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Featured Sola Scriptura: week-day-1 vs Bible Sabbath

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 30, 2016.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Acts 20 there is no "we meet every week-day-1 to break bread" rather - Acts 20 we are gathered on week-day-1 because Paul is leaving tomorrow.

    In 1 Cor 16 there is no "gather together for worship on week-day-1".

    Rather each one is to lay aside - by himself - savings on the first of the week so it is not spent during the week. no meeting, no worship service, no communion service mentioned at all.


    1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

    Galatians 5
    1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
    2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

    "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

    Not according to Paul in 1 Cor 7:19 where the moral law of God is upheld and circumcision is set aside as ceremonial.

    And not according to Paul in Eph 6:2 where the 'FIRST commandment with a promise" is ... 'Honor your father and mother" - which means the UNIT of the TEN commandments remains in the NT.

    And not according to your own Catechism and your own Dies Domini document. Both of which affirm all TEN of the TEN Commandments.


    True - yet He never says "The Son of man is LORD of week-day-1" -- only "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

    Part of that Acts 15 "solution" was that the gentiles were "hearing Moses preached every SABBATH in the Synagogues" just as we see them doing in Acts 13, Acts 17 and in "Every Sabbath" in Acts 18.




    Here's a point worth researching:
    ACTS 15

    21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

    Indeed - as we see applying to BOTH Gentiles AND Jews in Acts 13, Acts 17, and EVERY Sabbath in Acts 18.


    22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,

    Does not mention "Love God with all your heart" --
    Does not mention "Love your neighbor as yourself"

    Acts 15 IS not a downsizing of the Bible for gentiles.

    And these are points not just from the Bible in your case - but from your own CCC and your own Dies Domini.
     
    #101 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

    Are you keeping all 7 days as a day of rest and worship? no work? ever? "He who will not work - neither let him eat" -- you cannot bend Acts 2 to mean that Christians never work - never keep any day of the week as a day of rest and refrain from work. Yet at the feast of Pentecost in Acts 2 they did for a short time.

    Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- not "There is NOW a week-day-1 day of rest for the people of God"


    6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.


    5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

    Is this you making the argument that you don't "need no scripture saying week-day-1 is the Lord's Day - because it is -- and we don't need no scripture for it"????

    That is not "sola scriptura" anything.


    Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- not "There is NOW a week-day-1 day of rest for the people of God"

    And still that did not give you "there REMAINS therefore a week-day-1 day of rest" in the Bible -- we only have THAT - in the NT -- for the Sabbath.


    That Matt 11:28 was true before the cross - and after - it did not delete the Bible, the LAW of God - the Sabbath as even Moses and Elijah would have known when talking to Christ - before-the-cross in Matt 17.


    You keep circling back to "I don't need no scripture for week-day-1" - arguments.

    Those who reject sola scriptura on this subject - would agree with you.

    Col 2 is about the 'commandments of men' - it is not condemning, eating, drinking or Sabbath

    Matt 7 has the same "do not judge" point fully applicable before the cross - and it did not delete eating, drinking or the Sabbath then either.

    And this still leaves you in the "no text for week-day-1" box.

    NEW COVENANT: "This it the covenant I will make with the House of Israel and the House of Judah... I will write My LAWS on their mind and on their heart" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10.

    Rom 2 "For he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly ... but he is a Jew who is one INWARDLY"




    8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13


    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

    That much is true - it demonstrates the SDA tradition of placing the "Word of God" , the "Commandment of God" , "Moses said" -- ahead of the traditions of man.
     
    #102 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    BTW - two thumbs up for DHK and Utilyan - who are giving the "sola scriptura" option a shot - as requested in the OP. I may not agree with your arguments - but I do agree with trying to find that answer "sola scriptura"
     
    #103 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is another option for you ---

    When I say --

    1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

    2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

    3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

    4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

    5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

    6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

    7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.

    8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13

    ===========================================

    you could then say -- "we don't need any Bible support for keeping week-day-1 as a holy day, as a day of worship because it is not anything at all like the 4th Commandment, God's creation memorial day of rest and worship. Rather it is a man-made tradition for remembering the resurrection on week-day-1 , just attend church for an hour - if you feel like it. This has nothing at all to do with obeying the Law of God or the Commandments of God. It is just a custom and we need no text to defend this custom replacing/ending the Ten Commandments"

    Then all your posts could be about Bible evidence that God's Ten Commandments can be ignored. (And how Paul gets this wrong, and so also do all the NT writers get it wrong, and the RCC gets it wrong, and Dies Domini gets it wrong, and the Baptist Confession of Faith gets it wrong, and the Westminster Confession of Faith gets it wrong, and D.L. Moody gets it wrong so also C.H. Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul , Andy Stanley.etc you could show us how they all get it wrong.)
     
    #104 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I pointed out to you that your arguments are logically fallacious once scripture is taken out of its context. The passage is irrelevant for it speaks to Israel not to believers in Christ. It is Israel that will keep the Sabbaths, not believers in Christ. It is Israel whose father is Jacob, not believers in Christ.
    But you don't care about that; you don't care about the context of the passage. I pointed that out to you before I even answered any of your arguments. It would be a useless road to travel unless you would stop with taking scripture out context. This is not even worthy of debate.
    Error repeated a thousand times is still error. One cannot wave their magical wand over it thinking that suddenly their error will become truth. It doesn't.

    The house of Israel. You were never of the house of Israel. The verse doesn't apply to you. Why don't you bother with the context Bob? Did you even consider that maybe you didn't live 600 B.C. when Jeremiah spoke those words to the nation of Israel, not to you.


    Paul is addressing the Jews in this chapter, not you or other Gentile believers.
    Consider:
    Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
    --Are you called a Jew? Do you rest in the law (and not in Christ)? What tribe do you come from?
    --Follow from verse 17 to the rest of the chapter. Paul describes the Jew. The Jew who is one inwardly is a Jew such as Abraham or David. The Jew who is not a Jew, but only outwardly is one like Ahab or Jezebel. That is his point. It has nothing to do with you or Gentile believers. Again, you are not considering the context.
    Reformed pointed out this fallacy for you. You still don't get it.
    There is no verse using the word "trinity," yet you say you believe it. Why?
    The truths of the third commandment are stated more abundantly and even more strongly in the NT than they are in the OT. Just check Mat.12:36,37
    Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
    --That is one of scores of passages, and there are so many more. So you are simply resorting to an excuse.
    But there is no command to keep the Sabbath.

    Perhaps you don't understand my argument. I don't believe it is a "command" to meet on Sunday. I don't believe as others. Here is the command that is given us.

    Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    1. Do not forsake to assemble together. This is the primary command. It is not the day; the day can be any day as far as I am concerned. Just do it, and do it regularly (as in once a week at the very minimum.)
    2. The manner of some is means as the manner of the different churches are. Take your cue from other churches. It is the local church that decides. There is no such thing as a denomination in the NT.
    3. The purpose for gathering (primary purpose), is for exhortation of one another, that is it is for the believer, not for evangelism. Evangelism is done outside the church. The church is for the edification and exhortation of the believer. No specific day is mentioned here. They were under persecution and met when they could.
    Paul was a Jew and had the opportunity to go where the Jews met. They met on Saturdays in their respective synagogues. It is doubtful I would have any welcome or opportunity to preach in such a place. Use common sense here. This is not an argument to meet on the Sabbath. Gentiles were welcome in the outer part of the synagogue. If you think you have the opportunity to preach in your local synagogue, then the more power to you. That is what Paul was doing. It is not a precedent or command to keep the Sabbath.

    They kept it out of disobedience. They were keeping the law. The law was now nailed to the cross.
     
    #105 DHK, May 3, 2016
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    BobRyan said:↑

    1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

    DHK: #98Context Bob! Context!
    Isaiah 58:13If thouturn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; andcall the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
    14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; andI will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father:for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
    --Is Jacob your father Bob? He had 12 sons. Each one became the head of a tribe. Which tribe do you belong to? Can you prove that lineage?
    Why do you continue to ignore context? This verse has nothing to do with us.
    There is no verse that commands the NT Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath,and after all these years you have never provided one.

    GE:

    Isaiah 58:14“Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; andI will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father:for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”

    “the mouth of the LORD hath spoken”—once for all.

    “the mouth of the LORD hath spoken” to, “Thee”—Jesus Christ “the Son of Man”, “thy Maker thine Husband the LORD of hosts is his Name and thy REDEEMER the Holy One of Israel the God of the whole earth shall He be called. … With EVERLASTING kindness will I have mercy on THEE, saith the LORD the Redeemer. … My kindness shall not depart from Thee neither shall the Covenant of My Peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on THEE, o Thou Afflicted, tossed with tempest, not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fait colours and lay thy foundations with sapphires. … All thy children shall be taught of the LORD and great shall be the Peace of they children. …

    THIS IS THE HERITAGE OF THE SERVANTS OF THE LORD AND THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS : IT IS OF ME, SAITH THE LORD. Ho every one that thirsteth [it is Jesus Christ speaking!] come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. … I will make an EVERLASTING COVENANT with you, show you even the SURE MERCIES OF DAVID—Jesus Christ. Behold, I have given Him for Winess to the People, Leader—Master, Teacher, Lord—Jesus Christ—Commander to the People (of God).


    THIS IS THE HERITAGE OF THE SERVANTS OF THE LORD AND THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS : IT IS OF ME, SAITH THE LORD.


    Behold, Thou shalt call a nation Thou knowest not, and nations that knew Thee not shall run unto Thee because of the LORD thy God the Holy One of Israel—for He hath glorified Thee.Seek ye the LORD while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near. (Emmanuel, God with us.) … So shall MY WORD be that goeth forth out of My Mouth : it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE—it shall be to THE LORD FOR A NAME, for an everlasting sign that shall NOT BE CUT OFF. … For My SALVATION is near to come and My RIGHTEOUSNESS is near to be revealed. [—THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS—] Blessed is the MAN … THE SON OF MAN—Jesus Christ—that doeth this, that layeth hold on My RIGHTEOUSNESS, My SALVATION, keeping the Sabbath from it being polluted—whose hand doeth no evil whatsoever.

    … the son of the stranger … also the son of the stranger … the eunuch … the outcasts … every one … that join themselves TO THE LORD to serve HIM and to love THE NAME OF THE LORD to be HIS servants, that keepeth the Sabbath … and take hold of MY COVENANT will I gather TO HIM FOR MINE HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED AN HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL PEOPLE.” Said Jesus Christ!


    THIS IS THE HERITAGE OF THE SERVANTS OF THE LORD AND THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS : IT IS OF ME, SAITH THE LORD.


    Now we can read Ephesians 1:18, “… that ye may know WHAT is the hope of his calling and WHAT the riches of the glory of HIS INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS.”

    It is the word of the prophet Isaiah in chapters 54-58 FULFILLED IN AND BY AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST to the redemption through the Love and Grace of God of everyone of His Own. God’s is the all blessings in Jesus Christ encompassing Covenant of Grace; as it includes every redeemed in Christ’s Heritage, it includes every blessing in Christ’s Inheritance.


    But DHK claims Christ’s inheritance is meagre and lean, and includes the nation of Israel after the flesh only.
     
    #106 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Since when am I the one who should be <<thinking about making an actual Bible argument for week-day-1>>!?

    Ridiculous! It is you, BobRyan and SDA Mrs White who Sola SOP make Jesus the Instituter of <<Week-day-1>>. You're a sad and sorry quip, BobRyan.
     
    #107 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Christ rose on Sunday morning.....

    FALSE!
    "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" --WHY-- because "JESUS GAVE THEM REST ... HE HAVING ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN."
    Because "the LORD the Seventh Day RESTED and REVIVED" He is "LORD OF THE SABBATH DAY".

    Only because "THE LORD IS A MAN OF WAR ... HE TRIUMPHED GLORIOUSLY, MIGHTILY" is He "LORD"! --"LORD of the Sabbath Day", "DAY" of Lordly Triumph and Victory. "Therefore the day The Seventh Day is Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD."
     
    #108 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Yes. Christ is our Rest ---"the rest-of-God" [katapausis tou Theou]; He is not "a Sabbath Day's-rest [sabbatismos] remaining obligatory [apoleipetai] for the People of God" (Christians) ---that is "the Seventh Day God thus concerning spake ... in times past through the prophets ... and ... in these last days by the Son : ... And God the day The Seventh Day from all his works RESTED."
     
    #109 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Utterly abrasive! What gives you the audacity to insert, <<began>>--<<Paul began talking to them>>?!


    "On the First Day of the week we were assembling together STILL after having been assembling together BEFORE (Perfect Participle 'sunehgmenohn') for the to Break Bread of us (Infinitive of Noun Force ‘hehmohn klasai arton’) Paul STILL addressing (Imperfect Finite Verb ‘dielegeto’) them because he shortly in the morning was to depart. (mellohn eksienai tehi epaurion’)
     
    #110 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
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  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    SDA Sola Sop Tradition.
    No Scripture.
     
    #111 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    When Christ is become the Word of God for a person, God's Ten Commandments cannot be more to him than Bible evidence for, witness to and reminder of Christ in his Suffering of Death and Resurrection of Life, as it should ---nothing more.
     
    #112 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Yes, after verse 20 it is about the 'commandments of men'. Nothing of the kind from verse 1 to verse 19(20).
     
    #113 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 3, 2016
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    My fault guys. I tend to quote between NASB and King James. But im down with original Greek anyday.


    It is interesting too.

    Remember Jewish time. Their day does not start with UNITED STATES 12:00AM. Ante Meridiem

    The NIGHT BEFORE is also SUNDAY! Keep this in mind.


    So if you think they just had a breaking break solemn Sabbath dinner. The day that follows is STILL the Sabbath.

    You said:
    "In Acts 20 there is no "we meet every week-day-1 to break bread" rather - Acts 20 we are gathered on week-day-1 because Paul is leaving tomorrow."

    They were gathered to break bread appear "independently" in the Greek.

    I will provide link to the greek. -> http://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-7.htm

    So lets see the "broken English"

    Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων συνηγμένων ἡμῶν κλάσαι ἄρτον ὁ

    in moreover the first[day] of the week, having come together we to break bread THE(the Bread)


    The "moreover" could suggest the extra new thing the "special of the week."

    The typical SUNDAY is they come together to break THE BREAD.

    But they get a special sermon from Paul. That lasted into MIDNIGHT. What day is it midnight? MONDAY night.

    Paul talk FOR SO LONG a guy fell asleep and fell out the widow and died! How many sermons like that you ever got? Catholic church.........ALL THE TIME!

    Imagine you are Paul, You need to talk to your whole congregation. Get everyone together. If Sabbath was the worship day that would have been the time to do it. And then if you need to talk to them you do, and if its a lot then you literally give them "the sermon".
     
    #114 utilyan, May 3, 2016
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I'm going to have to research, but I don't remember anyone before Moses having to keep Sabbath or being naturally convicted to do it.

    Wasn't there like some exodus free from slavery connection? Kinda like Passover Like you had to stay in your house ect. ect?
     
    #115 utilyan, May 3, 2016
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    you did make that accusation - that part of your statement is certainly true. How nice it would be if you could actually prove it.

    NEW COVENANT - "THIS is the Covenant I WILL make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH ... I will write MY LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10

    'For he is NOT a JEW that is one OUTWARDLY ... but he is a JEW who is one INWARDLY" Rom 2


    "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

    "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

    I will answer the rest of your post in a later post.

    For now - let us pause and consider that your wild speculation so far so utterly contradicts the texts just quoted --sorry but I am going to have to stick with the Bible on this.

    Here is an instructive moment I think for us all - when it comes to this subject.
     
    #116 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Your own church says that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) are not at all restricted to "just Jews" -- you know that right?

    They seem to have a number of reasons -- here are two.

    Gen 26:5 "5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

    "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
     
    #117 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    New Covenant "I will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah... I will write my LAWS on their mind and on their heart" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10. "House of who???"

    Rom 2 "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

    There are a number of "New Covenant Christians" on this board - I am one of them. But some will be at war against the New Covenant - claiming it is "just for Jews" -- hard to believe?

    Here your wild speculation leads you to argue that Jer 31:31-33 should not be read by gentiles as if Paul was lying in 2 Tim 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for DOCTRINE"

    And as if we did not read Heb 8:6-10 that quotes Jer 31:31-33 VERBATIM and applies it to all the saints.

    What a horrific contradiction to the text of scripture in that wild speculation we see in your post.


    You seem to be arguing that God is either lying to Jews - in Romans 2 or else is coming up with another Gospel just-for-Jews that does not deal with the subject of gentiles at all when He says -

    Rom 2
    26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

    Here again your wild speculation so utterly contradicts the text of Romans 2 that it would be well for all of us to pause and look at that for a moment.


    So far your bold contradiction of the text is pretty hard for the objective unbiased reader to ignore.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #118 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is no verse in the NT that commands Gentiles to keep the 3rd commandment - it is never even quoted - saying "do not take the name of the Lord Thy God in vain" - but there is ALSO no "fluff rule" in the Bible about "Deleting whatever is not repeated" -- hmmm.. "Sola scriptura matters".

    Does there have to be? There is the example given in Acts 20:7 and in 1Cor.16.
    Neither of those texts say "keep week-day-1 as a day of worship" --

    None of them say "we meet weekly on week-day-1"

    None of them say "our term Sabbath now applies to week-day-1"

    None of the texts you give say "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy".

    None of the texts you give say "we met week-day-1 after week-day-1 for worship".

    My argument is not "Yes - they might on occasion meet on Tuesday but the weekly day of rest was Sabbath - so they would never ever meet on week-day-1 not even once"

    we have the example of Paul going into the synagogues on the Sabbath because that is when both GENTILES and Jews were meeting of those people in the town who accepted the Bible and had chosen to worship the God of the Bible.

    Even as Jews objected - they kept meeting with GENTILES and Jews not only "Sabbath after Sabbath" but as Acts 18 says "EVERY Sabbath".

    No such "EVERY week-day-1" meeting for worship and Bible study - stated at all - in either the OT or the NT.


    Catholics say we believe it because the Catholics tell us to believe it.
    But in fact it is in the Bible "baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" Matt 28

    And of course the Sabbath Commandment IS in the Bible - very explicitly telling us to worship Lev 23:1-4 and to rest Ex 20:8-11 and that it is MADE for mankind Mark 2:27 and that ALL mankind is to come before God and worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" Is 66:23.

    Not at all "hard to find in the Bible".

    The point remains -- and is irrefutable.

    ALL of the TEN Commandments are quoted in part in the NT -- EXCEPT "7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."

    That command is never quoted in full OR in part in the NT.

    But the Sabbath Commandment IS not only referenced "according to the Commandment" but also as "The Sabbath" and also as "EVERY SABBATH" in Acts 18 - and also the very language is quoted verbatim in Rev 14:7 and in Acts 17 and ..

    Still this is not an argument against the 3rd commandment - for it would be a "fluff rule" to speculate that since it is not repeated it should be deleted from the Commandments of God.

    As I am sure we all know by now.

    If that is to be accepted as a quote of the 3rd commandment - then "what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" is along with "worship Him who MADE the HEAVEN and the Earth the seas and the springs of water.... the saints KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:7-12

    Ex 20:11
    11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
     
    #119 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is another option for you ---

    When I say --

    1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

    2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

    3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

    4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

    5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

    6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

    7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.

    8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13

    --------------------------------------------------

    you could then say -- "we don't need any Bible support for keeping week-day-1 as a holy day, as a day of worship because it is not anything at all like the 4th Commandment, God's creation memorial day of rest and worship. Rather it is a man-made tradition for remembering the resurrection on week-day-1 , just attend church for an hour - if you feel like it. This has nothing at all to do with obeying the Law of God or the Commandments of God. It is just a custom and we need no text to defend this custom replacing/ending the Ten Commandments"

    Then all your posts could be about Bible evidence that God's Ten Commandments can be ignored. (And how Paul gets this wrong, and so also do all the NT writers get it wrong, and the RCC gets it wrong, and Dies Domini gets it wrong, and the Baptist Confession of Faith gets it wrong, and the Westminster Confession of Faith gets it wrong, and D.L. Moody gets it wrong so also C.H. Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul , Andy Stanley.etc you could show us how they all get it wrong.)

    ========================================

    I see - so then meeting on Sabbath -- the Bible Sabbath -- the 7th day as is in God's Commandment - does not bother you at all -- since you reduction of the Commandment goes down to " 1. Do not forsake to assemble together. This is the primary command."

    In which case all you need to do is attack the Ten Commandments and provide some form of Bible support that all that remains of them is "do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together'

    Assembly that we see "EVERY SABBATH" in Acts 18.

    Sadly for that idea - Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 both point to GENTILES being preached to in those "EVERY SABBATH" meetings.

    And not once do we find Paul saying "hey gentiles please join us TOMORROW on week-day-1 for more Gospel sermons " at any of those 'EVERY SABBATH" Gospel preaching events seen with gentiles in Acts 18.

    No ... not once.

    Which of course would be fine with you - since the only command is "not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together" -- I suppose.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #120 BobRyan, May 3, 2016
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