, but his issue for eternity would be why God saved him. Oh, how humble.

Here is the problem; In Calvinism, God is the one who decides where you will spend eternity. Your sin is not the reason you go to hell, because in Calvinism, if God elects you, you will go to heaven despite the fact that you are a sinner. And in Calvinism, if God chooses to pass you by, there is nothing you can do to change that.

Sin is just the means God uses to send you to hell in Calvinism, just as the gospel is the means God uses to send you to heaven in Calvinism.

In Calvinism, if your family members go to hell, it is because that is what pleased God. He did not choose this because of their sin, election is UNCONDITIONAL.

See, you Calvinists suddenly forget that. You suddenly forget that election is unconditional. It has NOTHING to do with being a sinner, it is because God is pleased to send your loved ones to hell and torture them forever, because it pleases him and glorifies him. It is not because they sinned.

And you guys are all "Honky Dory" with that. YOU are saved, who cares what happens to anybody else? You guys will spend all your time wondering why God picked you, how humble!

 

[Sapper Woody]

Question....do you private message Calvinists?

Yes. I don't believe like a Calvinist, but who better to represent what they think than one?

 

[Reformed]

I wish these threads could stay in the realm of discussion, rather than name calling and argument and straw men. I'd really like to learn some things, but it's impossible here. I've PM'd a couple of you to try and engage in private discussion, rather than public argument.

The only problem with PM's is that they deny others the benefits that come from a good discussion.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The only problem with PM's is that they deny others the benefits that come from a good discussion.

I agree. Sadly, that's the only way to actually have a discussion without instant derailment. For example, I started a thread to ask questions of Cals, but it deteriorated so quick that I hardly posted in the thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree. Sadly, that's the only way to actually have a discussion without instant derailment. For example, I started a thread to ask questions of Cals, but it deteriorated so quick that I hardly posted in the thread.

If you ask the Calvinists only and winman shows up to disrupt. ...ask him to refrain from your thread.

 

[Winman]

If you ask the Calvinists only and winman shows up to disrupt. ...ask him to refrain from your thread.

Again, I do not have the power to close a thread. It is the moderators who close threads, and more times than not the reason they close a thread is because some Calvinist complains he has been insulted.

In the meantime, Calvinists like you CONSTANTLY imply others are lost. No one complains, because we are secure in our salvation, and also because we are not babies.

It would be nice to have debate without fighting, but that is a dream world. It would be nice to have a world without starvation and war, but that is a dream world too. That will not happen until Jesus returns.

So, be a big boy and live with the heat a little.

 

[Iconoclast]

Again, I do not have the power to close a thread. It is the moderators who close threads, and more times than not the reason they close a thread is because some Calvinist complains he has been insulted.

In the meantime, Calvinists like you CONSTANTLY imply others are lost. No one complains, because we are secure in our salvation, and also because we are not babies.

It would be nice to have debate without fighting, but that is a dream world. It would be nice to have a world without starvation and war, but that is a dream world too. That will not happen until Jesus returns.

So, be a big boy and live with the heat a little.

SW asked for Calvinists to answer.....so you but in to disrupt the thread as you do everytime. Your posts do not generate any heat as they are not even close to the teaching of scripture. Most do not read them anymore except to use them to show how error comes to be.

 

[Winman]

SW asked for Calvinists to answer.....so you but in to disrupt the thread as you do everytime. Your posts do not generate any heat as they are not even close to the teaching of scripture. Most do not read them anymore except to use them to show how error comes to be.

Anybody can participate in a public debate. PM Steaver if you do not want me to see your posts and respond to them. If you say something I think is error, I am allowed to respond, that is what the debate forum is for.

The problem is, many Calvinists (not you) cannot stand disagreement with their views, and some cannot handle it when they are clearly coming up on the short end in a debate. So they scream foul and that they have been insulted and contact a moderator who quickly closes the thread.

I have been called liar, heretic, Pelagian, blasphemer, reprobate and all sorts of names by Calvinists hundreds of times since I came to BB, and I have never gone to a moderator and requested a thread be closed, not once.

So, don't tell me moderators close threads whenever they see an insult, they sure don't close threads when folks insult me, and I am glad they don't. I can handle it, and I enjoy the debate.

So, blame me all you want, it is mostly Calvinists who cannot stand to be refuted and complain to moderators that results in the vast majority of threads being closed. FACT.

But many folks are not interested in facts around here.

 

[Reformed]

I agree. Sadly, that's the only way to actually have a discussion without instant derailment. For example, I started a thread to ask questions of Cals, but it deteriorated so quick that I hardly posted in the thread.

Sapper, I am not telling you to put certain posters on ignore, but that is the only way I am able to maintain a certain degree of profitable discussion. I have no problem with sharp disagreement, but there is a difference between disagreement and hit jobs. In the end you have to do what is best for you if you intend to remain active on this board.

 

[steaver]

I have studied the scriptures now for some 16 years now. I am an independent thinker. I do not simply follow any person's teaching. What they say and what they teach must harmonize with the FULL counsel of God's Word.

There are two major contributors to developing my positions; The Word of God and the Holy Spirit. I also seek out commentary, listen to pastor preach and teach, along with other teachers in the church, but ultimately whatever is being taught must pass the Word of God test and the Holy Spirit within me test.

I pray earnestly while I study and consider, asking the Spirit to reveal to me the truth, to open my eyes, even to override any bias or blindness that I might be having which would hamper me from understanding the truth.

I am sincere in this. I do not ask for the Spirit to help me prove MY position, I want to know the truth for I know I must stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account for what I taught to others.

The time I have spent on this board debating with Calvinist has helped solidify what I believe the Spirit has already been teaching me about the doctrine of TULIP. It is a misguided interpretation and application of scripture. Why a Christian would embrace such a doctrine and defend it so adamantly is a mystery to me. The only explanation that comes to my mind is that the Holy Spirit was not desperately sought while studying and searching the scriptures to see if these things be true. I guess it is what it is, the only thing that comes to mind is the trying of our works, when some will watch their wood, hay and stubble burn up, yet he himself shall be saved.

I believe if one truly examines the final conclusions and life applications of TULIP, they will come to see how emotions must be denied, even the emotion of sadness, the heart begins to harden, to the point of turning on one's own children whom God has passed by and needing to say "they deserved what they got".

I don't ever want to be one of those Christians who say "they" deserve what "they" got! But for me, "I" will rejoice that "I" got picked for life! No, I will say as Paul said, I would rather be accursed from Christ if it could save my sons and daughters!

Eternal life is a gift from God offered to all through choice. Until the Holy Spirit tells me any different, this is what I will believe and teach, and this is what I have seen revealed throughout the scriptures. No man will change my mind, it will have to be the Bible or the Holy Spirit within me, and thus far both are showing me freewill choice. From the Calvinist pov, that would mean I was ordained to believe and teach this way (Eph2:10), which indeed causes a conundrum for the TULIP doctrine.

Blessings! :wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

I have studied the scriptures now for some 16 years now. I am an independent thinker. I do not simply follow any person's teaching. What they say and what they teach must harmonize with the FULL counsel of God's Word.

There are two major contributors to developing my positions; The Word of God and the Holy Spirit. I also seek out commentary, listen to pastor preach and teach, along with other teachers in the church, but ultimately whatever is being taught must pass the Word of God test and the Holy Spirit within me test.

I pray earnestly while I study and consider, asking the Spirit to reveal to me the truth, to open my eyes, even to override any bias or blindness that I might be having which would hamper me from understanding the truth.

I am sincere in this. I do not ask for the Spirit to help me prove MY position, I want to know the truth for I know I must stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account for what I taught to others.

The time I have spent on this board debating with Calvinist has helped solidify what I believe the Spirit has already been teaching me about the doctrine of TULIP. It is a misguided interpretation and application of scripture. Why a Christian would embrace such a doctrine and defend it so adamantly is a mystery to me. The only explanation that comes to my mind is that the Holy Spirit was not desperately sought while studying and searching the scriptures to see if these things be true. I guess it is what it is, the only thing that comes to mind is the trying of our works, when some will watch their wood, hay and stubble burn up, yet he himself shall be saved.

I believe if one truly examines the final conclusions and life applications of TULIP, they will come to see how emotions must be denied, even the emotion of sadness, the heart begins to harden, to the point of turning on one's own children whom God has passed by and needing to say "they deserved what they got".

I don't ever want to be one of those Christians who say "they" deserve what "they" got! But for me, "I" will rejoice that "I" got picked for life! No, I will say as Paul said, I would rather be accursed from Christ if it could save my sons and daughters!

Eternal life is a gift from God offered to all through choice. Until the Holy Spirit tells me any different, this is what I will believe and teach, and this is what I have seen revealed throughout the scriptures. No man will change my mind, it will have to be the Bible or the Holy Spirit within me, and thus far both are showing me freewill choice. From the Calvinist pov, that would mean I was ordained to believe and teach this way (Eph2:10), which indeed causes a conundrum for the TULIP doctrine.

Blessings! :wavey:

The only thing this shows is that there are a few who claim to for the most part on use the bible and Spirit to come to your novel views....

Steaver
Winman
Dconn
Beamup

No thanks...The rest of us will use the Bible, The Holy Spirit, Creeds Confessions, Catechisms, Commentaries, sermons at Church, sermonaudio, and proven teachers given to the church who have stood the test of time.

From the Calvinist pov, that would mean I was ordained to believe and teach this way (Eph2:10), which indeed causes a conundrum for the TULIP doctrine.

Not at all Steaver...error is also ordained as opposed to truth ;

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you

I would not rest carnally secure because God has predestined His Covenant people, the Sheep.

 

[Inspector Javert]

No Christian is happy that people are on their way to hell

Than your Theology is wrong.
It baffles me that on the one hand...God's perfect Glorification depends upon the damned being justly sent to hell, and yet ever an anon the Calvinist cries that God is wrong, or that it is "SAD" that a deserving sinner goes to hell.

It is NOT "Sad" in your theology, it is a GLORIOUS reality to be CELEBRATED!!!

That God's justice and holiness is manifest by the punishment of the sinner whom God has chosen is NOTHING but goodness.

For a Calvinist to claim that a manifestation of God's glory as "Sad" is wicked and wrong.

Icon, you are DIRECTLY opposing God's decree, and who art thou oh, man? to call God's ultimate purpose "sad"???

That Theology fails on every level.
Calvinists regularly demand that God's decrees be other than they are and claim that God's holy and perfect, just decrees are "sad".:tear:

Boo...frikkin...hoo :tear:

Why is God's perfect decree sad to you Icon?
Will not the judge of all the Earth do right?
So, why do you feel sadness for what is perfect in God's eyes?
Why do you insult God's Sovereign choice to condemn men?
Why do you question God's decree??

 

[Inspector Javert]

There is an insurmountable daftness in you in that you see and read only what you want to see and read, not what is actually written.

There is an "insurmountable daftness" inherent in every human being who has ever dared to disagree with his holiness the "Archangel" on any post.

HOW DARE YOU suggest that I not be "all that upset if my daughters perish."

If your Theology had any merit you shouldn't be...
the fact that you claim there is, only means that you take no pleasure in God's ultimate Glory since it is to his perfect just pleasure that they did so, if they did.

So...
If you are saddened by God's perfect plan that they perish, than you merely show that you in no way live out your Theology but, rather, you are sad and possibly angry about what is God's perfect decree.

I in no way, shape, or form said that. In fact, I said "I would be very sad and it would tear my heart to pieces."

Than, God's perfect Holy decree which you have no right to question makes you "sad".
What God desires, in your Theology, saddens you, and "tears your heart to pieces".

It should not be so.
If that Glorifies God to the uttermost, than you have no right nor place to wish otherwise.

If it were possible, I would gladly trade my salvation for the salvation of my daughters--in a heartbeat.

Than what you "wish" is directly opposed to what God wishes.

Paul said, essentially, the same thing. He knows it can't happen, but wishes it could.

Than Paul said that he does (and by extension we should)...hope and "wish" for something that you know is unequivocally opposed to God's perfect, just and holy decree.

That's a stupid Theology.

You believe God's perfect justice and holiness is manifest by one thing...
You desire another thing.

Submit yourself to the will of God, then.

 

[Iconoclast]

Inspector Javert

Than your Theology is wrong.
It baffles me that on the one hand...God's perfect Glorification depends upon the damned being justly sent to hell, and yet ever an anon the Calvinist cries that God is wrong, or that it is "SAD" that a deserving sinner goes to hell.

once again you fail to understand basic theology to attempt to advance your agenda.

A cal expresses sadness in that humanly speaking a person has failed to worship God in a timely fashion...
The fact that I quoted from rev19...and psalm 119 in how the saints rejoice in God's righteous judgement taking place is different from feeling sad that a person loved their sin so much they would perish than believe in God's grace...get it???

It is NOT "Sad" in your theology, it is a GLORIOUS reality to be CELEBRATED!!!

I had also posted about Jesus weeping over Jerusalem...nevertheless he will have the angelic beings cast them into hell from the white throne judgement.

Icon, you are DIRECTLY opposing God's decree, and who art thou oh, man? to call God's ultimate purpose "sad"???

Try again:laugh:

That Theology fails on every level.
Calvinists regularly demand that God's decrees be other than they are and claim that God's holy and perfect, just decrees are "sad".:Boo...frikkin...hoo :tear:

very lame post:laugh:

Why is God's perfect decree sad to you Icon?
Will not the judge of all the Earth do right?
So, why do you feel sadness for what is perfect in God's eyes?
Why do you insult God's Sovereign choice to condemn men?
Why do you question God's decree??

I would say that you are out of theological bullets so you are reduced to spitballs and this pathetic display of foul posting..away with you:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Inspector Javert

There is an "insurmountable daftness" inherent in every human being who has ever dared to disagree with his holiness the "Archangel" on any post.

I have noticed that also...

with you
with winman
and with van

You are still smarting from the greek lesson you were given a week or two ago aren't you??:laugh::wavey:

 

[Inspector Javert]

Icon...
Just answer the question...

Why are you "sad" about what you believe to be God's PERFECT, HOLY, JUST, RIGHT, Will?????

Why are you sad about that?

You just hurl out the thought that I don't "understand basic Theology"...
but, why then, don't you make a more intelligent statement than...

"But you're a dummy-head, and you're wrong"...

Do you have anything else?

You are "Saddened" by God's perfect will.
You have no right to be.
Why do you resist God's will Icon?

Why does it make you "sad"?

If your Theology has any merit, you can answer that question....
Answer it...

Why does God's perfect will make you "sad"?

 

[Inspector Javert]

Inspector Javert


I have noticed that also...

with you
with winman
and with van

You are still smarting from the greek lesson you were given a week or two ago aren't you??:laugh::wavey:

You don't know Greek Icon...
You wouldn't know if someone were "schooled" in Greek or not.....
neither Hebrew, nor Latin, nor Spanish, nor Flemish, nor Dutch...
You are a monoglot...
You don't know, in any argument about foreign languages who is right or wrong...you have no reference point...none.

I've NEVER argued with anyone about "Greek"...I know absolutely NOTHING about the language...
I don't even know the alphabet.....and I never will.
I think learning Greek is pointless actually....

I do know something about Hebrew, and I assure you, I don't make definitive statements about it that I can't back up.

But, you don't know who is either right nor wrong in a debate involving original languages, I am not entirely confident that you understand "Pig-latin".
You couldn't possibly know who was right or wrong in such a debate...
I know NOTHING of Greek...so I don't debate it, and I never have.

 

[Iconoclast]

Inspector Javert

Icon...
Just answer the question...

I did answer you

Why are you "sad" about what you believe to be God's PERFECT, HOLY, JUST, RIGHT, Will?????

Why are you sad about that?

I did answer you

You just hurl out the thought that I don't "understand basic Theology"...
but, why then, don't you make a more intelligent statement than...

"But you're a dummy-head, and you're wrong"...

Do you have anything else?

no..you summed it up...I keep it very simple I like your basic recap:laugh:

If your Theology has any merit, you can answer that question....
Answer it...

Why does God's perfect will make you "sad"?

I did not say that...you are trying to make as if I did say that. Your posts have gone south in these past few months....It seems to be the absence of truth in your posts is creating a mind fog that you can now see anything through this fog....
:wavey:

 

[Inspector Javert]

Icon....back up your Theology...

This question is SOOO simple.

Why does God's perfect, just, holy will make you "sad"?

Did YOU say it made you "Sad"?

Why does it make you "Sad"?

Why does God's perfectly holy just decree make you "Sad"?
Just answer the question.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon....back up your Theology...

This question is SOOO simple.

Why does God's perfect, just, holy will make you "sad"?

Did YOU say it made you "Sad"?

Why does it make you "Sad"?

Why does God's perfectly holy just decree make you "Sad"?
Just answer the question.

I answered steaver in post 36....Nothing God does makes me sad:wavey: