Sola Scriptura: week-day-1 vs Bible Sabbath

[BobRyan]

FALSE!
"The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" --WHY-- because "JESUS GAVE THEM REST ...

GE - a helpful hint. The point in these discussions is to post some point - clearly and concisely in such a way that everyone gets your point - whether they agree with you or not.

"wild rant..wild rant...wild rant" is not a point. It conveys emotion but not much else.

 

[DHK]

THIS IS THE HERITAGE OF THE SERVANTS OF THE LORD AND THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS : IT IS OF ME, SAITH THE LORD.


Now we can read Ephesians 1:18, “… that ye may know WHAT is the hope of his calling and WHAT the riches of the glory of HIS INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS.”

It is the word of the prophet Isaiah in chapters 54-58 FULFILLED IN AND BY AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST to the redemption through the Love and Grace of God of everyone of His Own. God’s is the all blessings in Jesus Christ encompassing Covenant of Grace; as it includes every redeemed in Christ’s Heritage, it includes every blessing in Christ’s Inheritance.


But DHK claims Christ’s inheritance is meagre and lean, and includes the nation of Israel after the flesh only.

What is your method of Bible Study? One should go to a concordance, look up a word such as "inheritance," and if it is found anywhere else in the Bible then it must be related to the verse you are studying?? Is that how you think Eph.1:18 and Isa.58:13,14 are related??
Perhaps you need to go back to school. Certainly you can do better than that in your study of the Scriptures!

 

[DHK]

Yes. Christ is our Rest ---"the rest-of-God" [katapausis tou Theou]; He is not "a Sabbath Day's-rest [sabbatismos] remaining obligatory [apoleipetai] for the People of God" (Christians) ---that is "the Seventh Day God thus concerning spake ... in times past through the prophets ... and ... in these last days by the Son : ... And God the day The Seventh Day from all his works RESTED."

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

The Lord said: There is no god formed before me; there is no god formed after me. I am the Lord. There is none other.

Are you a polytheist Gerhard? Do you believe in a "Seventh Day God," a God for those who worship on the 7th day, and another God for those who worship on the first day, and perhaps other Gods for others that choose other days? How many Gods do you believe in? What is this "Seventh Day God" that you refer to? Can you show me this name in the Bible?

 

[DHK]

you did make that accusation - that part of your statement is certainly true. How nice it would be if you could actually prove it.

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
--He found fault with the law. He fulfilled the law. The law was nailed to the cross. We are not under the law.
But now you want to place yourself under the law which the NT believer has been freed from.
Tell me Bob, do you keep all 613 laws each and every day without breaking one?
If not you are cursed!

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2

Read my previous post to you. I just finished explaining this verse to you earlier TODAY! Why should I repeat myself. You are not a Jew.

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

This has nothing to do with us does it? It is speaking of another earth, a new earth, a different time. It is scripture out of context.

"Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

There is no command here to keep the sabbath.
Many things were made for mankind, including the grass in front of my house.

 

[utilyan]

Leviticus 23

11‘He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12‘Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the LORD.

Pentecost God required worship and sacrifice on Sunday.


In the new testament no one ever brings up what day you worship on OTHER then saying it doesn't matter what day.

 

[BobRyan]

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2


"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

DHK said: ↑
The passage is irrelevant for it speaks to Israel not to believers in Christ. It is Israel that will keep the Sabbaths, not believers in Christ.

..

For now - let us pause and consider that your wild speculation so far so utterly contradicts the texts just quoted --sorry but I am going to have to stick with the Bible on this.

Here is an instructive moment I think for us all - when it comes to this subject.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
--He found fault with the law.

The text says He found no fault "with the Law" -- rather "finding fault with THEM". Details matter.

And in Heb 8:6-10 we are told that the TEN Commandments are the words of CHRIST -
We are told that the LAW as known to Jeremiah - the moral LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers - would be "written on the mind and heart" under the NEW COVENANT.

Some Christians here - including myself claim to be NEW Covenant Christians - others will reject the NEW Covenant of course - since it is made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" --

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2

.

He fulfilled the law.

[/quote]

True
- the Law to "love God with all your heart" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Honor your parents" perfectly fulfilled by Christ - yet we have Eph 6:2 reminding us not to break it. Because it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-binding UNIT of TEN

The law was nailed to the cross.

You quote "you"??? No text says that in real life - so you "quote you"?

We are not under the law.

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

WE are not under the condemnation of the LAW but as the very chapter that speaks to this point says - that does not mean we are free to sin against it - for "SIN is transgression of the LAW"

But now you want to place yourself under the law

Your "definition" of "under the law" differs from Paul in his Romans 6 statement.

You defined "under the law" as -- obedience.

Thus in the model you are describing to "Love God with all your heart" is to place yourself under the LAW - in the negative sense in which Romans 6 uses that phrase.

Here again we have an "instructive moment" we should pause here and reflect on what you are saying.

 

[BobRyan]

Leviticus 23

11‘He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12‘Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the LORD.

Pentecost God required worship and sacrifice on Sunday.


In the new testament no one ever brings up what day you worship on OTHER then saying it doesn't matter what day.

1. That happens 1 time per year. - and it does not say "first day of the week"
2. Are you insisting that Christians should keep Passover? the feast of Pentecost? - Go to church on Sunday once a year?

3. Pentecost is 50 days from the annual Sabbath of Passover - which can be any day of the week in a given year.

 

[utilyan]

1. That happens 1 time per year. - and it does not say "first day of the week"
2. Are you insisting that Christians should keep Passover? the feast of Pentecost? - Go to church on Sunday once a year?

3. Pentecost is 50 days from the annual Sabbath of Passover - which can be any day of the week in a given year.

Show me sir scripture that a Sabbath is any differ from a holy day.

Doesn't matter how many times! It clearly SAYS/happens "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK".

Are we keeping score now? Is one holy day more holy then another?

Vast NUMEROLOGY superstitions. On this number or not, oh his name adds up to 666, more times here then there.

There is a reason they wrote about not making a fuss about days, months years.


Show me scripture where Jesus Christ says. "You better keep the Sabbath!" Show me scripture where Jesus says "sunday is the mark of the beast and those who worship on sunday worship satan!"

 

[DHK]

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2


"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

Repetition of error does not all of a sudden burst into truth. Your grain of truth mixed with arsenic is still poison. You have not pointed to any verse that gives a command for the NT believer to keep the Sabbath. Where is that verse Bob?

For now - let us pause and consider that your wild speculation so far so utterly contradicts the texts just quoted --sorry but I am going to have to stick with the Bible on this.

Here is an instructive moment I think for us all - when it comes to this subject.

It is always instructive Bob, since you continually post a position contrary to what the Bible actually says.

The text says He found no fault "with the Law" -- rather "finding fault with THEM". Details matter.

And in Heb 8:6-10 we are told that the TEN Commandments are the words of CHRIST -
We are told that the LAW as known to Jeremiah - the moral LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers - would be "written on the mind and heart" under the NEW COVENANT.

Some Christians here - including myself claim to be NEW Covenant Christians - others will reject the NEW Covenant of course - since it is made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" -

The only covenant in the NT that actually applies to the NT believer is that which the believer makes with Christ at the time of salvation. It is a relationship with Christ. Christ comes by the power of His Holy Spirit and dwells within the believer at the time when he receives the gift of salvation provided by Christ by faith alone, not by works. Christ paid it all. He atoned for our sins completely. There is no more work to do. Our sins are completely atoned for. His work was completely finished on the cross, as he proclaimed, "It is finished." There is nothing more to do.
There is no other covenant.

What you seem to be referring to is this:
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
--The Sabbath Day (as well as all other sabbaths) are simply shadows of the real Sabbath, which is Jesus Christ. These shadows have passed. Christ is now our rest. The Sabbath has been done away with. The Sabbath in only for the Jew.

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY

" Rom 2

There is no Jew posting on this board that I know of. You certainly are not one. I don't believe Jews would join the SDA movement. But you are prone to take scripture out of context.

.

True
- the Law to "love God with all your heart" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Honor your parents" perfectly fulfilled by Christ - yet we have Eph 6:2 reminding us not to break it. Because it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-binding UNIT of TEN

No, the fourth commandment was never applicable to the NT believer. This is easily seen as one goes to other cultures and examines "the law written on the hearts of other men." The Sabbath is never one of them.

You quote "you"??? No text says that in real life - so you "quote you"?

I am not sure what you are referring to. I quoted from memory. Here is the exact verse:
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
--What is your problem?

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Take heed in the heretical position that you post.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

WE are not under the condemnation of the LAW but as the very chapter that speaks to this point says - that does not mean we are free to sin against it - for "SIN is transgression of the LAW"

And thus it is sin when you consider what is written in the scripture that I have given you in Col.2:16,17., as well as Col.3:10. You cannot keep the law and advise others to keep the law.
In reality you don't keep the Sabbath, and never have. This is hypocrisy on your part.
Check here how to keep the Sabbath: http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

Your "definition" of "under the law" differs from Paul in his Romans 6 statement.

You defined "under the law" as -- obedience.

Thus in the model you are describing to "Love God with all your heart" is to place yourself under the LAW - in the negative sense in which Romans 6 uses that phrase.

Here again we have an "instructive moment" we should pause here and reflect on what you are saying.

It is true that law is used in more than one way in the Bible. However, when speaking of the Sabbath, the Sabbath is part of Israel's law or covenant law that does not apply to us.

This is made very clear in Exodus 31:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
--It obviously has nothing to do with the Gentile believer. It is for the Israelite and their generations forever.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My fault guys. I tend to quote between NASB and King James. But im down with original Greek anyday.



It is interesting too.


Remember Jewish time. Their day does not start with UNITED STATES 12:00AM. Ante Meridiem


The NIGHT BEFORE is also SUNDAY! Keep this in mind.



So if you think they just had a breaking break solemn Sabbath dinner. The day that follows is STILL the Sabbath.


You said:

"In Acts 20 there is no "we meet every week-day-1 to break bread" rather - Acts 20 we are gathered on week-day-1 because Paul is leaving tomorrow."


They were gathered to break bread appear "independently" in the Greek.


I will provide link to the greek. ->http://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-7.htm


So lets see the "broken English"


Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων συνηγμένων ἡμῶν κλάσαι ἄρτον ὁ


in moreover the first[day] of the week, having come together we to break bread THE(the Bread)



The "moreover" could suggest the extra new thing the "special of the week."


The typical SUNDAY is they come together to break THE BREAD.


But they get a special sermon from Paul. That lasted into MIDNIGHT. What day is it midnight? MONDAY night.


Paul talk FOR SO LONG a guy fell asleep and fell out the widow and died! How many sermons like that you ever got? Catholic church.........ALL THE TIME!


Imagine you are Paul, You need to talk to your whole congregation. Get everyone together. If Sabbath was the worship day that would have been the time to do it. And then if you need to talk to them you do, and if its a lot then you literally give them "the sermon".

You are addressing me, GE ---you replied to a quote from me. But it was BobRyan who <<…said: "In Acts 20 there is no "we meet every week-day-1 to break bread" rather - Acts 20 we are gathered on week-day-1 because Paul is leaving tomorrow.">>


Re:

<<Remember Jewish time. Their day does not start with UNITED STATES 12:00AM. Ante Meridiem

The NIGHT BEFORE is also SUNDAY! Keep this in mind.

So if you think they just had a breaking break solemn Sabbath dinner. The day that follows is STILL the Sabbath.>>


If you read what I wrote, you must have seen I have Saturday night in mind on which Paul was “STILL conversing with them”.


I don’t know what <<a breaking break solemn Sabbath dinner>> is. I guess you have in mind the Roman Catholics’ break of their Still Saturday fast. Well, I don’t believe or eat that tripe.

The Greek in verse 7 through the Infinitive of Noun Force alludes to the Lord’s Supper ---as I have explained.

And the ‘eating’ round about midnight was long after “the Lord’s Supper” on the Sabbath Day “BEFORE”— “BEFORE” referring to the event in the past which the Perfect Participle implies “BEFORE on the First Day of the week when we were assembling together STILL and Paul STILL spoke to them”.


Re: <<They were gathered to break bread appear "independently" in the Greek.>>

<<They were gathered to break bread>> appears NO WHERE <in the Greek>. You said, <<im down with original Greek anyday>>. So, don’t make a fool of yourself like in <<in moreover the first[day] of the week, having come together we to break bread THE(the Bread)>> for ‘Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων συνηγμένων ἡμῶν κλάσαι ἄρτον ὁ’. First you inserted <<began>>; now you insert <<moreover>>. There is no <moreover>. And it makes no sense anyway.


Re:

<<But they get a special sermon from Paul. That lasted into MIDNIGHT.>>

<<a special sermon from Paul>> is the figment of your imagination. There’s NO <sermon> whatsoever.


Re:

<<Paul talk FOR SO LONG a guy fell asleep and fell out the widow and died! How many sermons like that you ever got?>>


No one died; it’s the Catholic church LYING.........ALL THE TIME!


Re:

<<… your whole congregation>>

It was a small group of travelling disciples, <<everyone together>> named, plus one guy who was so disinterested he fell asleep midst the disciples’ discussions. The other inhabitants of the house stayed on the ground floor. They had nothing to do with the disciples’ “business they discussed”.


Acts 20 is down to earth; none of RC fantasy.

 

[BobRyan]

Utilyan said: ↑
Leviticus 23

11‘He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12‘Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the LORD.

Pentecost God required worship and sacrifice on Sunday.

In the new testament no one ever brings up what day you worship on OTHER then saying it doesn't matter what day.

In the NT we have repeated "Sabbath after Sabbath" and also "EVERY SABBATH" worship services for gospel preaching to GENTILES - and to Jews in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, and in Acts 18:1-5

1. That happens 1 time per year. - and it does not say "first day of the week"
2. Are you insisting that Christians should keep Passover? the feast of Pentecost? - Go to church on Sunday once a year?

3. Pentecost is 50 days from the annual Sabbath of Passover - which can be any day of the week in a given year. So the idea that it is 'always on Sunday' is not supported in the Bible. Shavuot - feast of weeks in Lev 23 - is what NT authors call "Pentecost" in Acts 2.

Shavuot - 2016 - June 11, Saturday.
Shavuot - 2017 - May 30, Tuesday

Show me sir scripture that a Sabbath is any differ from a holy day.

It is different in Gen 2:1-4 because there are not animal sacrifices and it is before all Jews were born.
It is different in Isaiah 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - because it has no animal sacrifices and is listed for all mankind - and distinct from "New Moon" services.
It is different in that it is the only one in the TEN Commandments.
It is different "for catholics" because your own Dies Domini says it is not at all limited to Jews but is for all mankind.

Doesn't matter how many times! It clearly SAYS/happens "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK".

Flawed logic because you are taking an annual event in Lev 23 and trying to munge it into a weekly event and there is no Bible justification for that.

Show me scripture where Jesus Christ says. "You better keep the Sabbath!"

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ flatly condemned church magisterium of his day for daring to tamper with one of the TEN Commandments.

Matt 5 Jesus condemns the idea of messing around with the Commandments of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Sadly for that idea - Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 both point to GENTILES being preached to in those "EVERY SABBATH" meetings.

And not once do we find Paul saying "hey gentiles please join us TOMORROW on week-day-1 for more Gospel sermons " at any of those 'EVERY SABBATH" Gospel preaching events seen with gentiles in Acts 18.

No ... not once.

Which of course would be fine with you - since the only command is "not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together" -- I suppose.

Give credit where credit is due.

 

[BobRyan]

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2


"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

DHK said: ↑
The passage is irrelevant for it speaks to Israel not to believers in Christ. It is Israel that will keep the Sabbaths, not believers in Christ.
..

For now - let us pause and consider that your wild speculation so far so utterly contradicts the texts just quoted --sorry but I am going to have to stick with the Bible on this.

Here is an instructive moment I think for us all - when it comes to this subject.

DHK said: ↑

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
--He found fault with the law.

The text says He found no fault "with the Law" -- rather "finding fault with THEM". Details matter.

And in Heb 8:6-10 we are told that the TEN Commandments are the words of CHRIST -
We are told that the LAW as known to Jeremiah - the moral LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers - would be "written on the mind and heart" under the NEW COVENANT.

Some Christians here - including myself claim to be NEW Covenant Christians - others will reject the NEW Covenant of course - since it is made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" --

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2

.

DHK said: ↑
He fulfilled the law.

True
- the Law to "love God with all your heart" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Honor your parents" perfectly fulfilled by Christ - yet we have Eph 6:2 reminding us not to break it. Because it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-binding UNIT of TEN

DHK said: ↑
The law was nailed to the cross.

You quote "you"??? No text says that in real life - so you "quote you"?



"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

WE are not under the condemnation of the LAW but as the very chapter that speaks to this point says - that does not mean we are free to sin against it - for "SIN is transgression of the LAW"



Your "definition" of "under the law" differs from Paul in his Romans 6 statement.

You defined "under the law" as -- obedience.

Thus in the model you are describing to "Love God with all your heart" is to place yourself under the LAW - in the negative sense in which Romans 6 uses that phrase.

Here again we have an "instructive moment" we should pause here and reflect on what you are saying.

=======================================================

Repetition of error does not all of a sudden burst into truth.

Your grain of truth mixed with arsenic is still poison.

You have not pointed to any verse that gives a command for the NT believer to ignore the Sabbath or to keep week-day-1 as if it were "The Lord's Day" or a weekly observance at all.

Where is that verse DHK? Don't you need some actual "sola scriptura" to go with your traditions on this topic?


It is always instructive DHK, since you frequently take a position contrary to what the Bible actually says when it comes to certain topics.

Here again - we pause to consider what it is you have just said - and how it so fully contradicts the text.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Repetition of error does not all of a sudden burst into truth. Your grain of truth mixed with arsenic is still poison. You have not pointed to any verse that gives a command for the NT believer to keep the Sabbath. Where is that verse Bob?

It is the legalists' imperative there shall be Law to believe before he will believe. DHK, you haven't changed a bit.

Jesus said his House --Church-- shall be a House of Prayer for all People. Is that a Command DHK? Jesus' Command? A New Testament Covenant Command, DHK?
Is it or is it not?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No, the fourth commandment was never applicable to the NT believer. This is easily seen as one goes to other cultures and examines "the law written on the hearts of other men." The Sabbath is never one of them.

So DHK goes to those outside the Covenant of Grace, to the LOST, the GODLESS of whom Paul is speaking, for his authority on matters concerning the Law of God.

Which supersedes and or surpasses which in your opinion, DHK? Must the Christian go to the Gentile, the heathen, the Hindu, the Islam, to learn the difference between right and wrong in the eyes OF GOD!?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The only covenant in the NT that actually applies to the NT believer is that which the believer makes with Christ at the time of salvation.

DHK and GE do not believe the same covenant nor the same salvation. If the Covenant of God's Grace and Eternal Council whereby every redeemed is saved, were <<that which the believer makes with Christ>> and were a mere <<relationship with Christ ... within the believer>>, there's no hope for any --- whether Old Testament or New Testament <believer>.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is different in Gen 2:1-4 because there are not animal sacrifices and it is before all Jews were born.

Genesis 3:8-24. The Sword of God's Law was in and from the beginning. The Law then, was Christ as He is the Law, now—“in these last days God spake by the Son”.
.

 

[BobRyan]

I post this
==========

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2


"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

Then you quot the list of texts -- and post this -

Repetition of error does not all of a sudden burst into truth. Your grain of truth mixed with arsenic is still poison. .

Again...

food for thought. we should all stop and reflect on your position at that point.

 

[BobRyan]

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

WE are not under the condemnation of the LAW but as the very chapter that speaks to this point says - that does not mean we are free to sin against it - for "SIN is transgression of the LAW"

And what is the much-anticipated response to that "sola scriptura" statement?

Take heed in the heretical position that you post.

More on Romans 6 and Col 2 later...

DHK said: ↑
He fulfilled the law.

True
- the Law to "love God with all your heart" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Honor your parents" perfectly fulfilled by Christ - yet we have Eph 6:2 reminding us not to break it. Because it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-binding UNIT of TEN


"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

WE are not under the condemnation of the LAW but as the very chapter that speaks to this point says - that does not mean we are free to sin against it - for "SIN is transgression of the LAW"

But now you want to place yourself under the law

Your "definition" of "under the law" differs from Paul in his Romans 6 statement.

You defined "under the law" as -- obedience.

Thus in the model you are describing to "Love God with all your heart" is to place yourself under the LAW - in the negative sense in which Romans 6 uses that phrase.

Here again we have an "instructive moment" we should pause here and reflect on what you are saying.

==============

It is true that law is used in more than one way in the Bible. However, when speaking of the Sabbath, the Sabbath is part of Israel's law or covenant law that does not apply to us.

"The house of Israel and the house of Judah" --- "New Covenant".

And in Gen 2:1-3 Sabbath MADE for mankind Mark 2:27 - Ex 20:11 in Eden.
Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL mankind come before Me to worship"

And are literal Jews part of mankind?

This is made very clear in Exodus 31:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
-

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2

Now wonder gentiles are attending worship service "Sabbath after Sabbath" Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4 and also "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:1-6. Isaiah 56:1-8

 

[DHK]

NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2


"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

You still have the philosophy that the repetition of error will someday become truth??
Who has deceived you that you should believe this lie. I have already told you the meaning of these verses, and there is not one verse here that gives a command for the NT believer to keep the Sabbath Day; not one verse!

For now - let us pause and consider that your wild speculation so far so utterly contradicts the texts just quoted --sorry but I am going to have to stick with the Bible on this.

Here is an instructive moment I think for us all - when it comes to this subject.

Two pages ago, more than 30 posts back, before 10:00 am, yesterday, I made a post which you have quoted from about half a dozen times in these two pages. Your answer each time has been similar or the same to that which you posted above. But you have been very deceitful about it. Let's examine it. In your last post you quoted me:

DHK said: ↑
The passage is irrelevant for it speaks to Israel not to believers in Christ. It is Israel that will keep the Sabbaths, not believers in Christ..

Not really a proper quote. If it were you would have the entire tag line with it to show where it came from. This is from post #133. We are now on post #140 unless someone posts before me, which is quite likely at the rate I am going. But your little quote is dishonest.
Here is the quote coming from the previous page at 9:42 am yesterday:

I pointed out to you that your arguments are logically fallacious once scripture is taken out of its context. The passage is irrelevant for it speaks to Israel not to believers in Christ. It is Israel that will keep the Sabbaths, not believers in Christ. It is Israel whose father is Jacob, not believers in Christ.
But you don't care about that; you don't care about the context of the passage. I pointed that out to you before I even answered any of your arguments. It would be a useless road to travel unless you would stop with taking scripture out context. This is not even worthy of debate.
Error repeated a thousand times is still error. One cannot wave their magical wand over it thinking that suddenly their error will become truth. It doesn't.
--You see Bob, the quote taken out of this passage is simply one of many illogical fallacies that you make in your debate tactics. I wasn't referring to any passage in particular, but the way you debate in general. You have quoted me from this paragraph numerous times out of its context.

It is called misrepresentation of another and it is completely dishonest of you in this debate.

The text says He found no fault "with the Law" -- rather "finding fault with THEM". Details matter.

And in Heb 8:6-10 we are told that the TEN Commandments are the words of CHRIST -
We are told that the LAW as known to Jeremiah - the moral LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers - would be "written on the mind and heart" under the NEW COVENANT.

Some Christians here - including myself claim to be NEW Covenant Christians - others will reject the NEW Covenant of course - since it is made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" -

For your sake I will quote from the Bible Knowledge Commentary, which puts it very well:

Heb.8:7
That there is a promise of a New Covenant the writer will shortly prove by quoting Jer_31:31-34. By doing so, he argued that such a promise demonstrates the inadequacy of the old one.
Heb.8:8ff
The promise of a New Covenant was made, the writer pointed out, in a passage where God found fault with the people. The Old Covenant failed because of the sinfulness of the nation, for which it had no remedy. The New Covenant, however, has such a remedy.
In the passage quoted, there is first the prediction that a New Covenant will be made (Heb_8:8) followed by a strong declaration that it will differ from the previous one (Heb_8:9). Then follows (Heb_8:10-12) a description of the superior accomplishments, or enablements, of the promised covenant. These are: (1) an inner inclination to obey (God will put His laws in their minds and write them on their hearts), (2) a firm relationship with God (I will be their God, and they will be My people), (3) the knowledge of God (they will all know Me), and (4) the forgiveness of sins (I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more). These are the “better promises” alluded to in Heb_8:6.
It is clear that all these benefits belong, in fact, to all the regenerate of every age since the Cross. Though the New Covenant is specifically focused on Israel (cf. house of Israel and “house of Judah” in Jer_31:31), it is clear that Christians of the present time also stand under its blessings (cf. Luk_22:20; 1Co_11:25; 2Co_3:6). This perception does not lead to an inappropriate confusion between Israel and the church. The New Covenant is God’s appointed vehicle for fulfilling the Abrahamic blessings to Israel. But the Abrahamic Covenant also promised universal blessing, so the New Covenant becomes as well God’s vehicle of salvation for believers since the Cross.

'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY

" Rom 2

Jews are Jews. This has nothing to do with you. You are not a Jew. Besides it says nothing of keeping the Sabbath.

True
- the Law to "love God with all your heart" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly fulfilled by Christ
-the Law to "Honor your parents" perfectly fulfilled by Christ - yet we have Eph 6:2 reminding us not to break it. Because it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-binding UNIT of TEN

The Sabbath was given to the Jews or Israel. Full Stop. End of story. Read Exodus 31.