Some arguments against Calvinism

[pinoybaptist]

You keep saying this and I'm not sure why. Yes, God has designed human interaction into His plan of salvation, tis why we have preachers and teachers. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God - human interaction - it takes preachers and hearers.

there is no human interaction in relation to ETERNAL salvation/redemption. All action is on the part of God. He electED, He redeemED. check out Romans 8:28-30.

Human interaction (faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, preachers, hearers, obedience, disobedience, blessing, cursing, etc., etc., ) is in relation to TIME or GOSPEL salvation, should God's timely plan for the individual is to be a member of a flock here in time.

Did God command Moses to take the law as well to the heathen around Israel, or was He ordered to expound the law and enforce it only among Israel and whoever stranger sojourns with them ?

what was it Paul said in Romans 15:4 ? for whom was everything that was written, written ? and in 1 Corinthians 10:12 (?) ? what happened to whom happened as an example to whom ?

the redemption of the human soul is purely God's prerogative, and He did it well.
man's problem has always been that he wants himself in the equation.

 

[Winman]

You keep saying this and I'm not sure why. Yes, God has designed human interaction into His plan of salvation, tis why we have preachers and teachers. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God - human interaction - it takes preachers and hearers.

Their view is nonsensical. Men are completely involved in salvation and always have been. God had priests and prophets teach the people.

And even a Calvinist will say after a man is regenerated that he must believe, just not before. What's the difference? That's man being involved in salvation. :laugh:

 

[Winman]

there is no human interaction in relation to ETERNAL salvation/redemption. All action is on the part of God. He electED, He redeemED. check out Romans 8:28-30.

Human interaction (faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, preachers, hearers, obedience, disobedience, blessing, cursing, etc., etc., ) is in relation to TIME or GOSPEL salvation, should God's timely plan for the individual is to be a member of a flock here in time.

Did God command Moses to take the law as well to the heathen around Israel, or was He ordered to expound the law and enforce it only among Israel and whoever stranger sojourns with them ?

what was it Paul said in Romans 15:4 ? for whom was everything that was written, written ? and in 1 Corinthians 10:12 (?) ? what happened to whom happened as an example to whom ?

the redemption of the human soul is purely God's prerogative, and He did it well.
man's problem has always been that he wants himself in the equation.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Yeah, even Paul had that problem. :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You keep saying this and I'm not sure why. Yes, God has designed human interaction into His plan of salvation, tis why we have preachers and teachers. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God - human interaction - it takes preachers and hearers.

Steve....forget about it:BangHead:

 

[steaver]

Old school baptist types believe it is necessary for kids to hear the truths of the bible as early as possible. That is why we bring them to worship service almost at infantry....no SS here. Then they hear it reinforced in the home. My wife grew up in an old school dutch reformed church. These truths are as natural to her as is breathing. She often corrects me when I start reverting to Catholic theological (unlimited atonement) thinking. Its completely absurd to her.

This is a good point to add to this conversation. Just why does one believe what they believe when it comes to establishing the Word of God as they read it?

1) Human preachers/teachers have insisted their student apply the Word as they present it or face ostracization/shunning, as practiced by groups such as the Amish and JW's.

2) Human preachers/teachers allow the Holy Spirit to either confirm or reject the human "explanations" and the student may discern by the Holy Spirit the life application of God's Word.

Model #1 would equate to one preaching hell fire upon their congregation in order to make them follow a set "explanations" of Scripture. In this model the Holy Spirit is pushed aside and it is the preacher's convictions that are to be followed.

Model #2 would plant seed and water as God commanded and allow God through the work of the Holy Spirit to have the final application of the Word and the glory all Goes to God.

When you say you would like to have a separated church, as in you must believe TULIP or we do not want you in our congregation, nor do we want to fellowship with you, are you really following God's teaching in the Scriptures?

One can take the cult approach to Scripture and establishing congregations or families, and they may think this immunes their subjects from exposure to what they perceive as "false doctrines", but praise be to God, He did not let it up to man entirely to teach, He gave the Holy Spirit to assure man was not having the last word on these matters. Even in these cults the Spirit breaks through and saves some and leads them out, setting them free indeed.

We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account, and this is even more serious for those who delve into the teaching/preaching realm. When I teach/preach, I will present the Word of God as I see it after much prayer and study, when there are subjects of controversy I will give the differing views, and when finished I will have peace that I did my part, it is God who will either confirm what I have taught, or will reject what I have taught to the hearts and minds of the students.

 

[convicted1]

I am not denying that we are all sinners, nevertheless, this is not the way God looks at us. The scriptures to this day say we are made after the similitude of God.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

This verse doesn't say we "were" made after the similitude of God, it says we "are" made after the similitude of God. That is present tense, NOW.

How does that verse fit with Original Sin?

And this verse is teaching that it is evil and a sin to speak evil about men.

You have to read all the scriptures, not just some.

Brother Wes, Adam was made in God's image. We're made in the image of Adam, post-fall...we're marred by Adam's sin....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

there is no human interaction in relation to ETERNAL salvation/redemption. All action is on the part of God. He electED, He redeemED. check out Romans 8:28-30.

Human interaction (faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, preachers, hearers, obedience, disobedience, blessing, cursing, etc., etc., ) is in relation to TIME or GOSPEL salvation, should God's timely plan for the individual is to be a member of a flock here in time.

Did God command Moses to take the law as well to the heathen around Israel, or was He ordered to expound the law and enforce it only among Israel and whoever stranger sojourns with them ?

what was it Paul said in Romans 15:4 ? for whom was everything that was written, written ? and in 1 Corinthians 10:12 (?) ? what happened to whom happened as an example to whom ?

the redemption of the human soul is purely God's prerogative, and He did it well.
man's problem has always been that he wants himself in the equation.

So how many times has he heard this? But for the last time (and then quit) -- the sinner contributes NOTHING to his or her own salvation. It is God 's work from beginning to end.

You have heard the term "Sola Gratia"....well cousin that means Grace ALONE. To add anything.....ANYTHING....at all to God 's grace is to destroy its graciousness, its very nature as a gift.

 

[Winman]

Brother Wes, Adam was made in God's image. We're made in the image of Adam, post-fall...we're marred by Adam's sin....

You need to read that passage again Willis, and pay attention this time.

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Oh, you like verse 3 don't you? That verse says Seth was made in Adam's likeness and image.

But you overlook verse 1 that says Adam was made in God's likeness.

See, you have to pay attention when you read scripture, or you might miss something very important.

 

[Winman]

Brother Wes, Adam was made in God's image. We're made in the image of Adam, post-fall...we're marred by Adam's sin....

I forgot to ask Willis, where do the scriptures say our image was marred by Adam's sin? I would really like to see that scripture.

 

[prophet]

there is no human interaction in relation to ETERNAL salvation/redemption. All action is on the part of God. He electED, He redeemED. check out Romans 8:28-30.

Human interaction (faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, preachers, hearers, obedience, disobedience, blessing, cursing, etc., etc., ) is in relation to TIME or GOSPEL salvation, should God's timely plan for the individual is to be a member of a flock here in time.

Did God command Moses to take the law as well to the heathen around Israel, or was He ordered to expound the law and enforce it only among Israel and whoever stranger sojourns with them ?

what was it Paul said in Romans 15:4 ? for whom was everything that was written, written ? and in 1 Corinthians 10:12 (?) ? what happened to whom happened as an example to whom ?

the redemption of the human soul is purely God's prerogative, and He did it well.
man's problem has always been that he wants himself in the equation.

Job didn't need Moses' Law.

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written!
oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead
in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The Law was given as a Schoolmaster, and the ceremonies of it , a testimony to the whole Earth.

Act 2:9-11
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Why were all these people here?

The whole world knew that God Himself visited that Temple.

Act 8:27-28
27 And he arose and went:and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

See?

The testimony of the Law, and its bearers, spoke to the entire World.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

the redemption of the human soul is purely God's prerogative, and He did it well.
man's problem has always been that he wants himself in the equation.

...and if humans contribute any essential part towards their salvation, they effectively become their own savior.

So the Synergist always has to insist on a deal made between him and God....but what deal is that really. Yea I accept you lord or buzz off pal, I'm not interested....lol!

 

[Winman]

...and if humans contribute any essential part towards their salvation, they effectively become their own savior.

So the Synergist always has to insist on a deal made between him and God....but what deal is that really. Yea I accept you lord or buzz off pal, I'm not interested....lol!

Boy, too bad you guys weren't around to correct Paul, he not only believed a man took part in his own salvation, but he believed a man took part in other folks salvation as well.

1 Tim 4:6 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Paul must not have been a Calvinist.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Job didn't need Moses' Law.

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written!
oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead
in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The Law was given as a Schoolmaster, and the ceremonies of it , a testimony to the whole Earth.

Act 2:9-11
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Why were all these people here?

The whole world knew that God Himself visited that Temple.

Act 8:27-28
27 And he arose and went:and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

See?

The testimony of the Law, and its bearers, spoke to the entire World.

Your post just illustrated my point.
no human interaction between God and man when it comes to eternal salvation.
Job didn't have a gospel to hear, but he knew of a Redeemer.
He knew of Adam's transgression and that Adam tried to cover his transgression before God (31:33).
Which tells us that the promise of a Redeemer for God's people was known and believed by God's people down through the ages.

 

[steaver]

So how many times has he heard this? But for the last time (and then quit) -- the sinner contributes NOTHING to his or her own salvation. It is God 's work from beginning to end.

You have heard the term "Sola Gratia"....well cousin that means Grace ALONE. To add anything.....ANYTHING....at all to God 's grace is to destroy its graciousness, its very nature as a gift.

Even though I do not agree with TULIP, often times I find myself shouting Amen! :thumbs: when I agree with your statements.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Boy, too bad you guys weren't around to correct Paul, he not only believed a man took part in his own salvation, but he believed a man took part in other folks salvation as well.

1 Tim 4:6 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Paul must not have been a Calvinist.

Nor am I if you want to get technical, but I am a Monergist......and here is where I see a clear line of demarcation. So if man is free to resist, God is not free to act, for He is bound by man's freedom (he has to concede to mans desires & in a fallen world, not a good thing). If God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God thereby trusting in his maker that He knows what He is doing. Personally, I would prefer the latter to the former for obvious reasons. Believe me that my wife would find humor in this.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Even though I do not agree with TULIP, often times I find myself shouting Amen! :thumbs: when I agree with your statements.

Steve, I am reluctant to take any high moral ground as you really dont see Jesus doing it. I am slowly studying the Sermon on the Mount and it is in stark contrast to much of my own worldly practices....stuff like:

Loving your enemy's, interior poverty, not seeking social status, forgiveness & rejoicing in times of persecution--- that is turning the world on its head. LOL!

 

[Winman]

Nor am I if you want to get technical, but I am a Monergist......and here is where I see a clear line of demarcation. So if man is free to resist, God is not free to act, for He is bound by man's freedom (he has to concede to mans desires & in a fallen world, not a good thing). If God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God thereby trusting in his maker that He knows what He is doing. Personally, I would prefer the latter to the former for obvious reasons. Believe me that my wife would find humor in this.

You guys just don't get it, there is only ONE way to be saved, by coming to the Father through his Son Jesus Christ.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

God is calling the shots. He will save us, but we have to do it HIS WAY, and his way is by believing or trusting his Son Jesus to save us.

So, when we believe on Jesus, we are being OBEDIENT to God. He is in charge, and we are SUBMITTING to him. That is why it is called obeying the gospel.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Believing on Jesus is obeying God's command. It is making God LORD. It is making God SOVEREIGN.

Why can't you guys understand this?

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Believing on Jesus is SUBMITTING to God the Father. It is doing what he commanded us to do.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You guys just don't get it, there is only ONE way to be saved, by coming to the Father through his Son Jesus Christ.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

God is calling the shots. He will save us, but we have to do it HIS WAY, and his way is by believing or trusting his Son Jesus to save us.

So, when we believe on Jesus, we are being OBEDIENT to God. He is in charge, and we are SUBMITTING to him. That is why it is called obeying the gospel.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Believing on Jesus is obeying God's command. It is making God LORD. It is making God SOVEREIGN.

Why can't you guys understand this?

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Believing on Jesus is SUBMITTING to God the Father. It is doing what he commanded us to do.

Just how long have you been involved this disgussion & just how long have you been told the POV as seen through the eyes of Monergists.......but you insist on attempting to shot gun your dogma on others. There is a pattern here that you either refuse to accept or your cronically obsessive. In either case, I could care less. I have stated my POV(that salvation is entirely of God otherwise God's honor would be diminished) & I'm done, you can take the marbles & go home. And you can have the last word if you like, :laugh: But let me leave you with this; (Ephesians 2:8-9)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[steaver]

Nor am I if you want to get technical, but I am a Monergist......and here is where I see a clear line of demarcation. So if man is free to resist, God is not free to act, for He is bound by man's freedom (he has to concede to mans desires & in a fallen world, not a good thing). If God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God thereby trusting in his maker that He knows what He is doing. Personally, I would prefer the latter to the former for obvious reasons. Believe me that my wife would find humor in this.

Demarcation? Had to Google that one :tongue3:

God is not bound by man's freewill at all for it is God who has implemented freewill into His redemptive design. God places before His creation the choice of life and death, this does not "bind" God in any way for God is free to judge His creation in sin and unbelief, and free to draw and persuade His creation to choose life through belief in His sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.
It is God's will that man should be given a choice, this is righteous and just, as any reasoning man would conclude. God says, "come, let us reason together" (Is1:18)

"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people" (Ro10:21)


"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deu30:19)

 

[Winman]

Just how long have you been involved this disgussion & just how long have you been told the POV as seen through the eyes of Monergists.......but you insist on attempting to shot gun your dogma on others. There is a pattern here that you either refuse to accept or your cronically obsessive. In either case, I could care less. I have stated my POV(that salvation is entirely of God otherwise God's honor would be diminished) & I'm done, you can take the marbles & go home. And you can have the last word if you like, :laugh: But let me leave you with this; (Ephesians 2:8-9)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ah, you don't have to get mad.