So Sad

[steaver]

I would like to know how the Calvinist deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their belief of TULIP's Election process?

When I ponder such a position, if I were to entertain having such a thought, immediately I sense depression and sadness.

What does the Calvinist feel as they think about God passing by their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children? When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God chose to passed them by in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved? All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone.

How do you deal with that? Does God want you to experience such turmoil as a Christian? If you search your hearts, do you really feel the weight of TULIP's positions? Is God really a God that would pass by your loved one by choice, with no regards of how that impacts your own spirit?

How will you cope with eternity, knowing your little girl or little boy, or your sister or brother, mother or father, was spending eternity in hell, not because they by their own free will rejected God, but knowing it is because God chose to let them suffer, and you have to live eternally knowing they still exist, but are suffering everyday you live in joy and splendor.

I personally, knowing they had a choice, will feel sorrow for them. But to know God just abandoned them without hope, if that be true, how will I spend eternal life in joy?

Just some thoughts.......

 

[Reformed]

I would like to know how the Calvinist deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their belief of TULIP's Election process?

You may have to keep wondering for a long time. I have experienced no depression when I contemplate divine election. In fact I experience a joy that words cannot adequately express. The knowledge that the Father called me by name to inherit eternal life is more than humbling. I did nothing to merit my salvation, ergo I can do nothing to keep it. It is all of God. I rejoice that God has entrusted to jars of clay, like me, the privilege to proclaim the message of forgiveness of sins. To him belongs all the glory, now and forevermore. Amen.

 

[SolaSaint]

I would feel real depressed if it was up to me to choose Christ. I praise Him for choosing me. Thank You LORD. No depression here. Also if we don't know who the elect are then we should share Christ with everyone and trust God with the results. Maybe God decreed to use you in bringing your relatives to Him. If they reject Christ who are you going to blame? God?

 

[Revmitchell]

I would like to know how the Calvinist deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their belief of TULIP's Election process?

When I ponder such a position, if I were to entertain having such a thought, immediately I sense depression and sadness.

What does the Calvinist feel as they think about God passing by their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children? When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God chose to passed them by in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved? All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone.

How do you deal with that? Does God want you to experience such turmoil as a Christian? If you search your hearts, do you really feel the weight of TULIP's positions? Is God really a God that would pass by your loved one by choice, with no regards of how that impacts your own spirit?

How will you cope with eternity, knowing your little girl or little boy, or your sister or brother, mother or father, was spending eternity in hell, not because they by their own free will rejected God, but knowing it is because God chose to let them suffer, and you have to live eternally knowing they still exist, but are suffering everyday you live in joy and splendor.

I personally, knowing they had a choice, will feel sorrow for them. But to know God just abandoned them without hope, if that be true, how will I spend eternal life in joy?

Just some thoughts.......

This thread is nothing but inlfammatory and unnecessary. That is what is sad.

 

[Sapper Woody]

I would feel real depressed if it was up to me to choose Christ. I praise Him for choosing me. Thank You LORD. No depression here. Also if we don't know who the elect are then we should share Christ with everyone and trust God with the results. Maybe God decreed to use you in bringing your relatives to Him. If they reject Christ who are you going to blame? God?

See, in my mind this is contradictory. That's what I don't get. I'm trying to understand the Cal viewpoint, but I just don't get it. Yes, if God wouldn't save someone, I'd blame God.

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

I have some time so I will respond Steaver....

I would like to know how the Calvinist deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their belief of TULIP's Election process?

I rejoice in God's eternal purpose ...knowing that the God of all the earth will do right......Do you not believe God will do right Steaver?

When I ponder such a position, if I were to entertain having such a thought, immediately I sense depression and sadness

.

Perhaps if you do not have confidence In the promises offered to the sheep.

What does the Calvinist feel as they think about God passing by their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children?

Neither you or I know who God has elected or passed by. That is God's concern.
If God in His wisdom has passed by all you list....Would that be alright with you?
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God chose to passed them by in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved?

Their are many promises made to believing families...these are not guarantees however...ask Esau. If God in His wisdom decided to do that just...would that be okay with you?

All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone.

Sorry to see this unbelief in the means God has ordained, prayer and faithful obedience...no wonder you get depressed:thumbsup: Our prayer is us agreeing with God...we do not pray...to move God to "change" as he is immutable:wavey:

How do you deal with that? Does God want you to experience such turmoil as a Christian?

We are to be sober minded and do all we can as God has told us to...like the HYMN trust and obey.

If you search your hearts, do you really feel the weight of TULIP's positions? Is God really a God that would pass by your loved one by choice, with no regards of how that impacts your own spirit?

Again...it seems like you do not trust God believing the truth of God makes you decide that God will not save those around you?

How will you cope with eternity, knowing your little girl or little boy, or your sister or brother, mother or father, was spending eternity in hell,

Any in hell will be there justly....do you think God will not be a righteous judge?

not because they by their own free will rejected God,

no....because free will does not exist...self will does and it is bound by sin, if they perish it will be because they love sin.

but knowing it is because God chose to let them suffer,

can you show where you get this idea in scripture? I see where men reap what they sow....

and you have to live eternally knowing they still exist, but are suffering everyday you live in joy and splendor.

we will know exactly why people perish and actually rejoice like the saints in revelation 19;
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
the sing and understand God's righteous judgement...Do you believe this Steaver...or is this another portion of scripture you would ignore?

I personally, knowing they had a choice, will feel sorrow for them. But to know God just abandoned them without hope, if that be true, how will I spend eternal life in joy?

Why such an evil view of God Steaver....God has to save everyone for you to be happy about Him????

Just some thoughts......

More like a plea for help...

 

[Iconoclast]

See, in my mind this is contradictory. That's what I don't get. I'm trying to understand the Cal viewpoint, but I just don't get it. Yes, if God wouldn't save someone, I'd blame God.

SW,

So if God does not save everyone.....you would blame Him???
Why does God have to save anyone? Do we deserve it?
SW that it is why it is mercy and grace:type:

 

[Iconoclast]

You may have to keep wondering for a long time. I have experienced no depression when I contemplate divine election. In fact I experience a joy that words cannot adequately express. The knowledge that the Father called me by name to inherit eternal life is more than humbling. I did nothing to merit my salvation, ergo I can do nothing to keep it. It is all of God. I rejoice that God has entrusted to jars of clay, like me, the privilege to proclaim the message of forgiveness of sins. To him belongs all the glory, now and forevermore. Amen.

SolaSaint I would feel real depressed if it was up to me to choose Christ. I praise Him for choosing me. Thank You LORD. No depression here. Also if we don't know who the elect are then we should share Christ with everyone and trust God with the results. Maybe God decreed to use you in bringing your relatives to Him. If they reject Christ who are you going to blame? God

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: I could not pray or face another day if God was not indeed on the Throne in complete control.

 

[RLBosley]

I would like to know how the Arminian deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their repudiation of divine election?

When I ponder such a position, if I were to entertain having such a thought, immediately I sense depression and sadness.

What does the Arminian feel as they think about God passively waiting around for their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children to make a decision for him? When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God couldn't save them in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved? All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone since the cross only made men redeemable not redeemed, and it's all on the creature not the creator.

How do you deal with that? Does God want you to experience such turmoil as a Christian? If you search your hearts, do you really feel the weight of the Arminain positions? Is God really a God that would passively stand by, watching your loved one go to hell by their choice, with no regards of how that impacts your own spirit?

How will you cope with eternity, knowing your little girl or little boy, or your sister or brother, mother or father, was spending eternity in hell, not only because they in their sin enslaved rebellion rejected God, but knowing it is because you didn't do enough, you didn't talk to them enough about Jesus and you have to live eternally knowing they still exist, but are suffering everyday you live in joy and splendor, all because you failed as a witness.

I personally, while sad about their fate, know that the judge of all the Earth will do right. But to know God just abandoned them because he was powerless to save them without their making the first effort, if that be true, how will I spend eternal life in joy?

Just some thoughts.......

FTFY.

See, we can make stupid, nonsensical, emotional posts against your position too.

So now, with the emotional drivel out of the way, maybe we can get to scripture?

 

[Iconoclast]

This thread is nothing but inlfammatory and unnecessary. That is what is sad.

Most likely true.....but if one person struggles with this there are many more who speculate about such things.
I think all Christians have to have an answer for these kind of questions.

If it was in anyway a sincere question the scripture speaks to it...

Godly Presbyterians view God's promises to families and Covenant homes with a positive outlook and part of God's design. I think we can learn much from them even with our differences .

 

[Sapper Woody]

SW,

So if God does not save everyone.....you would blame Him???
Why does God have to save anyone? Do we deserve it?
SW that it is why it is mercy and grace:type:

If I knew that God refused to save my family, then yes, I would blame Him. I honestly don't understand how a Cal can say that a person who goes to hell deserve it, when God sent them there without a chance. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I honestly don't understand the Cal beliefs.

 

[convicted1]

I would like to know how the Calvinist deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their belief of TULIP's Election process?

No depression here. :thumbs: I rejoice in the fact that I was running away from Him when He sought me out. I had no desire to serve Him, yet, He changed that thisquick

When I ponder such a position, if I were to entertain having such a thought, immediately I sense depression and sadness.

You're depressed? Why? God chose you, and not vice versa.

What does the Calvinist feel as they think about God passing by their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children? When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God chose to passed them by in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved? All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone.

God has every right to do with us as He wills. Who are we to reply or even ask Him one question? He shall do right all the time.

How do you deal with that? Does God want you to experience such turmoil as a Christian? If you search your hearts, do you really feel the weight of TULIP's positions? Is God really a God that would pass by your loved one by choice, with no regards of how that impacts your own spirit?

God had every right....before He covenanted with His Son, to pass by me, too. He had every right to not even send Jesus, yet, when He did, He entered into an everlasting covenant, and we, by His choice, and not ours, were chosen from before the foundation of the world.

How will you cope with eternity, knowing your little girl or little boy, or your sister or brother, mother or father, was spending eternity in hell, not because they by their own free will rejected God, but knowing it is because God chose to let them suffer, and you have to live eternally knowing they still exist, but are suffering everyday you live in joy and splendor.

We will never know those who are being tormented. He will wipe away all our tears.

I personally, knowing they had a choice, will feel sorrow for them. But to know God just abandoned them without hope, if that be true, how will I spend eternal life in joy?

If they truly had a choice to cleave or forsake God, none of them would be saved. Free will is the only thing that keeps lost people from coming to Christ. They freely choose to reject Him every time.

Just some thoughts.......

sad thoughts, indeed...

 

[Iconoclast]

Quote:
Originally Posted by steaver View Post
I would like to know how the Arminian deals with the depression that must set in when they realize the implications of their repudiation of divine election?

When I ponder such a position, if I were to entertain having such a thought, immediately I sense depression and sadness.

What does the Arminian feel as they think about God passively waiting around for their mothers and fathers, their spouses, their friends, their children to make a decision for him? When you think about your little girl, or little boy, spending eternity in hell because God couldn't save them in spite of any of your pleas to them or to God to be saved? All the while knowing your pleas have nothing to do with moving God to save anyone since the cross only made men redeemable not redeemed, and it's all on the creature not the creator.

How do you deal with that? Does God want you to experience such turmoil as a Christian? If you search your hearts, do you really feel the weight of the Arminain positions? Is God really a God that would passively stand by, watching your loved one go to hell by their choice, with no regards of how that impacts your own spirit?

How will you cope with eternity, knowing your little girl or little boy, or your sister or brother, mother or father, was spending eternity in hell, not only because they in their sin enslaved rebellion rejected God, but knowing it is because you didn't do enough, you didn't talk to them enough about Jesus and you have to live eternally knowing they still exist, but are suffering everyday you live in joy and splendor, all because you failed as a witness.

I personally, while sad about their fate, know that the judge of all the Earth will do right. But to know God just abandoned them because he was powerless to save them without their making the first effort, if that be true, how will I spend eternal life in joy?

Just some thoughts.......

FTFY.

See, we can make stupid, nonsensical, emotional posts against your position too.

So now, with the emotional drivel out of the way, maybe we can get to scripture?
__________________

lol....you held up a mirror for him!

 

[convicted1]

This thread is nothing but inlfammatory and unnecessary. That is what is sad.

I disagree. This thread will hopefully clear the air about what we see biblical election truly entails. I said "hopefully".....

 

[RLBosley]

I disagree. This thread will hopefully clear the air about what we see biblical election truly entails. I said "hopefully".....

Good luck. I, sadly, agree with Rev, this has no other purpose than to inflame and disparage Calvinists. I would be shocked to find an ounce of sincerity in the OP.

 

[convicted1]

If I knew that God refused to save my family, then yes, I would blame Him. I honestly don't understand how a Cal can say that a person who goes to hell deserve it, when God sent them there without a chance. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I honestly don't understand the Cal beliefs.

If you have a faulty view of the fall....not saying you do, but....it skews your whole theological system. Adam fell, and we being in Adam, fell too. God had every right to cast us into eternal torment and not send Jesus to save any. Yet, He entered into an everlasting covenant with His Son to redeem a remnant, a # so large that no man can ever # it. We deserved that torment as much as the next man, yet God chose us before the foundation of the world, enscribed our name in the Lamb's Book of Life, and made all the means so that we would not be eternally tormented.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sapper Woody

Hello SW

If I knew that God refused to save my family, then yes, I would blame Him.

I think that if viewed from raw emotion people would have a thought like this.
SW.....Do you believe in God's attributes .....not that you have not heard of them...but do you trust that God will do right? Do you believe God is only good, only Holy,.....How can you "blame God" or charge Him...for any reason?

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

That is why Paul wrote this portion of scripture.

I honestly don't understand how a Cal can say that a person who goes to hell deserve it,

because they love sin

when God sent them there without a chance.

They go as a result of the fall and a life full of sin.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I honestly don't understand the Cal beliefs.

SW....if scripture does not contradict itself....trust in God's immutable purpose.
See how God reveals Himself first...His attributes....then let the verses be understood in light of the clear verses on Who God is, and How he moves
SW....read all of psalm 119...can you agree with the psalmist?
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments

15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways

75 I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.

 

[Iconoclast]

No depression here. :thumbs: I rejoice in the fact that I was running away from Him when He sought me out. I had no desire to serve Him, yet, He changed that thisquick



You're depressed? Why? God chose you, and not vice versa.



God has every right to do with us as He wills. Who are we to reply or even ask Him one question? He shall do right all the time.



God had every right....before He covenanted with His Son, to pass by me, too. He had every right to not even send Jesus, yet, when He did, He entered into an everlasting covenant, and we, by His choice, and not ours, were chosen from before the foundation of the world.



We will never know those who are being tormented. He will wipe away all our tears.



If they truly had a choice to cleave or forsake God, none of them would be saved. Free will is the only thing that keeps lost people from coming to Christ. They freely choose to reject Him every time.




sad thoughts, indeed...

Good helpful post Con 1

 

[convicted1]

If I knew that God refused to save my family, then yes, I would blame Him. I honestly don't understand how a Cal can say that a person who goes to hell deserve it, when God sent them there without a chance. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I honestly don't understand the Cal beliefs.

Did Abram get miffed at God when He chose him to be the father of many nations and leave his family and go to a land that he had never been to before?


Did Job shake his fist at God when Satan sent all the calamity his way, by taking his possession and then his children?


Did Moses turn his back on God when He chose him to bring Israel out from Egypt's bondage? Remember, Moses lived with the Egyptians for 40 years, so he had some loved ones there that no doubt were destroyed.


After David's and Bathsheba's died, after he laid in the street for, I think, seven days, did he blame God for taking him from him?



God does what is right, and not what He "sees" is right. He's right 100% of the time. We have to trust and rest in this....

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree. This thread will hopefully clear the air about what we see biblical election truly entails. I said "hopefully".....

Not possible. Cals define election differently than noncals, because of this everyone just talks past one another.