Sola Scriptura: week-day-1 vs Bible Sabbath

[utilyan]

Its common sense I would not have to explain to GENTILE Christians the on goings of the Sabbath especially when it was the exact same thing! sharing the exact same holy day and the exact same business of reading scripture.

Here we got all together in one group Pharisees with the Christians. Among apostles and elders there is DEBATE. Whats the issue?

They must be circumcised AND observe the Law of Moses.


5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”


So I have a simple question here.

What is the Law of Moses? If its in the law of Moses I don't have to do it Does that mean if the law of Moses says don't kill then I have a license to kill? No because I adhere to the command of GOD when Jesus said LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and LOVE GOD.

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered "Observe the Sabbath"?

Don't worship on Wednesday nights. Time...... When the sun revolves on the earth and the stars line up this particular way that's all a calendar does is line up astrology for us.

Friday rolls around......well is it 5pm yet? nope can't worship God yet.

This is absurd.

 

[BobRyan]

What is the much-expected response to these texts?

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2


"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

You still have the philosophy that the repetition of error will someday become truth??
Who has deceived you that you should believe this lie.

The mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it. How instructive.

Here again we have an "instructive moment" we should pause here and reflect on what you are saying.

Meanwhile -- I will stick with the Bible on this point.

 

[BobRyan]

Its common sense I would not have to explain to GENTILE Christians the on goings of the Sabbath especially when it was the exact same thing! sharing the exact same holy day and the exact same business of reading scripture.

And so there they are "Sabbath after Sabbath" and "EVERY SABBATH" Acts 18:4 preaching to GENTILES and Jews in the Synagogues - with the result that "practically the WHOLE CITY" turns out "the next Sabbath" to hear the Gospel. Acts 13:44

And so having nothing at all like that in the NT "week-day-1 after week-day-1" or "EVERY week-day-1" for anything at all - in either NT or OT - -- by comparison -- you simply reject the "sola scriptura" information that we DO have on that point??

Even your own RCC claims that the Sabbath Commandment (though "bent" in their opinion to point to week-day-1) -- in fact all TEN Commandments apply to Christians to this very day.

 

[BobRyan]

Ib

They must be circumcised AND observe the Law of Moses.


5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”


So I have a simple question here.

What is the Law of Moses?

Some people think it is
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5.

Is it your opinion that Acts 15 is teaching us to rebel against anything God says in the OT????

Or is it in specific context of ceremonial laws such as circumcision?

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19 is said by Paul in specific reference to the ceremonial law of circumcision. The MORAL law of God defines sin - Paul is not commanding gentiles to sin.

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

Even your own RCC admits to this point and admits that the TEN Commandments are not limited to "just Jews". How then is this at all confusing for you?

DHK has the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and "D.L. Moody" making the same case for the continued TEN Commandments applicable to all -- but he can ignore them as he wishes -- and strongly object to texts - merely at the quote of them... but how can you do that opposing both the texts AND your own magisterium??

 

[BobRyan]

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered "Observe the Sabbath"?

.

Jesus answered "KEEP the COMMANDMENTS" Matt 19

16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

What were the TEN Commandments before the cross?? Dead?? Not according to your own RCC.

What about after the cross?

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[BobRyan]

Christ fulfilled the LAW?

True!
- the Law to "love God with all your heart" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Honor your parents" perfectly fulfilled by Christ - yet we have Eph 6:2 reminding us not to break it. Because it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-binding UNIT of TEN


"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

WE are not under the condemnation of the LAW but as the very chapter that speaks to this point says - that does not mean we are free to sin against it - for "SIN is transgression of the LAW"

You defined "under the law" as -- "obedience" and condemned obedience to what Christ calls "The WORD of GOD" in Mark 7:6-13.

"The house of Israel and the house of Judah" --- "New Covenant".

And in Gen 2:1-3 Sabbath MADE for mankind Mark 2:27 - Ex 20:11 in Eden.
Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL mankind come before Me to worship"

And are literal Jews part of mankind?



NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2

Now wonder gentiles are attending worship service "Sabbath after Sabbath" Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4 and also "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:1-6. Isaiah 56:1-8

Jews are Jews. This has nothing to do with you. You are not a Jew. Besides it says nothing of keeping the Sabbath.


The Sabbath was given to the Jews or Israel. Full Stop. End of story. Read Exodus 31.

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2

 

[BobRyan]

1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.

8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13


Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Which is a specific reference to "The FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2 - in that still valid - unit of TEN

 

[BobRyan]

How many reminders will we need that Lev 19 and Deut 6 was spoken to Israel?

"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5.

How many reminders will we need that in Matt 22 Christ is speaking to JEWS when He references

"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5.

How many times will we need to be reminded that such "speaking to Jews" is not at all a reason to ignore the Word of God???

 

[BobRyan]

What is the Law of Moses? If its in the law of Moses I don't have to do it Does that mean if the law of Moses says don't kill then I have a license to kill? No because I adhere to the command of GOD when Jesus said LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and LOVE GOD.
.

Is it the "teaching of Jesus" to "reject the teaching of Jesus"?? or is it the teaching of Jesus to view "Moses Said" = "Word of God" = "Commandment of God"??

What is the "teaching of Jesus" in this text.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Which is a specific reference to "The FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2 - in that still valid - unit of TEN

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered "Observe the Sabbath"?

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered, "Love your neighbour as yourself"? "Love God above all else"?

NO!
If Jesus had answered, "Observe the Sabbath", I stood no chance, seeing no one observes the Sabbath. But had Jesus answered, "Love your neighbour as yourself; Love God above all else", I stood even less a chance, seeing Jesus said this is the BIGGEST and MOST IMPOSSIBLE of Law for anyone and everyone to keep.

I must do NOTHING to be saved. God saves; He saved me. He saved me not because of anything I did but because of everything Jesus had done to save God's elect.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered "Observe the Sabbath"?

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered, "Love your neighbour as yourself"? "Love God above all else"?

NO!
If Jesus had answered, "Observe the Sabbath", I stood no chance, seeing no one observes the Sabbath. But had Jesus answered, "Love your neighbour as yourself; Love God above all else", I stood even less a chance, seeing Jesus said this is the BIGGEST and MOST IMPOSSIBLE of Law for anyone and everyone to keep.

I must do NOTHING to be saved. God saves; He saved me. He saved me not because of anything I did but because of everything Jesus had done to save God's elect.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered "Observe the Sabbath"?

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered, "Love your neighbour as yourself"? "Love God above all else"?

NO!
If Jesus had answered, "Observe the Sabbath", I stood no chance, seeing no one observes the Sabbath. But had Jesus answered, "Love your neighbour as yourself; Love God above all else", I stood even less a chance, seeing Jesus said this is the BIGGEST and MOST IMPOSSIBLE of Law for anyone and everyone to keep.

I must do NOTHING to be saved. God saves; He saved me. He saved me not because of anything I did but because of everything Jesus had done to save God's elect.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Its common sense I would not have to explain to GENTILE Christians the on goings of the Sabbath especially when it was the exact same thing! sharing the exact same holy day and the exact same business of reading scripture.

Here we got all together in one group Pharisees with the Christians. Among apostles and elders there is DEBATE. Whats the issue?

They must be circumcised AND observe the Law of Moses.


5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”


So I have a simple question here.

What is the Law of Moses? If its in the law of Moses I don't have to do it Does that mean if the law of Moses says don't kill then I have a license to kill? No because I adhere to the command of GOD when Jesus said LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and LOVE GOD.

What must I do to be saved? Jesus answered "Observe the Sabbath"?

Don't worship on Wednesday nights. Time...... When the sun revolves on the earth and the stars line up this particular way that's all a calendar does is line up astrology for us.

Friday rolls around......well is it 5pm yet? nope can't worship God yet.

This is absurd.

You said it; it sure is absurd. ---NO SCRIPTURE, see!

 

[utilyan]

5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Again asking the questions WHAT IS THE LAW OF MOSES? What is this law we are done away with.


When Cain murdered Abel. It wasn't necessary to look up a commandment that gets written later to know it was wrong. So its not like without the ten commandments we have no clue of right and wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Again asking the questions WHAT IS THE LAW OF MOSES? What is this law we are done away with.


When Cain murdered Abel. It wasn't necessary to look up a commandment that gets written later to know it was wrong. So its not like without the ten commandments we have no clue of right and wrong.

Gen 26:5 "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Gen 4 "SIN is crouching at your door" --

There was Law at that time. "SIN is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - not just in OT - but also in NT.

Moses wrote both Genesis and Exodus and both books were available for his readers so he did not need to repeat all of Exodus 20 inside of every chapter in Genesis.

The LAW of Moses "Moses said" is upheld by Christ in Mark 7:6-13 - and the church magisterium of Christ's day that tried to bend-edit it - were condemned "sola scriptura" by Christ for opposing it.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

"Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" according to Christ

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

So also in the LAW of Moses we have
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Quoted by Christ and upheld for Christians in Matt 22,

But the LAW of Moses also included ceremonial law - and Paul says that in contrast to the "Commandments of God" also in the LAW of Moses - the ceremonial law had ended.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

I find it interesting that you are taking a position not only apparently opposed to these texts - but also opposed to your own denomination.

 

[BobRyan]

5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Again asking the questions WHAT IS THE LAW OF MOSES? What is this law we are done away with.


When Cain murdered Abel. .

Not the moral law - the law that defines sin - which includes the TEN Commandments by Bible standards - AND by your OWN denomination's standards. Why is it you keep coming back to this when it is not just the Bible that has the answer - it is also your own church??

Eph 6:2 "the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- in WHAT unit of LAW?

This is an easy one.

Heb 10 says it is the ceremonial law - of "Sacrifices and offerings" that ends..

Paul contrasts circumcision with the moral law of God in 1 Cor 7:19 saying "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Again I ask -- the moral law - the law that defines sin - which includes the TEN Commandments by Bible standards - AND by your OWN denomination's standards, is what remains.

So why is it you keep coming back to this? Either accept the Bible or your own denomination on this one - and you would still get it right.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And so there they are "Sabbath after Sabbath" and "EVERY SABBATH" Acts 18:4 preaching to GENTILES and Jews in the Synagogues - with the result that "practically the WHOLE CITY" turns out "the next Sabbath" to hear the Gospel. Acts 13:44

You say it! Not to hear the Law! <<to hear the Gospel>> "... The WORD of God--Jesus Christ preached, taught, proclaimed, announced : "EVERLASTING LIFE"! ---"God according to His Promise RAISED UNTO ISRAEL A SAVIOUR JESUS ... To you is the word of THIS SALVATION sent ... GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD ... THIS DAY have I begotten Thee ... as concerning that God RAISED HIM UP from the dead ... He Whom God RAISED AGAIN ... through THIS MAN is preached unto you forgiveness of sins ... I WORK A WORK IN YOUR DAYS ... the next SABBATH ... and the NEXT Sabbath.

But SDA close the eyes to THIS DAY : THIS "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE", "which God fufilled unto ... the fathers (Israel) ... and so much later the same mercies spoken to David ... TODAY if ye hear his Voice, harden not the heart!"

But in vain does God TODAY speak to the house of SDA. They have stopped the ear; they have hardened the heart; they are filled with envy; they are contradicting and blaspheming. Because it is NOT NECESSARY for them that the Word of God should be spoken FIRST to them before their own SOP.

O they know too well how to speak the Law the Law to them that do not know, but they themselves know absolutely nothing. Least they know, is to HEAR ... except an own righteousness by the works of the LAW.

 

[BobRyan]

You say it! Not to hear the Law! <<to hear the Gospel>> ".. .

According to the Gospel - which is the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and on their mind"

In the gospel - the lost are guilty of sin -- which is "TRANSGRESSION of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

In the Gospel once you are born-again the LAW is written on the heart and mind.

IN the Gospel the 'SAINTS KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

In the Gospel account of Mark 7:6-13 JESUS said "The WORD of GOD" = "The Commandment of God" = "Moses said".

In the Gospel account in Luke 16 "IF they do not hear Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

In the Gospel we SHOW that we Love God and love the people of God this way --
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

According to the Gospel which is the New Covenant, the New Covenant IS THE NEW LAW, Jesus Christ— "I will write My LAWS --- Jesus Christ, He in Person and the Laws He represents --- on their heart and on their mind"

In the Gospel not only the lost are guilty of sin—all are. All are sinners; all are "TRANSGRESSORS” of the Law all by nature being against Jesus Christ— even in the NT. 1 John 3:4.

In the NT it is Christ who creates the awareness of being a sinner—no longer the Law. In reality there never has been any covenant or era of God’s revelation wherein the written Law was able to give an awareness or consciousness of sin or the need of grace. It has always been the work of God Himself. But where God made use of the written Law to bring about this consciousness in Old Testament times, He uses Christ the All in all fulfilling Fullness of God in death and resurrection FROM THE DEAD for his holy purpose. In the NT it is Christ who creates the awareness and conviction of being a sinner never without the awareness and conviction of salvation and redemption.
In the Gospel once you are born-again CHRIST JESUS the LAW is written on the heart and mind.
IN the Gospel the 'SAINTS KEEP the Commandments of God EVEN THE FAITH OF JESUS"

In the Gospel account of Mark 7:6-13 JESUS said the “Pharisees … make the Word of God—Jesus Christ—of none effect THROUGH YOUR TRADITIONS which YE have delivered.”


In the Gospel account in Luke 16 it says, "IF they do not hear Moses neither will they listen though One—Jesus Christ—, rises from the dead". It is the exact same truth with which the SDA is still plagued at this point in human history. That Christ rose from the dead is, if ever, scarcely mentioned among them—what acknowledged and duly honoured for the meaning it must have for God and his Church.

In the Gospel we show HOW we Love God and the people of God—the LAW’S way. INEVITABLY WE MUST FAIL, FOR “… 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.” Now who, does?

“3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3 But we, are, o, so burdensome!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard Ebersoehn said: ↑
FALSE!
"The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" --WHY-- because "JESUS GAVE THEM REST ...

GE - a helpful hint. The point in these discussions is to post some point - clearly and concisely in such a way that everyone gets your point - whether they agree with you or not.

"wild rant..wild rant...wild rant" is not a point. It conveys emotion but not much else.

To SDA Hebrews 4:8,9, “If Jesus gave them Rest [through Resurrection from the dead] there THEREFORE for the People of God remains a keeping of the Sabbath Day", is, <<"wild rant..wild rant...wild rant">>; <<is not a point>>; <<conveys emotion but not much else>>.

...typical SDA BobRyan's BEST! --- worthless, BEST ... "Jesus having entered into his own Rest-as-God in his own" ... through Resurrection from the dead ---NO 0THER WAY!!