So Sad

[Inspector Javert]

I answered steaver in post 36....Nothing God does makes me sad:wavey:

1.) I didn't ask you to answer "Steaver"....I wanted you to answer ME!
2.) So, then, I now have your official position that the Billions of lost persons who will spend an eternity in Hell does NOT, I repeat, NOT make Icon, "Sad"...


So, then, it is the officially recognized position of Iconoclast that you are not one whit "saddened" or distraught that billions of people will spend a helpless eternity in a Devil's Hell.

This does NOT bother you, and does not make you "sad".

I am correct in this?

You are not at all bothered, saddened, emotionally distraught, nor worried that countless millions are going to hell. That's your position then.
You don't care. I assume you will answer with:
"Yes, I do not care, and am not at all bothered that billions will go to hell, but I rejoice in it"....

Can you affirm that??

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1.) I didn't ask you to answer "Steaver"....I wanted you to answer ME!
2.) So, then, I now have your official position that the Billions of lost persons who will spend an eternity in Hell does NOT, I repeat, NOT make Icon, "Sad"...


So, then, it is the officially recognized position of Iconoclast that you are not one whit "saddened" or distraught that billions of people will spend a helpless eternity in a Devil's Hell.

This does NOT bother you, and does not make you "sad".

I am correct in this?

You are not at all bothered, saddened, emotionally distraught, nor worried that countless millions are going to hell. That's your position then.
You don't care. I assume you will answer with:
"Yes, I do not care, and am not at all bothered that billions will go to hell, but I rejoice in it"....

Can you affirm that??

And why should he care...its tween God and the sinner.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is true. This isn't necessarily a problem--conceptualizing the process of salvation differently.

The big problem, the inflammatory problem, comes when persons misstate their opponent's position (Strawman) and will not be teachable or correctable about it.

Can this thread help, by way of explanation, to tear down the Strawmen? Yes, it can. Will it? That's the question....

Blessings,

The Archangel

While what you list as the big problem is true, defining doctrines like election differently is also a problem in debate unless the debate is relagated to election alone. Should we endeavor to debate other doctrines that are weighted by election but do not define election the same then such debates are most likely going to lead to inflammatory misrepresentations because of the differing views of election. Many of the misrepresentations are not in fact strawmen but based on a view of the others position that is incorrect because differing views of the same doctrine like election.

 

[steaver]

Icon....back up your Theology...

This question is SOOO simple.

Why does God's perfect, just, holy will make you "sad"?

Did YOU say it made you "Sad"?

Why does it make you "Sad"?

Why does God's perfectly holy just decree make you "Sad"?
Just answer the question.

Excellent observations IJ :thumbsup:

The direct end result of embracing Calvinism is that one must suppress their love, their emotions, and convince themselves that their loved ones "deserve what they get". An apathy must be developed, one must convince themselves that it is a "good thing" that loved ones get destroyed and tortured for this brings glory to God. I believe this theology grieves the Holy Spirit. It goes against the natural God given emotion to Love thy Neighbor as Thy Self.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Excellent observations IJ :thumbsup:

The direct end result of embracing Calvinism is that one must suppress their love, their emotions, and convince themselves that their loved ones "deserve what they get". An apathy must be developed, one must convince themselves that it is a "good thing" that loved ones get destroyed and tortured for this brings glory to God. I believe this theology grieves the Holy Spirit. It goes against the natural God given emotion to Love thy Neighbor as Thy Self.

Yet you wont go into a bar to communicate Christ to those in places you label as inappropriate.....your judgemental when it is a place and a people you detest. Get off your high horse and start living your Christianity.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The direct end result of embracing Calvinism is that one must suppress their love, their emotions, and convince themselves that their loved ones "deserve what they get". An apathy must be developed, one must convince themselves that it is a "good thing" that loved ones get destroyed and tortured for this brings glory to God. I believe this theology grieves the Holy Spirit. It goes against the natural God given emotion to Love thy Neighbor as Thy Self.

you're a bald faced liar to think you know what all Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace desire for those they love.

furthermore, you are an imbecile.
Love thy neighbor as thyself is not a God given emotion.
It is a command to fallen beings whose history is full of hatred for neighbors. witness how many wars since history started being written.
and witness your hatred for those who hold an opposite view to yours.
hypocrite !

 

[Iconoclast]

you're a bald faced liar to think you know what all Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace desire for those they love.

furthermore, you are an imbecile.
Love thy neighbor as thyself is not a God given emotion.
It is a command to fallen beings whose history is full of hatred for neighbors. witness how many wars since history started being written.
and witness your hatred for those who hold an opposite view to yours.
hypocrite !

Yes..it is a hatred....

 

[Iconoclast]

[QUOTE=Inspector Javert;21224

Can you affirm that??
what I can affirm is team anti Cal jihad cannot accept the response s given so no they need to twist what is said. .....to come out like they want.

your bitterness towards God and His righteous judgement reminds me of JOBS wife.......curse God and die.....then JOBS response....blessed be the name of the Lord.

 

[steaver]

Yet you wont go into a bar to communicate Christ to those in places you label as inappropriate.....your judgemental when it is a place and a people you detest. Get off your high horse and start living your Christianity.

Oh, I didn't see you watching what I do, your not all seeing are you? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[steaver]

you're a bald faced liar to think you know what all Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace desire for those they love.

furthermore, you are an imbecile.
Love thy neighbor as thyself is not a God given emotion.
It is a command to fallen beings whose history is full of hatred for neighbors. witness how many wars since history started being written.
and witness your hatred for those who hold an opposite view to yours.
hypocrite !

The Spirit of the Law was created in all men (Romans1) and it is man who suppresses this emotion through choosing to rebel against what they know is truth. They "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Ro1:18) "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

The command was from the beginning, before Cain slew Abel, sin afforded a choice in man, man was and is obligated to choose right.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes..it is a hatred....

Not personal hatred though... its hatred of Doctrines of Grace. So the plan of attack is to discredit DOG as invalid, immoral and void of emotion. Good luck with that....but the arguement doesn't stand up in the light of the gospel. But still they try. Steve has been pushing that agenda for quite a while though.....now here is the thing though, I don't see him displaying his Christianity! And that is what I find soooo sad. See I don't need some Ajax screaming at me that I'm doing the wrong thing when I'm in a bar eating and drinking with sinners cause my eye is always looking for those broken and in need of the lord, and I don't need the guy telling me I'm not correct in my doctrine when I'm pulling people outa some hole they got themselves into.....what I need is guys who get it....who touch the flesh of the downtrodden and recognize Christ in that poor unfortunate....I need guys that see and protect and cherish life on this side of life who lend a hand ....not someone worried who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. Let God sort that out .... my consern is right here right now.

 

[steaver]

Yes..it is a hatred....

This is very telling. Anytime a brother disagrees with you and post the truth about the final conclusions of TULIP, your only response becomes "hater". What I said was the only conclusion possible concerning TULIP. IJ has you between a rock and a hard place, either you are sad or you rejoice in the eternal punishment of your lost loved ones, which is it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thats a good read right thar.....that Job guy.....he blesses God in both good times and in bad. He isn't taking Gods authority from him...he is accepting God as his Supreme Being who is totally sovereign. Cool!:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Not personal hatred though... its hatred of Doctrines of Grace. So the plan of attack is to discredit DOG as invalid, immoral and void of emotion. Good luck with that....but the arguement doesn't stand up in the light of the gospel.

Just to make clear for our viewers who listen in, I support all doctrines of Grace, those actually found in the Scriptures, and not TULIP's doctrines of Grace. It sounds great when Calvinist speak about doctrines of Grace, but we must distinguish which versions are being viewed.

But still they try. Steve has been pushing that agenda for quite a while though.....now here is the thing though, I don't see him displaying his Christianity! And that is what I find soooo sad.

My fellow brother and judge. I did not know you could see me nor all the Lord has me involved in.

See I don't need some Ajax screaming at me that I'm doing the wrong thing when I'm in a bar eating and drinking with sinners cause my eye is always looking for those broken and in need of the lord, and I don't need the guy telling me I'm not correct in my doctrine when I'm pulling people outa some hole they got themselves into.....what I need is guys who get it....who touch the flesh of the downtrodden and recognize Christ in that poor unfortunate....I need guys that see and protect and cherish life on this side of life who lend a hand ....not someone worried who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. Let God sort that out .... my consern is right here right now

May the Lord bless you in the works He has ordained for you to walk in. I'm pretty sure He has differing works for each of His children though many may be also the same :love2:

 

[steaver]

Thats a good read right thar.....that Job guy.....he blesses God in both good times and in bad. He isn't taking Gods authority from him...he is accepting God as his Supreme Being who is totally sovereign. Cool!:thumbs:

Amen! :thumbsup:

I don't see anywhere in Job addressing the eternal destination of any of his children. He probably assumed they would be resurrected to eternal life one day. Not sure Job adds anything to this debate, both Cals and Non believe in the Sovereign Right and Power of God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The Spirit of the Law was created in all men (Romans1) and it is man who suppresses this emotion through choosing to rebel against what they know is truth. They "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Ro1:18) "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

The command was from the beginning, before Cain slew Abel, sin afforded a choice in man, man was and is obligated to choose right.

That is because all men are fallen.
you, I, Calvinists, pagans, atheists.
If there were no Spirit of God dwelling in us then we would not know what love is.
you do not glorify God.
you accuse Calvinists of being unable to come to grips with what you call the logical conclusion of their beliefs and doctrines, but you dodge what is obvious that I stated about the logical conclusion of your beliefs.
that instead of glorifying Him and thanking Him for your soul and your totally undeserved salvation you imply you will turn around and question Him why He did not also save your kin.
That is rebellion, impertinence, and a lifting up of your love over God's.
Repent.
Then you go on accusing others of being callous, insensitive, and prideful.
you're an imbecile.

 

[steaver]

That is because all men are fallen.
you, I, Calvinists, pagans, atheists.
If there were no Spirit of God dwelling in us then we would not know what love is.
you do not glorify God.
you accuse Calvinists of being unable to come to grips with what you call the logical conclusion of their beliefs and doctrines, but you dodge what is obvious that I stated about the logical conclusion of your beliefs.
that instead of glorifying Him and thanking Him for your soul and your totally undeserved salvation you imply you will turn around and question Him why He did not also save your kin.
That is rebellion, impertinence, and a lifting up of your love over God's.
Repent.
Then you go on accusing others of being callous, insensitive, and prideful.
you're an imbecile.

I never implied such, nor believe such, nor will do such. From my pov if my loved ones do not get saved it will not be because God refused to save them, it will be because they refused to have Jesus Christ Lord over them when offered eternal life. Secondly, ALL salvation is undeserved, not of yourself, lest anyone should boast, it is ALL of God. God has made the way possible through the accepted sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ to whosoever will believe. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not our's only, but the sins of the whole world. I thank God everyday for my undeserved salvation, accepting a gift is not a merit of work, it is nothing but submission to what is revealed as Truth. One can choose to submit, or one can choose to rebel and refuse. No blame is assigned to God for as He said, "what else could I have done?"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I never implied such, nor believe such, nor will do such. From my pov if my loved ones do not get saved it will not be because God refused to save them, it will be because they refused to have Jesus Christ Lord over them when offered eternal life. Secondly, ALL salvation is undeserved, not of yourself, lest anyone should boast, it is ALL of God. God has made the way possible through the accepted sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ to whosoever will believe. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not our's only, but the sins of the whole world. I thank God everyday for my undeserved salvation, accepting a gift is not a merit of work, it is nothing but submission to what is revealed as Truth. One can choose to submit, or one can choose to rebel and refuse. No blame is assigned to God for as He said, "what else could I have done?"

Steve....nobody goes to the Lord without first being regenerated by the lord to do so.....so in my pov and Penoys you would really have to be a true imbecile to reject God......so if your kid, my kid and Pinoys kid rejects Him, then what do you expect the true believer in Christ to do....wallow in the fact that people reject Christ? Thats rediculious....rather we believe they would never accept him....never ever....so why go through the bother of agnosing over someone who is a infidel from before the foundations of the world?

 

[steaver]

Steve....nobody goes to the Lord without first being regenerated by the lord to do so.....

This is one of many doctrines that must be believed so that TULIP may stand, however, the scripture is overwhelmingly clear that regeneration is an act of God upon a calling upon the Lord to be saved/born-again (John1, Romans 10). Also, scripture is very clear that regeneration was not implemented until after the glorification of Jesus Christ (John 7). The Calvinist must ignore these text or reinterpret them in some way so they can presume regeneration occurs before the cross and before a request from the person to be saved. Also many scriptures declare all of mankind knows some revealed truth (Romans 1) but many have chosen to suppress it and ignore it to satisfy their sinful side.

so in my pov and Penoys you would really have to be a true imbecile to reject God......

It's not a matter of stupidity, but it sure seems that way from this side of regeneration. Many come eagerly and shout "yes" give me a clean heart oh Lord! Others struggle with the thought of turning control over to Jesus Christ, knowing their life will be changed forever. Yes, it may seem like a no brainer to believe, but their is a cost to consider in following Jesus Christ. This is where "easy believism" has caused great damage to the gospel message. Choosing to follow Jesus Christ and asking Him to recreate you can be a scary thought if the love of your sin has a grip on you and you are enjoying yourself in sin. You see, until one is actually regenerated, one is not certain just what becoming born-again will be like, and one is not perfectly sure there is really anything different in being a Christian than following any of the other hundreds of religions in the world. Once on the other side, when that truth becomes reality, then it appears everyone who rejects Jesus Christ is being stupid. It's that limbo stage one gets in while contemplating receiving the Lord as Lord and Saviour, once one has crossed over and experiences Christ in you, then they rush out and want all their friends and family to experience the same, and they find it just stupid that they would not want what they are telling them they have discovered is a reality.

.....so if your kid, my kid and Pinoys kid rejects Him, then what do you expect the true believer in Christ to do....wallow in the fact that people reject Christ? Thats rediculious....rather we believe they would never accept him....never ever....so why go through the bother of agnosing over someone who is a infidel from before the foundations of the world?

Again, since this premise is in error, you would come to this conclusion. However, the agonizing comes because the truth is they have a choice and one agonizes that they will not make the same choice you did. So we pray for God to be constantly placing the Holy Spirit in their paths, giving them every opportunity to turn from their sin and choose Jesus.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is one of many doctrines that must be believed so that TULIP may stand, however, the scripture is overwhelmingly clear that regeneration is an act of God upon a calling upon the Lord to be saved/born-again (John1, Romans 10). Also, scripture is very clear that regeneration was not implemented until after the glorification of Jesus Christ (John 7). The Calvinist must ignore these text or reinterpret them in some way so they can presume regeneration occurs before the cross and before a request from the person to be saved. Also many scriptures declare all of mankind knows some revealed truth (Romans 1) but many have chosen to suppress it and ignore it to satisfy their sinful side.

It's not a matter of stupidity, but it sure seems that way from this side of regeneration. Many come eagerly and shout "yes" give me a clean heart oh Lord! Others struggle with the thought of turning control over to Jesus Christ, knowing their life will be changed forever. Yes, it may seem like a no brainer to believe, but their is a cost to consider in following Jesus Christ. This is where "easy believism" has caused great damage to the gospel message. Choosing to follow Jesus Christ and asking Him to recreate you can be a scary thought if the love of your sin has a grip on you and you are enjoying yourself in sin. You see, until one is actually regenerated, one is not certain just what becoming born-again will be like, and one is not perfectly sure there is really anything different in being a Christian than following any of the other hundreds of religions in the world. Once on the other side, when that truth becomes reality, then it appears everyone who rejects Jesus Christ is being stupid. It's that limbo stage one gets in while contemplating receiving the Lord as Lord and Saviour, once one has crossed over and experiences Christ in you, then they rush out and want all their friends and family to experience the same, and they find it just stupid that they would not want what they are telling them they have discovered is a reality.

Again, since this premise is in error, you would come to this conclusion. However, the agonizing comes because the truth is they have a choice and one agonizes that they will not make the same choice you did. So we pray for God to be constantly placing the Holy Spirit in their paths, giving them every opportunity to turn from their sin and choose Jesus.

You go and believe what you want to believe....I haven't a problem with that....but shut up about what I believe. By criticizing and attempting to discredit what I believe, you are just making yourself look arrogant. Is that what you want to project yourself as? Because guaranteed, anybody (especially a Calvinist) will just shut you down mentally and then ignore you. I know you sincerely believe you are right but that certitude you carry around with you and project in every one of your posts doesn't get it done and probably alienates you.