But doesn't the fact remain in all things? Or, do you suggest God could be the author of confusion in other matters concerning His church?
I believe the statement can be applied in all things, don't you?
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Some arguments against Calvinism
- Thread starter Jordan Kurecki
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But doesn't the fact remain in all things? Or, do you suggest God could be the author of confusion in other matters concerning His church?
I believe the statement can be applied in all things, don't you?
Yes, in the sense that God wants things to be done in a peaceful, ordered way. We know this since we see that God is a logical and ordered being and created things in a similar fashion.
However it is totally inappropriate to take that passage and twist it into some sort of defense for traditionalism or using it to argue that within God's plan he cannot permit differing points of view.
Paul, as always, is referring to 'those being saved':
for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God, 1 Cor 1:18 YLT
Our temporal salvation is an ongoing, continuous affair for our entire lives in this realm. It is not a 'one time event':
So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12,13
Our temporal salvation is not a 'one time obey' to a salvific incantation or formula, and then presto chango, we're 'fixed' for the rest of our lives, example:
because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: Ro 10:9
That's not something one does 'one time only' to be 'saved', it's a way of life. This is why it's crucial for a church to embrace the primacy of the preaching to feed the flock that He hath purchased with His own blood. It is God's design that His little lambs be 'saved' through the 'foolishness of the preaching'.
And it's not only Paul, but the entire Bible is intended for the Saints. Some clear examples:
Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:
2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:
Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;
1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:
Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....
James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;
1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:
1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;
3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.
Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:
Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
Hey! It's time to get ready for church!
Last week I subbed for our older adult class, lesson was on Jesus scolding the Pharisees for their traditions being held equal to God's Word, and worse, even greater than. Got quite a stir going when I pointed out Sunday morning gatherings was tradition and not a directive from the Word of God. Then I told them Sunday wasn't the Sabbath!!!!! Whooooohooooo, oh boy. They let me have a little scolding back............
raying:
Last week I subbed for our older adult class, lesson was on Jesus scolding the Pharisees for their traditions being held equal to God's Word, and worse, even greater than. Got quite a stir going when I pointed out Sunday morning gatherings was tradition and not a directive from the Word of God. Then I told them Sunday wasn't the Sabbath!!!!! Whooooohooooo, oh boy. They let me have a little scolding back............
raying:Hey! It's time to get ready for church!
Last week I subbed for our older adult class, lesson was on Jesus scolding the Pharisees for their traditions being held equal to God's Word, and worse, even greater than. Got quite a stir going when I pointed out Sunday morning gatherings was tradition and not a directive from the Word of God. Then I told them Sunday wasn't the Sabbath!!!!! Whooooohooooo, oh boy. They let me have a little scolding back............
:thumbsup: Enjoy your worship time. :godisgood:
Wish I wasn't working today.
That's not what my Bible says;
1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
And folks say the modern versions say the same thing as the King James Bible.
I don't know where you get this "temporal salvation" from, my Bible says NOW we are the sons of God;
1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
That verse is not saying to work to be saved, it is saying to work because you are saved.
Jesus said those who have believed "hath" everlasting life and are "passed" from death to life. They have everlasting life NOW.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
It doesn't say that, it simply says if you confess Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead you shall be saved. It doesn't say you have to do it over and over again, you are reading into scripture what is not there.
OK, so much if not most of the scriptures are written to folks who are already saved, but much scripture is written to tell folks HOW to be saved.
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This verse declares that the book of John is written to unbelievers so that they might believe, and that believing they might have life.
So much of the scriptures are written for unsaved folks.
Do you believe that Timothy finally somewhere along the line got 'saved' before he died?
:applause::applause::applause: Well said...or typed:type:
Thank you sir.
And folks say the modern versions say the same thing as the King James Version.
FTFY :thumbs:
I believe Timothy was saved the moment he believed.
I do not believe a truly saved person can fall away, because they are joined to the Holy Spirit and are one spirit.
1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
As our physical bodies are made from a combination of our two parents bodies, when we trust Jesus our spirit is washed clean and joined or baptized into the Holy Spirit. Therefore we cannot fall away in unbelief.
1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The seed here is the word of God, the Holy Spirit. If we are truly born again, then our seed remains in us, and we cannot fall away.
But men cannot see this, all they can see is whether we continue in the truth or not, and this is what Paul is saying, if Timothy continues in true doctrine he will be saved.
If he is not a true believer he could fall away into false doctrine, and this would be evidence that he was never saved.
A true believer is saved NOW, but men can only know if you continue in the faith and correct doctrine.
I mean, I know that for some reason you have this aversion to the notion that there's a daily, ongoing, temporal aspect to our salvation in which we are active and actually take part in, but this question is a pertinent one that reflects directly on your incredibly shallow meditation (or total lack thereof) on the text.
Do you think that Timothy CONTINUED and finally got saved?
Like it or not, 'continuing' is extremely of the utmost importance thing that we must do to be 'saved'.
......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23
Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22
Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2
but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14
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That is NOT how the text reads. It reads that both Timothy and the flock he was tending had to continue in order to be saved.
Yes, because the scriptures say NOW we are the sons of God.
1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
If you are truly born again, you are born again NOW. We are not waiting to be the sons of God someday in the future. I also showed you Jhn 5:24 that says whosoever believes "has" (hath) everlasting life. That is present tense.
Yes I do, but a man cannot truly know if another person is saved unless they continue in the faith.
If you are truly saved you will continue, you cannot fall away in unbelief, because the Holy Spirit remains in you, and you cannot continuously sin.
1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
OK, I understand your view (I really do). I noticed many years ago all the scripture that says you must "continue". I also noticed much scripture that says you are saved "now" and "cannot sin".
How do you reconcile these "seeming" contradictions? The verses that say we are saved now and cannot sin are stating a true believer's position. If someone truly believes on Jesus, they are saved now and cannot fall away.
But man cannot see that. I cannot tell if you have believed by just looking at you, and you cannot tell by looking at me. The only way you can tell if I am truly saved is if I continue in the true faith. If I veer off into some false doctrine or become an atheist, then you can know that I NEVER believed, and I was never sealed by the Holy Spirit.
So, both are true and no contradiction if you understand it properly.
Yep, we must continue.
Yep, we must hold fast.
Yep, we must hold fast.
And if you are truly saved, if you truly believed on Jesus and received the Holy Spirit you will continue and will hold fast.
If you did not really believe and are just "playing church" you will not continue, you will not hold fast, because you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. You are very likely to stop believing (but you never really believed) or go off into some false doctrine.
I think the problem is that many folks do not know what "believing" really means. Many folks think they believe when they do not. They do not understand the correct meaning of the term.
To believe does not mean to simply accept a fact. Roman Catholics believe the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and that he rose from the dead, but they do not "believe ON him", which means to trust or rely upon him to save you.
You could have been a leper or a cripple when Jesus walked by, and you might have believed he was the promised son of God. That won't heal you, you had to go up and trust him to heal you. You had to apply to him.
You must apply or commit yourself to Jesus to be saved. It is more than believing a fact.
Believing a doctor can operate and remove a tumor you have will not save you, you have to actually trust or rely upon him before he can save you. You have to go to the hospital and allow him to put you asleep and open up your skull and remove that tumor.
Simply believing he is a doctor with the skill to save you won't save you.
Many folks believe a fact about Jesus, but have never committed their soul to him to be actually saved.
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1 Tim 4:16 is not about becoming children of God. It's about His children obeying and believing and entering into that Sabbath rest that He has appointed for them in this temporal realm. There is great reward for His children in obeying and believing the gospel.
Yes, it is God's design, His good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. He gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater. This is the way that He intended for the flock to be fed. Salvation is an ongoing continuous process, not a one time only event.
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Yes, God uses men to save men, and a man must believe to be saved.
Even you are trying to argue a man must "continue" or "endure to the end" to be saved. How is that monergism?
A true believer is saved the moment he believes, he has passed from death to life. But men cannot see this, men can only know if another man is saved if he continues in the faith and true doctrine. Any man who does not continue in the faith or true doctrine reveals he was never saved to begin with.
Your view is nothing but works salvation. You have to perform to be saved. My view is that the true believer is saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot help but continue, because his seed remains in him, and he cannot sin.
HUGE difference.
No, what it is really teaching is that true doctrine is necessary to be saved.
Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.
Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.
Oh trust me, I'm a monergist in the strictest sense. You know that. I just don't gom up the word 'saved' as you do. I take it as it is intended in the scripture.
Give me a break, you tell us a man has to continue, persevere, or endure to the end to be saved, how is that monergism? :laugh:
You can't just redefine words to mean whatever you want them to mean at the moment.
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