Some arguments against Calvinism

[prophet]

Your post just illustrated my point.
no human interaction between God and man when it comes to eternal salvation.
Job didn't have a gospel to hear, but he knew of a Redeemer.
He knew of Adam's transgression and that Adam tried to cover his transgression before God (31:33).
Which tells us that the promise of a Redeemer for God's people was known and believed by God's people down through the ages.

Num 12:6
6 And he said, Hear now my words:If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

Revelation requires the above interaction.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Num 12:6
6 And he said, Hear now my words:If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

Revelation requires the above interaction.

so, you're saying God spoke to Job in a dream and told him of the coming redeemer ?
I won't contest that.
the only problem I have with the Scripture you're quoting is God spoke these words to Moses AFTER Job spoke of the Redeemer loooong before Moses led Israel out of Egypt.

 

[convicted1]

I forgot to ask Willis, where do the scriptures say our image was marred by Adam's sin? I would really like to see that scripture.

I think Jeremiah seeing the clay on the wheel is an good example....

 

[convicted1]

Boy, too bad you guys weren't around to correct Paul, he not only believed a man took part in his own salvation, but he believed a man took part in other folks salvation as well.

1 Tim 4:6 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Paul must not have been a Calvinist.

Paul was addressing the saved, and not sinners. Major difference....

 

[Winman]

Paul was addressing the saved, and not sinners. Major difference....

I don't think so Willis. I think the persons who "hear" Timothy is referring to the unsaved and unregenerated who hear the gospel from Timothy.

And them that hear thee - That is, you will be the means of their salvation. It is not necessary to suppose that the apostle meant to teach that he would save all that heard him. The declaration is to be understood in a popular sense, and it is undoubtedly true that a faithful minister will be the means of saving many sinners. This assurance furnishes a ground of encouragement for a minister of the gospel. He may hope for success, and should look for success. He has the promise of God that if he is faithful he shall see the fruit of his labors, and this result of his work is a sufficient reward for all the toils and sacrifices and self-denials of the ministry. If a minister should be the means of saving but one soul from the horrors of eternal suffering and eternal sinning, it would be worth the most self-denying labors of the longest life. Yet what minister of the gospel is there, who is at all faithful to his trust, who is not made the honored instrument of the salvation of many more than one? Few are the devoted ministers of Christ who are not permitted to see evidence even here, that their labor has not been in vain. Let not, then, the faithful preacher be discouraged. A single soul rescued from death will be a gem in his eternal crown brighter by far than ever sparkled on the brow of royalty.

It must be very tiring to be a Calvinist, you must always be explaining away scripture. :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

1 Timothy 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace, from God our Father, and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul is speaking expressly to Timothy concerning things leading up to verse 16...your post says 1 Tim. 4:6, when it's really 1 Tim. 4:16…...anyhoo...

He's telling him to practice what you preach, and those that hear you....let he who hath ears hear what the Spirit says…...and you and them shall be saved.

Yep....I explain scripture away....:wavey::tongue3::flower:

 

[RLBosley]

wow... 9 pages in 5 days. You guys need another hobby.

After catching up I have to say it is both amusing and sad to see how much the Arminians here must misrepresent the Calvinists to even give the appearance of having a defensible position.

Ah well. At the end of it all:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases. - Psa 115:3

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is a good point to add to this conversation. Just why does one believe what they believe when it comes to establishing the Word of God as they read it?

1) Human preachers/teachers have insisted their student apply the Word as they present it or face ostracization/shunning, as practiced by groups such as the Amish and JW's.

2) Human preachers/teachers allow the Holy Spirit to either confirm or reject the human "explanations" and the student may discern by the Holy Spirit the life application of God's Word.

Model #1 would equate to one preaching hell fire upon their congregation in order to make them follow a set "explanations" of Scripture. In this model the Holy Spirit is pushed aside and it is the preacher's convictions that are to be followed.

Model #2 would plant seed and water as God commanded and allow God through the work of the Holy Spirit to have the final application of the Word and the glory all Goes to God.

When you say you would like to have a separated church, as in you must believe TULIP or we do not want you in our congregation, nor do we want to fellowship with you, are you really following God's teaching in the Scriptures?

One can take the cult approach to Scripture and establishing congregations or families, and they may think this immunes their subjects from exposure to what they perceive as "false doctrines", but praise be to God, He did not let it up to man entirely to teach, He gave the Holy Spirit to assure man was not having the last word on these matters. Even in these cults the Spirit breaks through and saves some and leads them out, setting them free indeed.

We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account, and this is even more serious for those who delve into the teaching/preaching realm. When I teach/preach, I will present the Word of God as I see it after much prayer and study, when there are subjects of controversy I will give the differing views, and when finished I will have peace that I did my part, it is God who will either confirm what I have taught, or will reject what I have taught to the hearts and minds of the students.

Look I'm just saying I don't want free will and universal attonement taught in churches I attend so I go to thems that dont. I also don't wanna see charasmatics or Catholics bringing their junk into my church. If you do attempt that then I'm going to personally throw you out on your parse. Now there are people here on this here board who told me to go to a free will church if there are no DoG churches around.....so do you want me being Evangelist....cause I'm going to proclaim Gods sovereign grace very loud and very proud....I don't think that's what you want.

 

[steaver]

Ah well. At the end of it all:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases. - Psa 115:3

Amen! :thumbsup:

After catching up I have to say it is both amusing and sad to see how much the Arminians here must misrepresent the Calvinists to even give the appearance of having a defensible position.

Actually, I see a lot of Calvinist misrepresenting non-Cals. Like the example you just posted above, as though non-Cals do not believe our God is in heaven and that He does all that He pleases.

You will find many quotes from Calvinist declaring that God is Fully Sovereign, and God is not bound by man's freewill, and salvation is ALL of God, and such, as though non-Cals do not believe and teach as much. These are all misrepresentations of non-Cals beliefs.

Both sides are using the exact same Scriptures. The debate is not over what God said, it is over the exposition and application of what God said.

I am a non-Cal, and I fully believe that it is by grace that I am saved through faith, and this not of myself, it is a gift from God. That I am created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has foreordained that I should walk in them.

If you believe everything which comes to past is ordained of God, then you may take note that God has ordained quite a few of His born-again children to preach the gospel from the freewill pov. Now why would God do that?

 

[steaver]

. Now there are people here on this here board who told me to go to a free will church if there are no DoG churches around.....so do you want me being Evangelist....cause I'm going to proclaim Gods sovereign grace very loud and very proud....I don't think that's what you want.

Absolutely preach it brother! :thumbsup: I proclaim God's sovereign grace all the time! Freewill does not oppose sovereign grace, it operates within it to the glory of Jesus Christ......whosoever will.....come.

 

[Winman]

1 Timothy 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace, from God our Father, and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul is speaking expressly to Timothy concerning things leading up to verse 16...your post says 1 Tim. 4:6, when it's really 1 Tim. 4:16…...anyhoo...

He's telling him to practice what you preach, and those that hear you....let he who hath ears hear what the Spirit says…...and you and them shall be saved.

Yep....I explain scripture away....:wavey::tongue3::flower:

Yes, it was verse 16, my mistake.

I never denied Paul was speaking to Timothy, where do you get that?

But those persons who "hear" Timothy and get saved are sinners. God uses men to save sinners, plain as day. And sinners must "hear" to be saved. Men are involved in their own salvation. It is everywhere in scripture, it cannot be denied.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said "the dead" shall hear his voice. Not the living, the dead. The dead. And those that hear shall live. They must hear Willis. It takes the cooperation of the sinner Willis. Those that refuse to hear will not live, but those who do hear shall live.

I would feel foolish to be a Calvinist, it's like denying the nose on your face.

 

[RLBosley]

Amen! :thumbsup:

Actually, I see a lot of Calvinist misrepresenting non-Cals. Like the example you just posted above, as though non-Cals do not believe our God is in heaven and that He does all that He pleases.

You will find many quotes from Calvinist declaring that God is Fully Sovereign, and God is not bound by man's freewill, and salvation is ALL of God, and such, as though non-Cals do not believe and teach as much. These are all misrepresentations of non-Cals beliefs.

The problem is they may say such things, but then contradict themselves by saying that their faith causes them to be regenerated, or that God elects on the basis of foreseen faith. That flies in the face of saying that salvation is ALL of God. After all, all means all and that's all all means right??? :laugh:

Both sides are using the exact same Scriptures. The debate is not over what God said, it is over the exposition and application of what God said.

Yup.

I am a non-Cal, and I fully believe that it is by grace that I am saved through faith, and this not of myself, it is a gift from God. That I am created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has foreordained that I should walk in them.

OK. As I've said numerous times, this is an "in house" issue. Aside from the outright heretics (hypers on either side) we are brothers and sisters.

If you believe everything which comes to past is ordained of God, then you may take note that God has ordained quite a few of His born-again children to preach the gospel from the freewill pov. Now why would God do that?

Yes he has. I believe that is to glorify himself by saving his people even when they have differing views on the finer points of doctrine. Same as there are varying eschatological views and theories of the atonement. God doesn't require, nor has he ordained, that all the saved have perfect theology in order to inherit his kingdom. :godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amen! :thumbsup:



Actually, I see a lot of Calvinist misrepresenting non-Cals. Like the example you just posted above, as though non-Cals do not believe our God is in heaven and that He does all that He pleases.

You will find many quotes from Calvinist declaring that God is Fully Sovereign, and God is not bound by man's freewill, and salvation is ALL of God, and such, as though non-Cals do not believe and teach as much. These are all misrepresentations of non-Cals beliefs.

Both sides are using the exact same Scriptures. The debate is not over what God said, it is over the exposition and application of what God said.

I am a non-Cal, and I fully believe that it is by grace that I am saved through faith, and this not of myself, it is a gift from God. That I am created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has foreordained that I should walk in them.

If you believe everything which comes to past is ordained of God, then you may take note that God has ordained quite a few of His born-again children to preach the gospel from the freewill pov. Now why would God do that?

I don't think he has.....but if I was to tell you what I truly believe you would probably get upset with me soooo I will stay silent and keep the peace.

 

[RLBosley]

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said "the dead" shall hear his voice. Not the living, the dead. The dead. And those that hear shall live. They must hear Willis. It takes the cooperation of the sinner Willis. Those that refuse to hear will not live, but those who do hear shall live.

How in the world do you get that the DEAD can cooperate?? Where is there presented, in that passage, any cooperation? The Lord speaks, and "those who hear" are made alive.

They can refuse? Do you really see any evidence there that they can refuse?

I would feel foolish to be a Calvinist, it's like denying the nose on your face.

You should feel foolish for having posted the above.

 

[Winman]

The problem is they may say such things, but then contradict themselves by saying that their faith causes them to be regenerated, or that God elects on the basis of foreseen faith. That flies in the face of saying that salvation is ALL of God. After all, all means all and that's all all means right??? :laugh:

What Calvinists cannot seem to grasp is that God could DEMAND the cooperation of sinners. That is HOW he has chosen to save people, he only wants to save those who are willing.

Are you saying God could not choose this method to save people? Why not?

Yup.

OK. As I've said numerous times, this is an "in house" issue. Aside from the outright heretics (hypers on either side) we are brothers and sisters.

Hypers are consistent Calvinists. They follow the doctrine where it leads.

Yes he has. I believe that is to glorify himself by saving his people even when they have differing views on the finer points of doctrine. Same as there are varying eschatological views and theories of the atonement. God doesn't require, nor has he ordained, that all the saved have perfect theology in order to inherit his kingdom. :godisgood:

If you are a Calvinist you must believe God wants differing views of salvation. This would make God the author of confusion. But scripture says God is not the author of confusion.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So there must be a misunderstanding somewhere.

 

[RLBosley]

What Calvinists cannot seem to grasp is that God could DEMAND the cooperation of sinners. That is HOW he has chosen to save people, he only wants to save those who are willing.

Are you saying God could not choose this method to save people? Why not?

Your reading comprehension seriously needs work. How on earth did you get that I was saying anything like that??

Hypers are consistent Calvinists. They follow the doctrine where it leads.

And Open Theists are the only consistent Arminians. They follow the doctrine where it leads.

If you are a Calvinist you must believe God wants differing views of salvation. This would make God the author of confusion. But scripture says God is not the author of confusion.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So there must be a misunderstanding somewhere.

Yes. The misunderstanding is in your interpretation.

This verse has been abused by so many, in an attempt to stop any change or any deviation from tradition. Sam Gipp even tries to use this verse to say that the KJV should be the only Bible used, since you know the other translations cause "confusion" when read aloud. :laugh:

Never mind that has NOTHING at all to do with the context!

For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. - 1Co 14:31-33 NASB

Wow. That changes things a bit eh? Clearly the discussion is on the proper place and order for people to speak, prophesy and tongues specifically, in the church gathering.

Context. What an amazing thing. :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

The problem is they may say such things, but then contradict themselves by saying that their faith causes them to be regenerated,

The Calvinist places God in their nicely constructed box, having God bound by their applications of the scriptures. one example; In this world we have many types of fathers. In many Muslim cultures the father decides for his daughter whom she shall marry, the daughter has no say in the matter. In many other cultures the father allows his daughter to make her own choice. Both fathers maintain their sovereign power to implement their own plans for their daughter's marriages, one using his sovereign power to restrict, the other using his sovereign power to extend freewill.

God extends a freewill offer to His creation, God is sovereign, God is allowed to do this, He is God, He can declare it, or anything else, be so. This is what we see revealed throughout the scriptures.

That flies in the face of saying that salvation is ALL of God. After all, all means all and that's all all means right

Not at all. No one can rebirth themselves, only God can do this, it is a sole act of God, salvation is ALL of God. God allowing His subjects a choice is not taking salvation away from God, the whole of the plan is Gods, it is ALL of God.

 

[steaver]

I don't think he has.....but if I was to tell you what I truly believe you would probably get upset with me soooo I will stay silent and keep the peace.

Now brother, you know me by now that I do not get upset with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love to learn other's views and opinions, sometimes they have an effect on my own, oftentimes after 16 years of learning they will not. You will not see personal insults ever from me. I have personal friends who are Calvinist. They are just a little misguided :tongue3:

:1_grouphug:

 

[RLBosley]

The Calvinist places God in their nicely constructed box, having God bound by their applications of the scriptures. one example; In this world we have many types of fathers. In many Muslim cultures the father decides for his daughter whom she shall marry, the daughter has no say in the matter. In many other cultures the father allows his daughter to make her own choice. Both fathers maintain their sovereign power to implement their own plans for their daughter's marriages, one using his sovereign power to restrict, the other using his sovereign power to extend freewill.

So the Arminian doesn't place God in a box? Please.

God extends a freewill offer to His creation, God is sovereign, God is allowed to do this, He is God, He can declare it, or anything else, be so. This is what we see revealed throughout the scriptures.

Where?

Yes we see the open proclamation of the gospel. This doesn't require libertarian freewill however. Instead we see God opening hearts. God causing people to be born again. God drawing sinners. God giving life to the dead. God ordaining to eternal life. God showing mercy. God hardening. God giving up to reprobation.

Not at all. No one can rebirth themselves, only God can do this, it is a sole act of God, salvation is ALL of God. God allowing His subjects a choice is not taking salvation away from God, the whole of the plan is Gods, it is ALL of God.

Is the "whole plan" God's or is the whole of salvation God's? There is a difference.

 

[kyredneck]

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