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Sola Scriptura: week-day-1 vs Bible Sabbath
- Thread starter BobRyan
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Since GE is deperate to discuss anything BUT THE BIBLE - we will indulge for a post or two -- GE's obsession.
Desire of Ages -- Commentary on the Life of Christ
The chapter: "In Joseph's Tomb"
In the beginning the Father and the Son had rested upon the Sabbath after Their work of creation. When “the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them” (Genesis 2:1), the Creator and all heavenly beings rejoiced in contemplation of the glorious scene. “The morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” Job 38:7. Now Jesus rested from the work of redemption; and though there was grief among those who loved Him on earth, yet there was joy in heaven. Glorious to the eyes of heavenly beings was the promise of the future. A restored creation, a redeemed race, that having conquered sin could never fall,—this, the result to flow from Christ’s completed work, God and angels saw. With this scene the day upon which Jesus rested is forever linked. For “His work is perfect;” and “whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever.” Deuteronomy 32:4; Ecclesiastes 3:14. When there shall be a “restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21), the creation Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at rest in Joseph’s tomb, will still be a day of rest and rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in praise, as “from one Sabbath to another” (Isaiah 66:23) the nations of the saved shall bow in joyful worship to God and the Lamb. {DA 769.2}
Desire of Ages -- Commentary on the Life of Christ
The chapter: "In Joseph's Tomb"
In the beginning the Father and the Son had rested upon the Sabbath after Their work of creation. When “the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them” (Genesis 2:1), the Creator and all heavenly beings rejoiced in contemplation of the glorious scene. “The morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” Job 38:7. Now Jesus rested from the work of redemption; and though there was grief among those who loved Him on earth, yet there was joy in heaven. Glorious to the eyes of heavenly beings was the promise of the future. A restored creation, a redeemed race, that having conquered sin could never fall,—this, the result to flow from Christ’s completed work, God and angels saw. With this scene the day upon which Jesus rested is forever linked. For “His work is perfect;” and “whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever.” Deuteronomy 32:4; Ecclesiastes 3:14. When there shall be a “restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21), the creation Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at rest in Joseph’s tomb, will still be a day of rest and rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in praise, as “from one Sabbath to another” (Isaiah 66:23) the nations of the saved shall bow in joyful worship to God and the Lamb. {DA 769.2}
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Need to update -- the OP
=========================================
Let's evaluate that claim "sola scriptura" --
1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)
2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.
3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.
4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.
5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.
6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.
7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.
8. There is not ONE text in OT or NT saying "week-day-1 is now the Sabbath" or "week-day-1 is the Sabbath" or "week-day-1 is the NEW Sabbath" but we do have Ex 20:8-11 "The Seventh-day IS the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God"
===========
Good news my sola-scriptura friends.
This might be an indication that this list - could get even longer in the future - (It is all good news).
=========================================
Let's evaluate that claim "sola scriptura" --
1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)
2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.
3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.
4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.
5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.
6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.
7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.
8. There is not ONE text in OT or NT saying "week-day-1 is now the Sabbath" or "week-day-1 is the Sabbath" or "week-day-1 is the NEW Sabbath" but we do have Ex 20:8-11 "The Seventh-day IS the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God"
===========
Good news my sola-scriptura friends.
This might be an indication that this list - could get even longer in the future - (It is all good news).
Please supply with quote "~the creation memorial~".
It is a SDA Whiteism without "~Bible support~".
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
G.E. so far from the Bible - to ask for where in the Bible does God state the Sabbath is a memorial of creation. How sad.
Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. ...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Remember -- it is a memorial of the Gen 2:1-3 7 day creation week fact.
Gen 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made
memorial keeps in memory that past event.
1 cor 11
25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
Fraud! SDA fraud! Not the first time!
Where BobRyan has these “~…~” dots, there is written, “9 Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work: 10 BUT the Seventh Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy GOD: in it, thou, shalt not do any work ... FOR: In six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, BUT (and) rested the Seventh Day: wherefore, the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day and hallowed it.”
BobRyan wrote: “~therefore~” in red, bold and underlined. And he omitted verses 9 and 10, thus, coupling directly unrelated things. He joins together the reason word, “~therefore~”, with “~For in six days the Lord made~”. BobRyan says, God said, man must “RemembertheSabbath therefore / wherefore= because =God made / created in six days~”. SDA BobRyan TWISTS, CORRUPTS, INSULTS God Word which says in truth right the opposite!
What is done in the Fourth Commandment is to contrast what MAN, MUST, do “in SIX days”, and what GOD, DID do “the Seventh Day”, namely, “God the Seventh Day RESTED”.
The word for the REASON WHY God blessed and hallowed and rested the Seventh Day, was “therefore—wherefore—BECAUSE God RESTED”. And the REASON WHY man had to “remember the Sabbath” and rest on it, was “therefore—because—wherefore—God RESTED” : “... because God RESTED the day The Seventh Day Sabbath”; and not because man had to work six days or because God in six days created everything. Man has to “remember the Sabbath because God rested on it, not because God created on it.
God created nothing on the Seventh Day. But God “finished ALL his works on the Seventh Day”. He in fact finished “the all-exceeding great work of his mighty power which God WORKED, RESURRECTING CHRIST FROM THE DEAD.” God rested on the Seventh Day from his WORK on the Seventh Day to RAISE Christ from the dead.
God’s work on the Seventh Day was not to create any worlds or whatever, but to WORK the Salvation of the man who sinned and fell from grace. Redemption was God’s work—his only work—on and of the Seventh Day Sabbath, a work of rest all in all belonging to the LORD GOD IN JESUS CHRIST in Resurrection from the dead. That’s why man must “remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.”
The Sabbath is the POST-CREATION work of God of SAVING his creation. It is not a “~creation memorial~”; it is a Salvation Memorial. “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, FOR REASON THAT the Lord … rested on the Seventh Day: therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. ...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
almost true -- you have vs 11 in there - and so do I - so not in the ellipsis .
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. ...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
almost true -- you have vs 11 in there - and so do I - so not in the ellipsis .
The Fourth Commandment tells “you / man must work six days because / for God worked six days; and God rested the Sabbath the Seventh Day wherefore / therefore man must rest the Sabbath.” THIS, is written, exactly. Which of course then makes of the Sabbath a ‘memorial’, but a memorial not of God’s six day’s creation / creating, but of God’s Seventh Day’s, Rest / resting. All very well...
Until come along the SDA and Bob Ryan who say No, it makes the Sabbath the “~Memorial~” of the creation! So they rob the Sabbath of its Divine, singular, unique, distinguishing distinguished and exclusive honour of being “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD’S ... REST” which was why God “hallowed” and “blessed” it—“set it apart”—from the six days that He “worked” on at creation.
That was God’s work of the Sabbath and Seventh Day of the week—God’s WORD which He “SPAKE: thus, concerning the Seventh Day”.
Read how eloquently wrote Mrs White THIS VERY TRUTH, “~When there shall be a "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21), the creation Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at rest in Joseph's tomb, will still be a day of rest and rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in praise, as "from one Sabbath to another" (Isa. 66:23) the nations of the saved shall bow in joyful worship to God and the Lamb.~”
Now read what the same person and the same SDA church and the same member, Bob Ryan, also declare and defend with every means at their disposal, for the First Day of the week ... except Sola Scriptura,
“~What a day is this to the world!While the Saviour was in God's presence, receiving gifts for His church, the disciples thought upon His empty tomb, and mourned and wept. The day that was a day of rejoicing to all heaven was to the disciples a day of uncertainty, confusion, and perplexity.~” Flabbergasting!
… and when you ask them “~for where in the Bible does God state the Sabbath is a memorial of creation~”, it is “~so sad … so far from the Bible - … How sad~”
Until come along the SDA and Bob Ryan who say No, it makes the Sabbath the “~Memorial~” of the creation! So they rob the Sabbath of its Divine, singular, unique, distinguishing distinguished and exclusive honour of being “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD’S ... REST” which was why God “hallowed” and “blessed” it—“set it apart”—from the six days that He “worked” on at creation.
That was God’s work of the Sabbath and Seventh Day of the week—God’s WORD which He “SPAKE: thus, concerning the Seventh Day”.
Read how eloquently wrote Mrs White THIS VERY TRUTH, “~When there shall be a "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21), the creation Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at rest in Joseph's tomb, will still be a day of rest and rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in praise, as "from one Sabbath to another" (Isa. 66:23) the nations of the saved shall bow in joyful worship to God and the Lamb.~”
Now read what the same person and the same SDA church and the same member, Bob Ryan, also declare and defend with every means at their disposal, for the First Day of the week ... except Sola Scriptura,
“~What a day is this to the world!While the Saviour was in God's presence, receiving gifts for His church, the disciples thought upon His empty tomb, and mourned and wept. The day that was a day of rejoicing to all heaven was to the disciples a day of uncertainty, confusion, and perplexity.~” Flabbergasting!
… and when you ask them “~for where in the Bible does God state the Sabbath is a memorial of creation~”, it is “~so sad … so far from the Bible - … How sad~”
omitted verses 9 and 10 : THEREBY joining together what God separated with what God did not separate --- fraud!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hint: -- this is the OP -- the actual "subject" of this thread.
======================================
Many on this board have demonstrated that they can have a sola scriptura discussion and do not limit themselves to "sola ad hominem" or "sola name-calling"... And that is an important fact for all to agree upon as this thread will proceed "sola scriptura" regardless of anyone's preference or bias on the subject.
The model will be "scripture please".
================================
Let's evaluate that claim "sola scriptura" --
1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)
2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.
3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.
4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.
5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.
6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.
7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.
8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.
============================= btw -
The elders consisting of scribes and pharisees are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)
======================================
Many on this board have demonstrated that they can have a sola scriptura discussion and do not limit themselves to "sola ad hominem" or "sola name-calling"... And that is an important fact for all to agree upon as this thread will proceed "sola scriptura" regardless of anyone's preference or bias on the subject.
The model will be "scripture please".
================================
Let's evaluate that claim "sola scriptura" --
1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)
2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.
3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.
4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.
5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.
6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.
7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.
8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.
============================= btw -
The elders consisting of scribes and pharisees are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)
They preach but they do not practice, yes!
How to keep the Sabbath.
STEP 1. You must get circumcised. If you are not, you broke it.
JOHN 7
22“For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?
a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken
STEP 1. You must get circumcised. If you are not, you broke it.
JOHN 7
22“For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?
a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken
Fraud! Where is the word "If... "23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?"
23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken", SAID JESUS, then how much greater is God's grace in that Jesus, "made man entirely whole / well on the Sabbath"---which is far better than be made a son of Abraham through circumcision whether on the Sabbath or on another day---it makes no difference.
But no people like you are in bondage so you can't escape the Law, not even its language.
Fraud! Where is the word "If... "23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?"
23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken", SAID JESUS, then how much greater is God's grace in that Jesus, "made man entirely whole / well on the Sabbath"---which is far better than be made a son of Abraham through circumcision whether on the Sabbath or on another day---it makes no difference.
To be made entirely whole by Jesus means to be given eternal life through Him; To be circumcised means to receive sonship of mortal Abraham through the sign of death of mortal man.
But no; people like you are in bondage so you can't escape the Law, not even its language.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Is that your own idea?
---
Dies Domini is a papal encyclical on the subject of Sunday and how it is regarded by tradition to be a holy day rooted in the 10 commandments as a continuation of the 4th commandment
(numbered 3 by Roman Catholics Dies Domini, John Paul II, 5 July 1998 - Apostolic Letter - link
========================== Dies Domini begin
Dies Domini pt 11
"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".
Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.
Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."
=============================== Dies Domini ... end quote
The quote I gave from Dies Domini is fully consistent with the examples I gave from the Catholic Catechism - at least that is what we appear to have in the details of those quotes.
No one has an example of Dies Domini or the CCC objecting to the 7 points listed in the OP. No not one.
I offer a perfect example to test the points -- in quotes from the CCC.
I say again that 6 of the 7 points appear here.
Secondary source for the Catechism: This is a link -Catholic Catechism Section Two Ten Comm
[2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.
2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.
2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26
2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This might get G.E. thinking about making an actual Bible argument for week-day-1.
For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -
The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 the following:
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".
page 243
"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"
==================================== begin expanded quote
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243
we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day that was the law as God gave it ... 'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident ..
The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...
nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday. That is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -
The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 the following:
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".
page 243
"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"
==================================== begin expanded quote
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243
we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day that was the law as God gave it ... 'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident ..
The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...
nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday. That is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
Of course Bob. Five pages into this thread now, and the OP is a quote from me, though this is the first time I have seen it. It was posted over a month ago too wasn't it?
I have given you plenty of scripture. For the most part you either ignore it, dismiss it, rationalize it, take it out of its context, or most of all, ignore the context it is in, such as Isaiah 58.
Can't wait.
Context Bob! Context!
Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
--Is Jacob your father Bob? He had 12 sons. Each one became the head of a tribe. Which tribe do you belong to? Can you prove that lineage?
Why do you continue to ignore context? This verse has nothing to do with us.
There is no verse that commands the NT Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath, and after all these years you have never provided one.
Does there have to be? There is the example given in Acts 20:7 and in 1Cor.16.
Other than that we have the example of Paul going into the synagogues on the Sabbath because that is when and where the Jews met. He also had a Jewish background. Do you? What tribe? Do you also go into the synagogues and preach to the Jews on the Sabbath? If not, you have no reason to meet on the sabbath do you? There is no command to meet on the Sabbath, not for a born again believer.
There is the example of the apostles. There is also the example that they met daily in Acts chapter two. Are you willing to do that? Probably not. But there certainly is not command in the NT to meet on the Sabbath, and you can't find one, can you?
Context Bob! Context!
Those verses say nothing about the NT believer TODAY worshiping on the Sabbath, neither do they give a command for the NT believer to worship on the Sabbath. Prove that they do; don't simply quote a verse without context. That is proof-texting and does not prove or demonstrate any thing.
And what does that prove? Please tell! He is Lord over the mountains, the rivers, all of his creation, even the unsaved. He is Lord over all!
Tell me Bob, What things or persons is Christ NOT Lord of?
You misunderstand the scripture. That passage is speaking of God's people.
For those that belong to God Christ is our rest. God's people have found rest in Christ, and have entered into His rest even as He has invited us:
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
--And so he has. I have already entered into his rest and enjoy it very much. I don't need a day, which the Sabbath Day is, and is simply a shadow of the real thing, that is Christ, who came and fulfilled the shadow that was. (Col.2:16,17)
You keep repeating yourself. You should have learned by discussing things with the RCC by now, that error repeated often enough still does not become truth. It will always remain error. So why keep repeating it.
Ex.20:8 doesn't change your error as the fourth command was given to the Jews.
Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
--Even if quoted within the context of the Ten Commandments it still remains a perpetual covenant between Jehovah and Israel and her generations forever. It is not given in the NT, and is never a command given to the Gentile believers. Don't ignore ALL the Word of God.
So why do you ignore the Word of God Bod?
Why do you ignore Exodus 31:12-18--this entire passage? Read it. Understand it.
A good passage. It demonstrates the SDA's tradition of holding onto an OT tradition in preference to what the Bible teaches about grace. Paul teaches very distinct truths about law and grace. The SDA's have decided to put themselves under grace. There is no command for NT believers to keep the Sabbath, and Bob has failed to give even one verse.
Acts 20
7On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
1 Corinthians 16
1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.
2 Corinthians 9
12For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
Taking collections on the first day. Collections is also "ministry of this service".
Galatians 5
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
The previous post I put is again to explain the importance of circumcision if you are going to keep Sabbath. All Christians keep Sabbath through Jesus. The Mosaic Sabbath was a 'mere shadow' of something greater which is the TRUE REST found in Jesus Christ.
Matthew 28
1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
Mark 16:9
9[Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
Keep in mind the Jewish days start with the nights. So Sunday morning isn't the beginning of Sunday, the night before SUNDAY NIGHT. So when they talk about stuff happening on Sunday morning that's well way into Sunday.
Christ rose on Sunday morning......Not only did he KEEP Sunday holy, But there just isn't any other worship I could offer that can top beating Death. His resurrection has phenomenally broke any idea of worship or glory to be attributed on any other day.
I can pray pretty impressively might even make a tear come to the eye....... And it ain't nothing next to Jesus Risen, He automatically made that day the best day.
You know a 5-year old he might not understand why your hooting' and hollering' winning a lotto ticket.
Acts 15 we see the a convention practically on whether Gentiles need to live as Jews. Jews most definitely had to keep Sabbath.
Here's a point worth researching:
ACTS 15
21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
Matter of factly wouldn't all Christians KNOW scripture is read every Sabbath!?
The authors of ACTS would not have a bible WITH ACTS. They also would be hitting up a lot of MOSES.
Why mention "church" after "synagogues"? Why didn't they crack open scripture to resolved this?
Notice the attitude is "well we better teach the gentiles about idols and stuff." Explain to them that Jews Read scripture on Sabbath. This ain't to force them to be Jews, but to put up with them. They already said no to circumcisions.
Why explain Jews read scripture on Sabbath? Doesn't everyone read scripture on Sabbath?
The apostles should have said, Thank you ,James captain obvious.
We've been reading scripture on Sabbath with the Gentiles since forever.
Heres the thing guys. The gentiles don't know nothing bout Moses. They weren't "in scripture" as much as the Jews.
I'm looking at even hesitation even to just give gentiles scripture of Moses.
Had the gentile Christians been brought up with Sabbath+scriptures this whole thing would be resolved differently.
There would have been no surprising point for James to explain Sabbath+scriptures, He's about to tell folks who worked the holy spirit....by the way don't worship idols. Let that one sink in for a minute.
7On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
1 Corinthians 16
1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.
2 Corinthians 9
12For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
Taking collections on the first day. Collections is also "ministry of this service".
Galatians 5
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
The previous post I put is again to explain the importance of circumcision if you are going to keep Sabbath. All Christians keep Sabbath through Jesus. The Mosaic Sabbath was a 'mere shadow' of something greater which is the TRUE REST found in Jesus Christ.
Matthew 28
1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
Mark 16:9
9[Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
Keep in mind the Jewish days start with the nights. So Sunday morning isn't the beginning of Sunday, the night before SUNDAY NIGHT. So when they talk about stuff happening on Sunday morning that's well way into Sunday.
Christ rose on Sunday morning......Not only did he KEEP Sunday holy, But there just isn't any other worship I could offer that can top beating Death. His resurrection has phenomenally broke any idea of worship or glory to be attributed on any other day.
I can pray pretty impressively might even make a tear come to the eye....... And it ain't nothing next to Jesus Risen, He automatically made that day the best day.
You know a 5-year old he might not understand why your hooting' and hollering' winning a lotto ticket.
Acts 15 we see the a convention practically on whether Gentiles need to live as Jews. Jews most definitely had to keep Sabbath.
Here's a point worth researching:
ACTS 15
21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
Matter of factly wouldn't all Christians KNOW scripture is read every Sabbath!?
The authors of ACTS would not have a bible WITH ACTS. They also would be hitting up a lot of MOSES.
Why mention "church" after "synagogues"? Why didn't they crack open scripture to resolved this?
Notice the attitude is "well we better teach the gentiles about idols and stuff." Explain to them that Jews Read scripture on Sabbath. This ain't to force them to be Jews, but to put up with them. They already said no to circumcisions.
Why explain Jews read scripture on Sabbath? Doesn't everyone read scripture on Sabbath?
The apostles should have said, Thank you ,James captain obvious.
We've been reading scripture on Sabbath with the Gentiles since forever.
Heres the thing guys. The gentiles don't know nothing bout Moses. They weren't "in scripture" as much as the Jews.
I'm looking at even hesitation even to just give gentiles scripture of Moses.
Had the gentile Christians been brought up with Sabbath+scriptures this whole thing would be resolved differently.
There would have been no surprising point for James to explain Sabbath+scriptures, He's about to tell folks who worked the holy spirit....by the way don't worship idols. Let that one sink in for a minute.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You are welcome to address the points listed in the OP - "sola scriptura".
Will they address any of the key points in the OP? If so -- great!
In this first reference to the actual Bible - you address point 1 -
Let's evaluate that claim "sola scriptura" --
1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)
Your entire argument against NOT one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" is "Is Jacob your father" - as if the text had said "ONLY if Jacob your father is the Sabbath the Holy day of the LORD" or that you had "week-day-1 is the Holy Day of the LORD instead of the Sabbath - if Jacob is not your father".
New Covenant "I will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah... I will write my LAWS on their mind and on their heart" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10. "House of who???"
Rom 2 "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"
There is no verse in the NT that commands Gentiles to keep the 3rd commandment - it is never even quoted - saying "do not take the name of the Lord Thy God in vain" - but there is ALSO no "fluff rule" in the Bible about "Deleting whatever is not repeated" -- hmmm.. "Sola scriptura matters".
Neither of those texts say "keep week-day-1 as a day of worship" --
None of them say "we meet weekly on week-day-1"
None of them say "our term Sabbath now applies to week-day-1"
None of the texts you give say "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy".
None of the texts you give say "we met week-day-1 after week-day-1 for worship".
My argument is not "Yes - they might on occasion meet on Tuesday but the weekly day of rest was Sabbath - so they would never ever meet on week-day-1 not even once"
we have the example of Paul going into the synagogues on the Sabbath because that is when both GENTILES and Jews were meeting of those people in the town who accepted the Bible and had chosen to worship the God of the Bible.
Even as Jews objected - they kept meeting with GENTILES and Jews not only "Sabbath after Sabbath" but as Acts 18 says "EVERY Sabbath".
No such "EVERY week-day-1" meeting for worship and Bible study - stated at all - in either the OT or the NT.
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