Some arguments against Calvinism

[Winman]

Men can give sinners a false hope too, Brother Wes. They'll say "all you have to do is repeat this prayer after me, and presto chango, ollie ollie oxen free, hoopla, swish, and BAM, you're saved!!!!" Now, call us and tell us you're saved and we'll send your our literature, and it will tell you how to stay saved.

People like this make my skin crawl....gives me the heebie beegies....

How can someone who believes they are saved because they asked Jesus to save them not be saved? They are trusting that Jesus saved them as he promised he would.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

We know this Samaratin woman believed God would send the Messias, the Christ (Jhn 6:25).

Now, if she believed Jesus was the Christ and simply asked him to save her as he plainly told her, are you saying she could be lost?

You better rethink this one Willis.

If someone believes they are saved because they asked Jesus to save them, they are depending on the promise of God. They are saved.

Unless you do not believe Jesus's promise here.

 

[Winman]

I think you are taking a rare case and attempting to make it a rule just to support you personal vendetta against what you perceive as Calvinism. I personally know of no Calvinist in my 40 years of ministry that fits what you seem to be making a standard characteristic of calvinism and calvinists. I really don't think anyone on this forum would see your argument as a fair argument.

No, I have just read that many Calvinists lack assurance, and I can understand why.

And I seriously doubt you have never known a doubting Calvinist, unless people simply do not confide in you. I can actually see that.

Secondly, are you claiming that truely saved persons are incapable of thinking, or committing suicide?

Never said such a thing, and have no idea where you got this notion.

Thirdly, I believe that one consequence of sin is depression which is actually disobedience to confess and actually believe God has forgiven you of your sins. Have you ever been depressed? Can some people fall into lower stages of depression than others?

I agree with this. If your assurance is based on performance, then a person who falls into sin could easily doubt their salvation and become very depressed. That is exactly the point I have been trying to make.

If your assurance is based upon God's promises and his faithfulness to keep those promises, and not your own personal performance, you are far less likely to doubt and be depressed.

 

[convicted1]

How can someone who believes they are saved because they asked Jesus to save them not be saved? They are trusting that Jesus saved them as he promised he would.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

We know this Samaratin woman believed God would send the Messias, the Christ (Jhn 6:25).

Now, if she believed Jesus was the Christ and simply asked him to save her as he plainly told her, are you saying she could be lost?

You better rethink this one Willis.

If someone believes they are saved because they asked Jesus to save them, they are depending on the promise of God. They are saved.

Unless you do not believe Jesus's promise here.

What I meant is this "repeat after me" canned prayer. I am referring to those "TV shysters" who well tell a sinner anything just to gain access into their wallet/purse/bank account, etc. If this "repeat after me" canned prayer is said w/o repentance, it won't go anywhere. That's what I'm saying. Just because they "repeat after me", it is no guarantor of salvation....

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm saying. Just because they "repeat after me", it is no guarantor of salvation....

And....no one......thinks is does.

 

[convicted1]

And....no one......thinks is does.

Many have believed these shysters. I am not saying the good folks on BB do, but others have.

 

[Winman]

What I meant is this "repeat after me" canned prayer. I am referring to those "TV shysters" who well tell a sinner anything just to gain access into their wallet/purse/bank account, etc. If this "repeat after me" canned prayer is said w/o repentance, it won't go anywhere. That's what I'm saying. Just because they "repeat after me", it is no guarantor of salvation....

I will agree that these are some of the poorest gospel presentations you will ever hear. But once in awhile, even these shysters give a pretty good presentation of the gospel, they explain that folks are sinners on their way to hell, that Jesus died for their sins and rose again, and that Jesus has promised anyone who believes on him will be saved. I've seen and heard TV preachers do this. In this case, if they lead a person in prayer, and that person is truly crying out to Jesus to save them from their sins, they are saved.

Salvation is easy, Jesus said all you have to do is ask. It is men that makes salvation difficult.

 

[Greektim]

Oh the subject Tim......I still do not understand this Christian Heathiesm stuff you have listed on on your signature. Piper, I guess is the guy pushing it......but I need to know more when you get the chance.

That is all, over and out.

Just read his book Desiring God. It is the core of Piper's shtick, "God is most glorified in you when you are most satisfied in him." This of course comes straight from Edwards, updated language.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Many have believed these shysters. I am not saying the good folks on BB do, but others have.

Willis.....are referring to the citizens of the good ole USA? They hired BO.......TWICE!!!!. DUMBBELLS :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Greektim]

Thank you Tim, of all the Calvinists at BB, I think I most enjoy debating with you, because you are honest. I appreciate that, and I will always try to be straight with you.

It's not simply my logic about Calvinists lacking assurance, it is a real and common experience with many Calvinists. John Piper wrote that even he had great difficulty with assurance.

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-agonizing-problem-of-the-assurance-of-salvation



John Calvin taught that God gives some folks Evanescent Grace. This is a false faith that seems so real that the person himself is deceived. He believes he is saved, but in time will fall away.

So, the only thing that can assure someone who believes like this is to persevere in good works. And falling in sin can produce serious doubts.

This is the downside of Lordship Salvation and it's emphasis on performance.

People in scripture did not doubt when they believed. They KNEW they had believed and so did not lack assurance.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Thank you for the kind words and compliment. I am sure we've had our own rowdy-dows and more will come.

I can't speak for Piper really (or better, I shouldn't). I actually find myself doubting those bedrocks he spoke of at the beginning of his quote. But I also believe those to be natural doubts that all people struggle with.

I completely understand the logic of what you are saying. It is sound. I may even be more aware of it now. However, I have not run into the concept of doubting whether my faith is legit or if I am deceiving myself. It has not been a personal struggle for me. I can only account that as a gracious gift of God, along with all the other tremendous blessings he has bestowed in my life (faith, family, friends, ministry, career, studies; wow... when you list it like that, it is amazing!). He truly is the "God of all grace" (1 Pet 5:10; ῾Ο Θεὸς πάσης χάριτος).

 

[steaver]

No, I believe it would be far better for us to part company from the Arminian, separate in churches, establish our own houses of worship & teach our children our own set of beliefs. I see these people as no better than Catholics & (perhaps because I came out of the RC), I dont want my family associating with them. I want to raise my kids up to understand scripture the way I do, not the way the Arminian does. Look, I will work with them, make friends with them, eat with them but I dont want to associate with them in my or my families spiritual life.....same goes for Catholics, Jews, etc.

Do you teach your kids that it could be that one of them God may have decided to leave in hell. I'm sure you would want to teach them the whole truth about TULIP's election process.

 

[Greektim]

Do you teach your kids that it could be that one of them God may have decided to leave in hell. I'm sure you would want to teach them the whole truth about TULIP's election process.

Just b/c it is in the Bible doesn't mean you need to dump that all on children. I.e. even the ancient Jews wouldn't let kids read Song of Songs. There are many taboos in the Bible. There is no need to discuss a truth until they are ready and able to hear it. Most kids can't comprehend hell anyways. Mostly, that "discussion" is a ploy to scare kids into conversion. My strategy w/ my children will be to talk of the glory and magnificence and beauty and desirability and satisfaction of Jesus in all things. I want them to want Jesus NOT salvation from hell. See my siggie below.

 

[Winman]

Thank you for the kind words and compliment. I am sure we've had our own rowdy-dows and more will come.

I can't speak for Piper really (or better, I shouldn't). I actually find myself doubting those bedrocks he spoke of at the beginning of his quote. But I also believe those to be natural doubts that all people struggle with.

I completely understand the logic of what you are saying. It is sound. I may even be more aware of it now. However, I have not run into the concept of doubting whether my faith is legit or if I am deceiving myself. It has not been a personal struggle for me. I can only account that as a gracious gift of God, along with all the other tremendous blessings he has bestowed in my life (faith, family, friends, ministry, career, studies; wow... when you list it like that, it is amazing!). He truly is the "God of all grace" (1 Pet 5:10; ῾Ο Θεὸς πάσης χάριτος).

Well, some people are far more prone to doubt than others, you seem to be one of those persons who is not afflicted with this problem.

I myself had a serious issue with this many years ago, not because I worried if I were one of the elect, or worried whether my life reflected I was saved, but because I couldn't quite grasp what "to believe" means. I thought that to believe meant to always be filled with strong confidence, and that if you doubted at all, then you would not receive the promise of salvation. But the more you try not to doubt, the more you doubt. It is a vicious circle.

I finally came to know that believing in the Bible means to rely upon, to depend upon, to lean upon (Leaning, leaning, leaning on the everlasting arms!)

I came to understand that believing means to cast yourself upon Jesus in complete dependence for him to save you. This is what I had done that first time I prayed and asked Jesus to save me, so I finally got it straight that I had truly "believed on Jesus"

But I feel for those who doubt, I know what it is like, and it is terrible, it can be torment.

I have to tell you, being the skeptical person I am, if I were a Calvinist I would be scared to death. The only way you can really know you are elect in Calvinism is if you persevere to the end, and who can know that? Besides that, when you get into Lordship Salvation, how obedient is obedient enough?

I do not depend on my obedience and faithfulness to Jesus to know I am saved, I depend on Jesus's faithfulness to me. He promised he would save any person who believes on him, and I know I believed on him. :thumbsup:

Thanks again for being both nice, and very straightforward. I appreciate that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you teach your kids that it could be that one of them God may have decided to leave in hell. I'm sure you would want to teach them the whole truth about TULIP's election process.

They all understand that its not God who causes them to disbelieve. they do that all on own. they also understand that the lost are not sent to hell because God consigns them to it arbitrarily, but as a judgment for their sins. My family also understands & supports the belief in Full Sovereign Grace, which does not leave any room at all for human merit in salvation. See the whole aim of this style of soteriology, is to glorify God for His sovereign grace.....not adding any human element back into the equation.

I came from a Roman catholic background which insists that the will of man is the decisive factor in salvation. Not doing that anymore.....and my family agrees. Sola Gratia.....to add anything at all to God's grace is to destroy its graciousness, its very nature as a gift.

 

[Winman]

They all understand that its not God who causes them to disbelieve. they do that all on own. they also understand that the lost are not sent to hell because God consigns them to it arbitrarily, but as a judgment for their sins. My family also understands & supports the belief in Full Sovereign Grace, which does not leave any room at all for human merit in salvation. See the whole aim of this style of soteriology, is to glorify God for His sovereign grace.....not adding any human element back into the equation.

I came from a Roman catholic background which insists that the will of man is the decisive factor in salvation. Not doing that anymore.....and my family agrees. Sola Gratia.....to add anything at all to God's grace is to destroy its graciousness, its very nature as a gift.

What you fail to understand is that a person must receive a gift. Lots of folks take gifts back to the store on December 26th.

I would compare it to an engagement ring, the man offers it freely to his hopeful bride, but she can say no. Does the fact that she says yes and accepts the ring mean she paid for it? Ridiculous.

And that is exactly how salvation is shown in scripture, as a wedding. Jesus has always wanted to marry you and offers you his ring. Will you accept it?

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just b/c it is in the Bible doesn't mean you need to dump that all on children. I.e. even the ancient Jews wouldn't let kids read Song of Songs. There are many taboos in the Bible. There is no need to discuss a truth until they are ready and able to hear it. Most kids can't comprehend hell anyways. Mostly, that "discussion" is a ploy to scare kids into conversion. My strategy w/ my children will be to talk of the glory and magnificence and beauty and desirability and satisfaction of Jesus in all things. I want them to want Jesus NOT salvation from hell. See my siggie below.

Old school baptist types believe it is necessary for kids to hear the truths of the bible as early as possible. That is why we bring them to worship service almost at infantry....no SS here. Then they hear it reinforced in the home. My wife grew up in an old school dutch reformed church. These truths are as natural to her as is breathing. She often corrects me when I start reverting to Catholic theological (unlimited atonement) thinking. Its completely absurd to her.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What you fail to understand is that a person must receive a gift. Lots of folks take gifts back to the store on December 26th.

I would compare it to an engagement ring, the man offers it freely to hopeful bride, but she can say no. Does the fact that she says yes and accepts the ring mean she paid for it? Ridiculous.

And that is exactly how salvation is shown in scripture, as a wedding. Jesus has always wanted to marry you and offers you his ring. Will you accept it?

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

You fail repeatedly in superimposing human characteristics to God. I dont....I let God be God & thats how we teach in my household. OK so go to your church & believe what you want, but I will go to my church & raise my family as I understand the gospel to teach. Thats the bottom line.

 

[Winman]

You fail repeatedly in superimposing human characteristics to God. I dont....I let God be God & thats how we teach in my household. OK so go to your church & believe what you want, but I will go to my church & raise my family as I understand the gospel to teach. Thats the bottom line.

Oh, so Paul saying we are married to Christ is me superimposing human characteristics to God?

I guess if you are a Calvinist it was a shotgun wedding. :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh, so Paul saying we are married to Christ is me superimposing human characteristics to God?

I guess if you are a Calvinist it was a shotgun wedding. :laugh:

Again tell me what a Calvinist is before I admit to that. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Again tell me what a Calvinist is before I admit to that. :smilewinkgrin:

A Calvinist is someone who believes that God is a self centered person who does everything for his own pleasure and glory.

A Calvinist believes that God worked so alone in salvation that nobody else was there, including a sinner.

 

[Rippon]

I will go to my church & raise my family as I understand the gospel to teach.

It's hard to keep track of you, but I thought you were not a part of any church.