It isn't "free". And neither are you. The fact that you find the state-granted permissions you enjoy agreeable does not make you free. But I do understand that in some ways Europians enjoy more freedoms than Americans do because we abandoned our constitution long ago.
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Socialism in America
- Thread starter mandym
- Start date
And you think which economic system is fair and equitable? It is not the Soviet system that rewards political people and denies opposition parties and groups. Do you think it is the Chinese system? Not even Washington and Obama is fair and equitable and just. What system is this glorious system where everything is just?
There is not one.
Capitalism where the government lets the free markets work will have evil people, as each other system does, but atleast we have a system for dealing with immorality. There was not a system in dealing with such in under Stalin and Krushchev or a system in China.
You want justice, but offer no system that can give you that. Why? Only the Gospel of Jesus Christ and understanding Justice through the cross, through the preaching and teaching of God's word, can accomplish this. Capitalism atleast allows us to shop and support those we believe offer a product and a service you believe is just. No other system allows for this choice.
Can you guarantee that the wage will be fair, though?
Fair to who? The wage is set by the demand in a particular industry. Of course the left does not get that and that is why our car companies almost went under. We should have let them die. You cannot pay more for the labor that the demand will supply for. Otherwise people just stop buying the product if it costs to much.
In capitalism? yes!
If you make 10/hour now but another person who sees your talent offers you 11/hour, you will go to the 11/hour job. That is fair.
On the other hand, if you work for 10/hour and the employer should only be paying you 9/hour because you are a terrible employee, you are robbing the employer. Thus, you will probably not have a job soon and you are making the employer pay too much. There is a contract between two people, they agree to pay you and you agree to work. If you don't like the terms of the contract, capitalism says you don't have to keep working for them.
There was a situation where I thought I was severely underpaid. I went and found another job that paid more and I was happy with the new contract. There were also places where I liked and was offered more money, but I didn't take it because I though the other job would have been a bad situation.
There is a stewardship principle in the Bible. That principles states that an employer should pay you what you are worth, and not one penny more or less. Doing such would be bad stewardship. This principle has been expounded upon for 400 years in Christian literature. In cases where this has not occurred, the church has actually become involved. One man was church disciplined because he underpaid his people and the economy was such that they could not find another job. So, I am for stewardship, but normally what is agreed upon is based upon what you can bring to the job.
Is this fair? Yes!
What if the farmer pays you only $2 an hour for your work? What if you 'agree' this because there are no peach-picking jobs which pay any higher wages? What if the reason for this is that the locak farmers have clubbed together to form a wage-fixing cartel? It is, to use your word, 'preposterous' to say that this is 'win-win' or that this is what was 'agreed'.
See above for an example of 'unequal weights'.
Enough to live on at least.
What if you are underpaid and there are no other jons you can do? Is that fair? No!
Sure it is fair if you have accepted the employment their and the age they offered. Otherwise go somewhere else.
You are making an assumption that is not valid. If you have a job and the only job you can get is making less or no job at all, you probably should do something to make yourself more marketable. If there are no other jobs for you, then it is fair that the employers pay you less, you are worth less as there are a myriad of others who would take your place if you quit.
I hired people and had one person threaten to quit because we paid them too little (or they didn't get enough of a bonus). The fact was, I had hundreds of applicants for his job willing to make less than I paid him. In actuality, he would have done me a service to quit, I would have saved thousands of dollars. However, he realized that he couldn't find another comparable job that paid as much.
I was in that situation. I didn't want to go back into the ministry full time but I wanted to make more money. So, I began a year and a half quest to make myself more marketable and worth more to people. This included getting my MBA, getting expertise in other areas, joining organizations that would help give me more credentials, and much more. I became a leader in several non-profit organizations and was recognized for some great things that I accomplished.
Would it be unfair for my company to pay me more? Yes, because I couldn't make more money elsewhere. Was it fair for me to improve myself and then take another job for more money? Yes!
Both are Capitalistic.
If you agree to take a job offered at a certain wage, then what's unfair?
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Possibly the fact that the employer has unequal bargaining power compared to the employee.
and that is as it should be. the owner takes the risk, invests his capital and must deal with the difficulties of running and owning the business. The investment in the company between the owner and the employee is not equal. Neither should the bargaining power be.
It's not a 'better work ethic' to work for less than you need to adequately live on! Where I come from, that's called wage slavery.
And in one paragraph you've just summed up the evils of capitalism.
Then don't. Go somewhere else.
And if there is nowhere else?
Nothing evil about that. This entitlement attitude distorts reasonable thinking and sound judgment.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Matt, do you get the impression (as I do) that the very word "socialism" seems to mean something quite diferent in the States to what it does here in the UK? There, it seems, it can be used to mean almost the same thing as communism!