Some arguments against Calvinism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hard-headed a stiff knecked people hasn't changed.

Men are responsible for what is happening around us because of rebellion and our effort to prevent the Gospel of Jesus Christ to spread and our murdering ways.

What is happening around us is because of rebellion and God doesn't mind given us what we deserve, not for us go turn away from Him but to turn us toward Him.

Satan the devil is the liar and murderer from the beginning and we are still believing his lies.

Divine Sovereignty doesn't get rid of our responsibility to trust in God even if the world is crumbling around us it is our own fault.

When we continue to do as Adam blame God for creating that which caused us to fall. When we are responsible for what we did and need to own up to it.


God chose the new creation in Christ born again by His enduring word not the dead old creation we was before Christ.

So I understand you, you are answering this as a "Synergist"..... IE, you are stating that divine sovereignty must somehow be accommodated to human capability. Therefore both election & reprobation are not divine decrees; they are based on human choices. The efficacy of atonement does not rest on Christ's saving work alone but on the sinners faith & repentance.

 

[Yeshua1]

Amen! :thumbs: I teach and believe everything you posted here.

If I were a young man and married a young woman again, and I truly believed TULIP was correct, I certainly wouldn't take the chance of having children just to see some of them spend eternity in hell, seeing they had no choice in the matter, knowing my efforts could play no part in their coming to know Jesus. As you described the TULIP way......"to add anything at all to God's grace is to destroy its graciousness".

Some who hold to Election would say that the children of the redeemed will also have been elected unto eternal life in Christ, but my stance is that the Lord desires most to have kids, and let us permit Him to do with our children as he so desires!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Some who hold to Election would say that the children of the redeemed will also have been elected unto eternal life in Christ, but my stance is that the Lord desires most to have kids, and let us permit Him to do with our children as he so desires!

Right......:smilewinkgrin:

anyway.....Will not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25

 

[steaver]

Quite true. And I am content in that truth that God is sovereign over my children. Like Paul, I pray and plead to God to bring them to spiritual life in the midst of God's sovereign election.

Amen! :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

Here is a short excerpt from Matt Chandler on this issue. Very good. http://www.cross.tv/88811

I actually found it very sad....

 

[steaver]

Jesus spoke and taught about hell (1) in order to educate His elect listeners then about what they have been spared from, which sparing was determined from the foundation of the world, and (2) to educate His elect readers after then, now, and tomorrow of what they had been spared from, which like His listeners then, the sparing was determined from the foundation of the world.

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Would like to see some passages of Jesus saying something remotely close to this....

 

[Greektim]

I actually found it very sad....

Most hard truths are sad. But I also rejoice in that I am free of the burden as well. I will do my part, by God's grace, but it is not up to me. That is liberating... and yet very hard since like so many things we try to retain control of things we ought not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I actually found it very sad....

Deal with it. You are not God & he does not consult you in situations of Creation & Salvation. What I find sad is that what has replaces the gospel of grace is a message that is partially biblical but ultimately self-centered.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Most hard truths are sad. But I also rejoice in that I am free of the burden as well. I will do my part, by God's grace, but it is not up to me. That is liberating... and yet very hard since like so many things we try to retain control of things we ought not.

BINGO......we want the control & thats our pride & our fear all rolled into one. We want to be the potter & it cannot be. But of course these are distinct doctrinal issues that are linked by a common concern to downplay predestination so as to allow human beings to determine their own spiritual destiny. I see it as humanism peaking through our fleshy needs to control. Again the result is a theology that is not exclusively "God-Centered" but is distorted in the direction of self. Thats what I really find SAD.:tear:

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver
Originally Posted by pinoybaptist View Post
Jesus spoke and taught about hell (1) in order to educate His elect listeners then about what they have been spared from, which sparing was determined from the foundation of the world, and (2) to educate His elect readers after then, now, and tomorrow of what they had been spared from, which like His listeners then, the sparing was determined from the foundation of the world.

.

Would like to see some passages of Jesus saying something remotely close to this....

do you mean like this?? surely you see these verses...you just do not like them-

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[steaver]

Most hard truths are sad.

Maybe in the human realm of thought. But God's truths are not hard at all, but liberating! The Truth shall make you free! It is very comforting knowing God has sovereign control and is always righteous in His judgments and in His ways.

But I also rejoice in that I am free of the burden as well. I will do my part, by God's grace, but it is not up to me. That is liberating... and yet very hard since like so many things we try to retain control of things we ought not

But actually in TULIP terms you have no "part to do" in your salvation, your children's salvation, nor anyone else's salvation, it is ALL of God. He does not need your teaching your children, He does not need your preaching His Gospel.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe in the human realm of thought. But God's truths are not hard at all, but liberating! The Truth shall make you free! It is very comforting knowing God has sovereign control and is always righteous in His judgments and in His ways.



But actually in TULIP terms you have no "part to do" in your salvation, your children's salvation, nor anyone else's salvation, it is ALL of God. He does not need your teaching your children, He does not need your preaching His Gospel.

Yes he doesn't even need us on the planet walking around and breathing and all......but that is how he set it up and only He knows why. We are to hear Him and be obedient to his word. So we do.

 

[steaver]

Yes he doesn't even need us on the planet walking around and breathing and all......but that is how he set it up and only He knows why. We are to hear Him and be obedient to his word. So we do.

Amen! Just as He has set up freewill choice in His plan of election and only He knows why. We are to hear Him and be obedient to His word. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

Yes he doesn't even need us on the planet walking around and breathing and all......but that is how he set it up and only He knows why. We are to hear Him and be obedient to his word. So we do.

What an absolutely strange view. Calvinism sees man in the worst possible light, we are all just filthy maggots in their view. They seem to view God as being utterly nauseated by his own creation, and somehow this all glorifies God and pleases him.

The Calvinist view and Non-Calvinist view of God could not be more different.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What an absolutely strange view. Calvinism sees man in the worst possible light, we are all just filthy maggots in their view. They seem to view God as being utterly nauseated by his own creation, and somehow this all glorifies God and pleases him.

The Calvinist view and Non-Calvinist view of God could not be more different.

There ya go again....judging God rather than allowing God to be God. But that's you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amen! Just as He has set up freewill choice in His plan of election and only He knows why. We are to hear Him and be obedient to His word. :thumbsup:

Ahhhh no....again you have just added human interaction.

 

[Winman]

Ahhhh no....again you have just added human interaction.

You do agree that a sinner has to be involved in being saved don't you? I mean, God can't save someone who isn't there can he?

This is why I said a Calvinist believes God works so alone in salvation that no one else is there, including a sinner.

But you will allow a sinner to be involved at least as much as he is being saved won't you? :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

What an absolutely strange view. Calvinism sees man in the worst possible light, we are all just filthy maggots in their view. They seem to view God as being utterly nauseated by his own creation, and somehow this all glorifies God and pleases him.

The Calvinist view and Non-Calvinist view of God could not be more different.

Look at it like this, Brother Wes. God sent His only begotten Son, the One who when He was baptized and came straightway out of the water, and the heavens opened and the Spirit, in the bodily shape of a dove lit upon Him, and God the Father said, This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased"......when Jesus transformed Himself in front of Peter, James and John, and when they stepped in the cloud, and God the Father said, "This is My beloved Son, hear ye Him"....... And yet, when our sins were placed upon Jesus, He withdrew Himself from His Son...."In Whom I am well pleased"...., because God can not look upon sin and the sinner and not have a distain, and hatred for them. When Jesus took upon Himself the appearance of sin, God had to pour His wrath out on His Son, because in His righteousness, sin can not, and will not, go unpunished. It pleased Him to bruise His Son, not that He is a cruel monster, but that He had to punish Jesus, His Son..."In Whom I am well pleased"....

 

[steaver]

Ahhhh no....again you have just added human interaction.

You keep saying this and I'm not sure why. Yes, God has designed human interaction into His plan of salvation, tis why we have preachers and teachers. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God - human interaction - it takes preachers and hearers.

 

[Winman]

Look at it like this, Brother Wes. God sent His only begotten Son, the One who when He was baptized and came straightway out of the water, and the heavens opened and the Spirit, in the bodily shape of a dove lit upon Him, and God the Father said, This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased"......when Jesus transformed Himself in front of Peter, James and John, and when they stepped in the cloud, and God the Father said, "This is My beloved Son, hear ye Him"....... And yet, when our sins were placed upon Jesus, He withdrew Himself from His Son...."In Whom I am well pleased"...., because God can not look upon sin and the sinner and not have a distain, and hatred for them. When Jesus took upon Himself the appearance of sin, God had to pour His wrath out on His Son, because in His righteousness, sin can not, and will not, go unpunished. It pleased Him to bruise His Son, not that He is a cruel monster, but that He had to punish Jesus, His Son..."In Whom I am well pleased"....

I am not denying that we are all sinners, nevertheless, this is not the way God looks at us. The scriptures to this day say we are made after the similitude of God.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

This verse doesn't say we "were" made after the similitude of God, it says we "are" made after the similitude of God. That is present tense, NOW.

How does that verse fit with Original Sin?

And this verse is teaching that it is evil and a sin to speak evil about men.

You have to read all the scriptures, not just some.