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Socialist paradise: Britain cancels 50,000 surgeries

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Revmitchell

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Whose money? How much of health service money is he entitled to ? Services that used to be in house, provided by salaried professionals who pay tax are now paid to Branson's organisation.

How is health money being paid to Branson's organization?
 

Revmitchell

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How does the US insurance system pay for chronic conditions such as diabetes, epilepsy, heart defects, that start in childhood.

Not sure I understand this question. The parents purchase insurance and as their children grow up it covers them. Not sure why this is a singled out issue.
 

Rob_BW

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So if the person or organisation who owns the road says you can't use it anymore as it's their road not yours, you'd be totally cool with that, right?
That's why I have road insurance. Ic someone closes down the road they dispatch a Chinook helicopter to sling load me to my destination. :D

But seriously, that has happeed here. Before 9/11, my neighbor Fort Bragg was pretty much wide open. Then after the attacks, they shut down quite a few roads that were major north-south or east-west travel routes. Life went on, and 16 years later they're still working on building alternate routes.
 

church mouse guy

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Roads are financed by vehicle tax & local authorities.
Only the rich can opt out of paying taxes - the poor & middle classes have tax deducted from income.
Some s/e prefer to be paid in cash to avoid paying tax.
Self employed should declare tax annually & are fined if they are late paying.
The rich s/e use accountants & legal tax avoidance systems. Tp stay on topic, Branson of Virgin Health is in the forefront of acquiring medical services & charging for them pays very little tax relative to income. The hospitals pay him & that money is lost to the health service, instead of medical staff being paid, & the money staying in the system.

See, you have nailed one of the problems with big government such as you have in the UK. The rich have lawyers and accountants by the buildings full and they avoid paying taxes. Thus the middle class is left to keep the country going.

Here in this country, Obama did his best to abolish the middle class and he reduced their numbers dramatically. We, too, have a large underground economy where items are bartered to avoid taxes and wages are paid under the table in cash. Mostly, the upper classes have been the strongest advocates for certain types of immigration to lower the costs of labor and to vote reliably for the big government agenda. As for Branson, I know him mostly for his friendship with Obama and his ownership of Virgin Mobile cell phone service, which is good. The big problem with socialized medicine is that costs are very high and results are very low. Our Veterans Hospitals are a disgrace of filth and laziness.
 

church mouse guy

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Actually, the rich pay a disproportionately high percentage of taxes.

I know--when they are caught in the web. However, if one has clever accountants and lawyers, there are thousands of loopholes, etc. Remember when Warren Buffett was complaining that his secretary paid a higher rate than he did? It was because she worked for a living and he had only capital gains, I think.
 

Matt Black

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What choice is it when the government confiscates one's money for a worthless product and one is forced to provide something adequate on one's own?

Government, as you know, Matt, is not a god.
It's not a worthless product: our kids' government-funded schools are actually very good. No one is 'forced' to pay privately for healthcare: if you want to pay jump the line for non-urgent treatment , sure you can, just don't whine about it.
 

church mouse guy

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It's not a worthless product: our kids' government-funded schools are actually very good. No one is 'forced' to pay privately for healthcare: if you want to pay jump the line for non-urgent treatment , sure you can, just don't whine about it.

The logically fallacy of your point is the title of this thread.

We don't wait, as many others have pointed out above, for what you have had to postpone for lack of money. Granted, our system is being funded by a 20 trillion dollar national debt, which may be worthless, but for the time being, we get what we need very rapidly. Your system, on the other hand, has been rationed for a long time. We constantly read reports that dialysis is not given to a patient over fifty or something. The poor are always going to suffer at the hands of the government, but our doctors are still revered in that we want them to earn good money and not be poverty-stricken. We have a taste of your system in our disgraceful filthy Veterans Hospitals where our best die in the corridors waiting for a lazy doctor.
 

Matt Black

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How is health money being paid to Branson's organization?
Covenanter explained that in his/ her previous post. Background: the NHS local trusts are now allowed to put out to tender for services that have hitherto been provided inhouse, on the theroretical basis at least of introducing competition and something of the free market into healthcare. NB: said healthcare would still be fully taxpayer funded. For instance, my wife's Speech and Language Therapy service, paid for and employed by the local NHS trust, has had to tender to provide that service for Hampshire. Branson's company also tendered to provide that service but they did not succeed in their bid....this time. Their bid was based on the fact it was cheaper but (IMO) when one drilled down into the fine print, they were actually providing a worse service (one doesn't get what one doesn't pay for) and, fortunately, the Clinical Commissioning Group saw through it and kept the Speech Therapy service within the NHS. Branson has however won the bid for the neighbouring county, so taxpayers' monies are indeed being applied for his benefit...
 

JohnDeereFan

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I know--when they are caught in the web. However, if one has clever accountants and lawyers, there are thousands of loopholes, etc.

Dem talking point bovine skubulon.

Remember when Warren Buffett was complaining that his secretary paid a higher rate than he did? It was because she worked for a living and he had only capital gains, I think.

Do you know the difference between capital gains taxes and income taxes? Do you know why capital gains taxes are so much lower? (Hint: It isn't some shadowy conspiracy by the evil rich people.)
 

FollowTheWay

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If you are going to have a system that allows you to buy superior care privately, then it would be best if the government refunded your money collected from you for a system that you don't use.

I once worked for a billionaire. His medical care was the best. On the other hand, government medicine is designed for only the poorest of the poor.

Government is not a god and government does not bring us together but divides us, as you know.

LBJ said that he was going to take from the haves and give to the have-nots. What he actually did was loot the middle class and give to his political party constituents. Government healthcare is also subject to political intrigue, is it not?
What Reagan, the two Bushes and Trump have done and are continuing to do is to take from the poor and the middle class and give it to the rich. That's evident in the degree of inequality we have today in the U.S.which is the worst in the developed world. We're much more like Trump's ally Russia than we are like the U.K., France, Sweden, etc. They provide for the poor and needy. Our Republican majority says let them die. We have debtor's prisons don't we?

 

JohnDeereFan

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What Reagan, the two Bushes and Trump have done and are continuing to do is to take from the poor and the middle class and give it to the rich.

And how do they do that, exactly, when the rich pay the majority of taxes, while the poor don't pay any income taxes at all?

They provide for the poor and needy. Our Republican majority says let them die.

Please name the Republican who says "Let the poor and needy die"?
 

InTheLight

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What Reagan, the two Bushes and Trump have done and are continuing to do is to take from the poor and the middle class and give it to the rich. That's evident in the degree of inequality we have today in the U.S.which is the worst in the developed world.

Time and time and time again I've asked you for proof of these claims. Income inequality is not proof. Income inequality is what happens in a robust capitalistic system where there are no static, zero-sum money schemes. What legislation has the GOP passed that has taken money from the poor and given to the rich?
 

church mouse guy

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What Reagan, the two Bushes and Trump have done and are continuing to do is to take from the poor and the middle class and give it to the rich. That's evident in the degree of inequality we have today in the U.S.which is the worst in the developed world. We're much more like Trump's ally Russia than we are like the U.K., France, Sweden, etc. They provide for the poor and needy. Our Republican majority says let them die. We have debtor's prisons don't we?


So you are the one who is getting rich--I knew it wasn't me. Obama about destroyed the middle class.
 

FollowTheWay

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Time and time and time again I've asked you for proof of these claims. Income inequality is not proof. Income inequality is what happens in a robust capitalistic system where there are no static, zero-sum money schemes. What legislation has the GOP passed that has taken money from the poor and given to the rich?
Time and time again I've provided proof. The answer is the tax revision bill.

Tax Plan’s Biggest Cuts Could Be in Living Standards

The Joint Committee’s analysis of an early version of the Senate Republican plan found that 10 years from now, millionaires would get a tax cut worth $8,500, on average. People earning $75,000 or less, by contrast, would experience a tax increase.

Adding in the cuts to Social Security, Medicaid, education and other programs that Republicans are planning to cull to pay for the tax reductions, the cost to poor and middle-income families would be even greater.
 

FollowTheWay

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So you are the one who is getting rich--I knew it wasn't me. Obama about destroyed the middle class.
The American middle class has been destroyed by Reaganomics which was continued by both the Bushes and now Trump. It never did work and never will. Do you have any support for your position or are you making it up as usual?

How economic inequality is damaging our social structure

In their book, Winner-Take-All Politics: How Washington Made The Rich Richer-And Turned Its Back On The Middle Class, Jacob Hacker and Paul Pearson argue that since the late 1970's, an intense campaign of anti-democracy policy changes have resulted in an intense concentration of wealth and income to the very few individuals and corporations in the U.S.

Steven Pressman, an economist, reports in his book, The Decline of the Middle Class: An International Perspective, that from 1980 to 2000 when we experienced explosive economic growth, most western nations, particularly the U.S. saw their middle class shrink. Pressman says that most of shrinkage was a result of people falling into the poverty class and a few up into the higher bracket.
 

church mouse guy

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The American middle class has been destroyed by Reaganomics which was continued by both the Bushes and now Trump. It never did work and never will. Do you have any support for your position or are you making it up as usual?

How economic inequality is damaging our social structure

In their book, Winner-Take-All Politics: How Washington Made The Rich Richer-And Turned Its Back On The Middle Class, Jacob Hacker and Paul Pearson argue that since the late 1970's, an intense campaign of anti-democracy policy changes have resulted in an intense concentration of wealth and income to the very few individuals and corporations in the U.S.

Steven Pressman, an economist, reports in his book, The Decline of the Middle Class: An International Perspective, that from 1980 to 2000 when we experienced explosive economic growth, most western nations, particularly the U.S. saw their middle class shrink. Pressman says that most of shrinkage was a result of people falling into the poverty class and a few up into the higher bracket.

You keep repeating how well you are doing--I'm glad. I am as poor as a church mouse. Obama made things even worse. Things were a little better for the poor under Reagan--we got jobs after the Carter recession. Now with the stock market up so high, maybe some of it will trickle down on us church mice.
 
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