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Socialist paradise: Britain cancels 50,000 surgeries

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JohnDeereFan

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The NHS isn’t perfect but my experiences have been good and if you look at the overall costs, it’s a far better system than what the USA has right now.

First of all, something can be "better" than something terrible and still be bad or even immoral.

For instance, Hitler was "better" than Stalin, but I think those of us who aren't Democrats are all pretty much agreed that Hitler was pretty bad.

Second, the system we have now is Obamacare. We don't like it, either. That's why we're working to change it and return healthcare to the free market, where it belongs.
 

JohnDeereFan

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You're living in a republican-fantasy world if you think the U.S. has a working healthcare system. And now they want to take away what little we have. I call that murder of the born.

You keep saying that, but you realize the system we have in place now is Obamacare, right? The system all the Democrats wanted? How is it a "Republicans fantasy world" to claim that Obamacare is working?

Also, who is trying to take away what you have? Were you that concerned about all of the people who lost their insurance coverage because of Obamacare?
 

JohnDeereFan

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I am terrified of single-payer systems as implemented in socialist countries. Can this happen in the US? Was Obama trying to give everyone healthcare all along?

Most nations with single payer healthcare systems are not socialist nations. They’re democracies like the USA. The definition of socialism isn’t simply “has a government-financed healthcare system”.

The USA has many single payer systems. Roads, sewers, etc. That does not mean the USA is socialist.

The USA also has single payer health care systems. For example, military personnel have access to the government financed VA system.

The vast majority of people living in democratic nations with government-financed healthcare system would not want to give them up for a US model. Criticism of some aspect of your nation’s healthcare system does not necessarily mean, therefore, the US system is better.

If you had an excellent health plan you can never lose, typically those reserved for the very rich in America, you probably should be terrified of losing that plan and having to get in line with everyone else.


Matt Williams, Historian, professional writer, former educator.
Updated Dec 30

Why would you be afraid of this prospect? What about affordable, universal health care scares you? Is it the idea that everyone will be able to guarantee their own health and live full, productive lives? Is the idea that when you get sick, you know you will be able to get medical care? Or is it some ideological revulsion at the idea of “socialized medicine”?

If it is the last item, I got news for you. You’ve been effectively conditioned by decades of propaganda that sought to teach people that socialized medicine is somehow evil. In accordance with this Cold War-era philosophy, socialized medicine is evil because socialized anything means socialism, which in turn equals communism, which equals Stalinism.

In reality, socialized medicine means medicine that is guaranteed by the government and is paid for with taxes. Every democratic nation passed such measures in the immediate post-war era to ensure that their citizens had access to health care and could lead healthy, productive lives. It was a measure designed to end centuries where only those who could afford medical care would get it, while the poor and working class would be expected to suffer with illness or go broke paying for treatment.

The United States experienced this phenomena as well, with the advent of Medicare and Medicaid. And the results have spoken for themselves. In nations where socialized medicine (more properly known as universal health care) was introduced, populations experienced an increase in average life expectancy as the gap between the rich and the poor narrowed. Each of these nations, the US included, experienced the single-greatest increase in standards of living.

The only reason universal health care has been resisted in the US is because of the insurance lobby. During the Cold War era, they spent a fortune on advertising, and even hired then-actor Ronald Reagan, to spread the message.

Plagiarize much?
 

church mouse guy

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And how is this paid for?

Well, if you gave me a penny for everytime someone has answered this question, I could retire. If you are indigent, generally you go to the county hospital. They treat you and the federal government refunds the county hospitals.

There is no one without healthcare. There are millions without a card from a health insurance company.

Now in UK, treatment will become available as soon as the political problems are solved (Tories), meanwhile you go on a list unless you are too hold for a treatment, which is also decided on a political basis, huh?
 

HankD

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Under socialism each citizen's paycheck has about 80% removed (Actually or hidden).

The rest is for you - kind of like a citizen's allowance...

HankD
 

Matt Black

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Under socialism each citizen's paycheck has about 80% removed (Actually or hidden).

The rest is for you - kind of like a citizen's allowance...

HankD
Rubbish: the top tax rate here is 45%, which I believe is lower than it was your side of The Pond under Eisenhower, so I presume you're going to accuse that Republican President of running a Socialist Paradise in the US in the Fifties, LOL
 

HankD

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Rubbish: the top tax rate here is 45%, which I believe is lower than it was your side of The Pond under Eisenhower, so I presume you're going to accuse that Republican President of running a Socialist Paradise in the US in the Fifties, LOL
your words not mine.

45% of what?

HankD
 

church mouse guy

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Of their paycheck

Have you been reading biographies of Adlai Stevenson or something? The high tax rates stemmed from FDR. Actually, we are too broke to afford an expensive medical system such as you have. Hopefully, we are abolishing the old rule that health insurance could not be sold across state lines and that should lead to cheaper policies. Our medicines are expensive because we have the costs of R&D calculated into the consumer cost. We do a lot of R&D here.
 

JohnDeereFan

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Things might get tough if we get a bunch of Brits who can't pay their bills over here as tourists and we have to give them tickets back to UK.

Trump's sending back a bunch of Salvadorians who have overstayed their welcome. We'll just stick them on the plane with the Salvadorians.
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
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Driven by the U.N.

There should be no question right now on America’ s stance on them right now.

Silly argument.
 

David Kent

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Strange how we have very different memories.
The Cons sold our nationalized industries - run for the benefit of the customers, profits reducing taxes - to people who sold them on, often to foreign investors.
Prices have rocketed and service has slumped.
The industries had become so inefficient that the government could no longer afford to subsidise them Most were crippled by strikes.

I commuted by rail for most of my working life. I can remember the overcrowded, dirty, slow, regularly late trains. With private companies we have new trains. still slow though. Slower than when I first moved to Kent. That is because we now have high speed trains, which out of the rush hour are slower than when I moved down here. Even then Old Time Commuters on the line said that the service was slower than in the steam train days.

Te only reason that the high speed train is faster than the ordinary trains is that they have added lots of extra stops on the non high speed line. A fast train in those days did the journey in 1hr 10 mins, now it takes over 1½ hours.
 

David Kent

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I agree that Corbyn's plans are not properly costed but I disagree about the cause or the financial mess we got into and also the solution to it: the financial crisis was caused by unscrupulous bankers who then demanded a bail out from the taxpayer costing £billions. There was then the myth propagated by the Tories for ideological reasons that austerity was the only solution to the mess when it could be more cogently argued that removing money from the economy in the way that it was exacerbated the situation whilst plunging many working families into poverty.
The socialist Govt. allowed the bankers to operate freely when they were supposed to be supervising them.

I am told by US posters on another board that the US is not a democracy but a Republic. Republics are socialist, based on some Greek whose name I can't remember, who taught socialist republics.
 

JohnDeereFan

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Republics are socialist, based on some Greek whose name I can't remember, who taught socialist republics.

The Greek was Plato and some republics are socialist, some aren't.

There's nothing inherently "socialist" about a republic. A republic is just a form of government a socialist government may choose.
 

David Kent

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The Greek was Plato and some republics are socialist, some aren't.

There's nothing inherently "socialist" about a republic. A republic is just a form of government a socialist government may choose.

I nearly said Plato, but I wasn't sure. He said the state knew best and they should bring up children, not the parents, That happens in many countries these days,
 
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