So why do you American Baptists hate Obama so much?

[rbell]

Many Americans who are Baptist, especially SBC'ers did not support Obama and many of these folk do seem to hate Obama. But you must remember what the S stands for in SBC. This feeling of S is gradually becoming a smaller s as the older generation dies off and the younger generation matures. The old racial prejudices are not nearly as strong in the young as in the elderly. Sadly such prejudice is still alive in some preachers. I had a SBC preacher, who lives in Atlanta, a middle aged fellow, tell me last year that he would never ride the subway in Atlanta because too many African Americans [he did not use this term] ride the subway. I had ridden the Atlanta subway and found it a great way to get around and from and to the airport.

There is an interesting breakdown of who voted for and against Obama at: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...+breakdown+religious&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

So...people in the SBC oppose Obama because they are racist?

You will respond, "that's not what I'm saying."

So I will go ahead and say, "then why did you say it this way?" Isn't it possible for us to vigorously oppose someone because we see them as pro-abortion, anti-liberty, pro-big government, anti-individual, and anti-success?

Tell me...a lifelong SBC'er...what in the world does that have to do with race?

 

[Crabtownboy]

So...people in the SBC oppose Obama because they are racist?

You will respond, "that's not what I'm saying."

So I will go ahead and say, "then why did you say it this way?" Isn't it possible for us to vigorously oppose someone because we see them as pro-abortion, anti-liberty, pro-big government, anti-individual, and anti-success?

Tell me...a lifelong SBC'er...what in the world does that have to do with race?

Yes, it is possible for a person to be against Obama because of abortion, big government or any of a whole host of issues. No question about that. Not all in the SBC are racist, some are. Not all Americans of any religious group are racist, but some are.

However, I grew up in the South. I remember well what the older generation, and the now elderly generation said or felt about race ... not all of course, but the majority. For all too many of these folk their feeling has not really changed. They are not as vocal now, but it is not hard to discover prejudice if you listen carefully or read carefully.

Race was one factor. One or many factors can go into making up the reason a person votes for or against a candidate. The Iraq war, the economy, immigration, etc. all were factors for various groups of people.

I know what the preacher from Atlanta said to me. I also know what several SBC missionaries said to me about Obama. Race was definitely a factor for them, and I do not see why they would not be somewhat representative of SBC'ers in general.

Let's fact it, if you grew up in the South, as I did, you know the SBC was on the wong side of race from pre-civil war times days of the civil rights march days.

The OP asks whay Americans who are Baptists do not like Obama. Race is one factor for many Southerners, and for some from other parts of the country. We might as well face that face. I think it is very un-Christian, but it is there.

Each of us will have to account for both our actions and our love or lack of love for others to God at the judgement.

 

[Revmitchell]

Libbies like to use the race card. They think it gives them power. But the truth is it gets more pathetic every time it is used. Like in this thread.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Libbies like to use the race card. They think it gives them power. But the truth is it gets more pathetic every time it is used. Like in this thread.

Are you suggesting that you like to hide the race card ... even when it is there?

The OP ask why some Americans hate Obama, race is one reason for some, abortion is for others, there are numerous reasons Race is also the reason some voted for him. Some felt he was the best candidate, some did not.

 

[EdSutton]

Look don't you be presuming what to tell me. Your (sic) the one that does not follow the whole council (sic) of God, rather preferring a feel good attitude to the truth.

A mite judgmental here, don't you think? And I might suggest a bit hypocritical, as well, when speaking following of the "the whole counsel of God" I would say.

If I recall, several posters have mentioned what Jesus said about loving one's enemies, which I believe you have not addressed, except to say you are not 'discarding' the OT, here, unlike some, which is judgmental in itself.

Can you cite even one verse in either the OT or NT, that ever commands us to hate anyone, on a personal basis? I have not seen such. I will admit that I could have missed one, however, and will be glad to acknowledge such, if I have, if you can show such.

I do find these verses, however, cited in the NKJV.

16 You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.
17 ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. (Lev. 19:16-18)

Incidentally, the emphasized words, here are stated by both Jesus and the 'lawyer' to be one of the two greatest or most
important commandments in the entire law, surpassing even the "Big Ten", and Jesus said this is one of the 'two pegs' on which "hang all the law and the prophets" (including the Ten Commandments), meaning the entire OT. (Mt. 22:39-40)

24 He who hates, disguises it with his lips,
And lays up deceit within himself;
25 When he speaks kindly, do not believe him,
For there are seven abominations in his heart;
26 Though his hatred is covered by deceit,
His wickedness will be revealed before the assembly. (Prov. 26:24-26)

The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Lev. 19:18, c.f. Deut. 10:19)


43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[b] (Mt. 5:43-44) (Did you note that the "hate your enemy" bit is not in italics, here, while the "love your neighbor" part IS italicized? That means the non-italicized part is not found in any OT scripture, FTR.)

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (Rom. 13:8-10)

There are several other passages I could quote, including I Cor. 13, but these should show enough, IMO.

I also note that You have pronounced President Barak Obama to be an unsaved individual, as well, despite his own statements, and implied that other individuals are unsaved, as well. I also note that apparently you do not believe that Eph. 2:8-10 or faith alone, is enough for salvation, as well, and implied that those who believe this are also lacking in their understanding.

Frankly, I'm only glad that when my name is called before the throne, you will not be the one holding the Lamb's Book of Life, for I fear, that if that were true, my own name would have long since been blotted out, by you, since I did not meet your own unstated 'requirements' for salvation. And I'm also fairly sure the Phillipian jailer, David, Abraham, Lot, Rahab, and a host of the other Biblical saints' names would not be found there, either.

Unfortunately! :tear:

I can assure you that I hold no enmity, hatred or dislike for you in any personal manner, whatsoever. (I do however, 'hate' some of the things you are saying, here.) However, I simply believe you need to spend some more time in prayer over this (considering you are the one who brought up prayer) and study your Bible some more on the subjects you have raised, my brother.

Ed

 

[rbell]

The OP asks whay Americans who are Baptists do not like Obama. Race is one factor for many Southerners, and for some from other parts of the country. We might as well face that face. I think it is very un-Christian, but it is there.

Each of us will have to account for both our actions and our love or lack of love for others to God at the judgement.

And of course, most baptists didn't like Bill Clinton or Al Gore because they hate white people.



IMO, the charges of racism are used by many to make themselves feel more superior..."enlightened." It also allows them to dismiss out-of-hand some very valid criticisms of our president. Does CTB adhere to this? I doubt you do...but this is why you get this response from me...because I've been called "racist" more than once because I disagree with the fascist tendencies of this President, and with many of his views, which are patently unbiblical.

 

[Matt Black]

How many people did you stone last Saturday because you saw them working?

Or wearing mixed-fibre shirts?

 

[EdSutton]

What is in the OT is just as valid as the NT, unless of course you would like to say God changed His mind.

How many people did you stone last Saturday because you saw them working?

Great question!

Ed

 

[tinytim]

Yes, it is possible for a person to be against Obama because of abortion, big government or any of a whole host of issues. No question about that. Not all in the SBC are racist, some are. Not all Americans of any religious group are racist, but some are.

However, I grew up in the South. I remember well what the older generation, and the now elderly generation said or felt about race ... not all of course, but the majority. For all too many of these folk their feeling has not really changed. They are not as vocal now, but it is not hard to discover prejudice if you listen carefully or read carefully.

Race was one factor. One or many factors can go into making up the reason a person votes for or against a candidate. The Iraq war, the economy, immigration, etc. all were factors for various groups of people.

I know what the preacher from Atlanta said to me. I also know what several SBC missionaries said to me about Obama. Race was definitely a factor for them, and I do not see why they would not be somewhat representative of SBC'ers in general.

Let's fact it, if you grew up in the South, as I did, you know the SBC was on the wong side of race from pre-civil war times days of the civil rights march days.

The OP asks whay Americans who are Baptists do not like Obama. Race is one factor for many Southerners, and for some from other parts of the country. We might as well face that face. I think it is very un-Christian, but it is there.

Each of us will have to account for both our actions and our love or lack of love for others to God at the judgement.

You have some valid points.. the very founding of the SBC was based on racist principles.. The SBC split from NBC because of SBC wanting to keep missionaries that owned slaves, and the NBC (Now American Baptist/USA) would not allow it. But that was way over a hundred yrs ago...
And the SBC has changed...

Also the ABC/USA, which I am part of did for the most part support Obama. BUT NOT all.. ME! LOL... Not because he is black, but because of his politics... I can't stand racism, and am fighting a battle here because of the racists in our area that don't like Hispanics. Our association is trying to get an Hispanic ministry off the ground, but the Christians seem lethargic.. and I keep hearing.. "They are illegal".. "they need to speak english"... and stuff like that.. .

Well I don't care if they are illegal.. they need the Lord the same as good ole American white folk!.. I could go off on a rant here.. but I will save it!

So I stand FIRMLY OPPOSED TO RACISM! I also stand FIRMLY OPPOSED TBAMA!... Not him personally.. but his politics..

 

[Martin]

You are wrong

==That is not a reply. It is clear evidence that you are not dealing with the whole counsel of God. You are treating the Bible like a buffet, taking out what you want while ignoring the rest. That, my friend, is wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. You must examine the WHOLE counsel of God.

Our Lord clearly drew a line of distinction between the use of the old covenant the New when He said, "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matt 5:43-44). The statement "you have heard that it was said" refers back to the Old Testament. Jesus then says, "But I say to you". In this statement He is telling us that there has been a change. It is not that the previous was wrong, it is that a new covenant has come and there are some differences. We are not allowed to hate anyone though we clearly should hate all sin (mainly our own).

Matthew 5:43-44 is a clear statement from God Himself on one difference between the old covenant and the new. If you hate your enemy you are in sin because you are in violation of the Word of God. That is not my opinion, that is the Word of God. You can ignore me and others on this forum but you cannot ignore the Word of God. It stands forever.

Edit to change wording in red.

 

[Martin]

I will make no more replies I stand by what I say I hate BO and I am justified by Scripture

==Your hatred of any living human is not justified by Scripture and I think you know that deep down. That is why you are getting so defensive and why you said, "Can't help it, may God forgive me. I hate BO down to my marrow and believe me I have prayed about it". If you knew you were justified by Scripture you would not be saying "may God forgive me". The very fact you think you may need to be forgiven for your hatred shows that there is some level of doubt in your mind. Maybe that doubt is the Holy Spirit warning you that you are going down the wrong road on this point? Ever think about that?

Scripture tells us,

"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." -Romans 12:14-21

Your confessed hatred for another human shows that you believe it is your right to have vengeance. However vengeance is the Lord's. We leave that to Him. We are to love, to witness, and to preach the truth. Hatred for people has no place in the Christian life.

I pray for his Salvation or God's justice to him be done. I will celebrate either way

==I pray for his salvation. Since God does not celebrate the death of the wicked neither will I (Ez 33:11, etc).

 

[Rippon]

All References Are From The TNIV

Can you cite even one verse in either the OT or NT, that ever commands us to hate anyone, on a personal basis? I have not seen such. I will admit that I could have missed one, however, and will be glad to acknowledge such, if I have, if you can show such.

It's not a commandment as such, but David apparently had righteous hatred in Psalm 139:21,22.

Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.

 

[EdSutton]

==That is not a reply. It is clear evidence that you are not dealing with the whole counsel of God. You are treating the Bible like a buffet, taking out what you want while ignoring the rest. That, my friend, is wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. You must examine the WHOLE counsel of God.

Our Lord clearly drew a line of distinction between the Old covenant and the New when He said, "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matt 5:43-44). The statement "you have heard that it was said" refers back to the Old Testament. Jesus then says, "But I say to you". In this statement He is telling us that there has been a change. It is not that the previous was wrong, it is that a new covenant has come and there are some differences. We are not allowed to hate anyone though we clearly should hate all sin (mainly our own).

Matthew 5:43-44 is a clear statement from God Himself on one difference between the old covenant and the new. If you hate your enemy you are in sin because you are in violation of the Word of God. That is not my opinion, that is the Word of God. You can ignore me and others on this forum but you cannot ignore the Word of God. It stands forever.

I believe Jesus was addressing "hearsay" and "tradition" and "misuse" as opposed to all of the 'Old Covenant' by his own words of "You have heard it said that..." The Old Covenant never said one should hate any enemies, as I have just stated above, although it definitely does say "You shall love your neighbor". This tradition was not Biblical, in the first place, which is why Jesus addressed it, in 'expansion' (and not by 'replacement') of what was actually said.

Ed

 

[Martin]

Romans 12:9 Abhor that which is evil.

==Let's provide some context to that quote. Is Paul talking about hating people? No!

"Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good" (Rom 12:9)

He is talking about "what is evil", not those who do what is evil. The Apostle is telling us to hate evil things. That may refer to what a pereson does but not to that person. Look at what Paul goes on to say...

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (Rom 12:21)

In the context of the passage he is talking about our behavior towards our enemies. We are to love our enemies and treat them well (Matt 5:43-44, Rom 12:19-20). There is nothing in there about hating them.

 

[Martin]

I believe Jesus was addressing "hearsay" and "tradition" and "misuse" as opposed to all of the 'Old Covenant' by his own words of "You have heard it said that..." The Old Covenant never said one should hate any enemies, as I have just stated above, although it definitely does say "You shall love your neighbor". This tradition was not Biblical, in the first place, which is why Jesus addressed it, in 'expansion' (and not by 'replacement') of what was actually said.

==Your correct Ed. I stand corrected.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

I don't think this changes my general point though.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Romans 12:9 Abhor that which is evil.

Response by matt wade
Yes...this means to hate the sin. It is not speaking of the sinner.

You are putting your own spin on this statement.

I believe that obama is evil:

1. just as the Nazi who ordered the death of 6 million Jews,
2. just as Stalin who ordered the death of millions in the Soviet Union,
3. just as Mao who ordered the death of millions of Chinese,
4. just as the Kymer Rouge who murdered millions in Cambodia,
5. just as the Japanese in the rape of Nanking,
6. just as the radical Islamists who strap a bomb to some fanatic to kill as many as they can,
7. just as Osama bin Laden.

And regardless of your spin Scripture states: Abhor that which is evil.

 

[Rippon]

==You're correct Ed. I stand corrected.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

You can thank Rip too.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Romans 12:9 Abhor that which is evil

.

Response by Martin
==Let's provide some context to that quote. Is Paul talking about hating people? No!

"Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good" (Rom 12:9)

He is talking about "what is evil", not those who do what is evil. The Apostle is telling us to hate evil things. That may refer to what a person does but not to that person.

Like matt wade you are putting your own spin on this Scripture. Satan, evil, can only work through people. There are evil people in this world. Are we supposed to love these evil people? I think not, and I don't believe that Scripture, correctly interpreted and in context, teaches that.

 

[Crabtownboy]

.


Like matt wade you are putting your own spin on this Scripture. Satan, evil, can only work through people. There are evil people in this world. Are we supposed to love these evil people? I think not, and I don't believe that Scripture, correctly interpreted and in context, teaches that.

What was Christ's teaching concerning others? Was it to hate or love? Did he say to love your enemy or love you enemy? Many of Christ's teachings are very hard to apply in our own lives. But, he taught and we must follow!

Ed Sutton said : Can you cite even one verse in either the OT or NT, that ever commands us to hate anyone, on a personal basis? I have not seen such. I will admit that I could have missed one, however, and will be glad to acknowledge such, if I have, if you can show such.

Right on Ed. And as we are followers of Christ we are living by Christ's teachings in the New Testament. There is no room for hatred in the teachings of Christ.

Who was it that Christ came down hard on? The religious bigots of his day, the Parasees, the most fundamental of the fundamentalists of Israel in his day. Fair warning to all of us.

 

[rbell]

We are to love, to witness, and to preach the truth. Hatred for people has no place in the Christian life.

Agreed.

To take the phrase "abhor that which is evil" and use it to justify hatred is an enormous stretch (and IMO misuse) of Scripture.