Some arguments against Calvinism

[RLBosley]

Calvinists tell me they do not know who the elect are, so how can you know you are elect?

I know I am saved because I believed on Jesus Christ to save me. The word of God tells me I am saved.

That's regarding evangelism. We share the gospel with all because we do not know the elect. I have the same assurance as you, based on the same reason. I can also say "I know I am saved because I believed on Jesus Christ to save me. The word of God tells me I am saved."

God absolutely determined that Jesus would willingly go to the cross. But God did not determine those Jews would take Jesus and crucify him, God never as so much tempts any man to sin.

God simply knew they would take Jesus and crucify him, just as God knew Joseph's brothers would sell him as a slave when a caravan came by in the OT.

That doesn't make sense. God absolutely determined that Jesus would go to the cross, but did not determine how, when or where he would be crucified? It was random chance then that the Romans were in control over Judea in Jesus day and had an affinity for nailing people to trees? Do you not see how ridiculous that is?

God doesn't need to tempt anyone, he knows what they will choose to do of their own free will, and he works that into his plan.

No scripture ever says such a thing. However we frequently have affirmations of God's direction over all, even the most mundane, things:

Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."

Prov. 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

Isaiah 45:6-7,That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Acts 17:26, “and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,”

God even predetermined the atrocities in war committed against his own people:

[Isa 37:26-27 NASB] "Have you not heard? Long ago I did it, From ancient times I planned it. Now I have brought it to pass, That you should turn fortified cities into ruinous heaps. "Therefore their inhabitants were short of strength, They were dismayed and put to shame; They were as the vegetation of the field and as the green herb, As grass on the housetops is scorched before it is grown up." - Spoken by Isaiah, as the word of God against the King of Assyria, who at that moment, had Jerusalem surrounded.

The Jews had tried to kill Jesus on at least two other occasions. On these occasions Jesus did not allow himself to be killed, as it was not the proper time or place. Jesus had to die on the Passover as the Passover Lamb.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Luk 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

These two passages prove God did not cause the Jews to kill Jesus, because they had tried at least twice before to kill him, both times Jesus had to escape because it was not the proper time for him to die. The Jews wanted to kill him nevertheless.

What? I honestly can't understand how you come to such a conclusion. All it proves is that God was at work restraining wicked men from killing Jesus before his predetermined time.

"Jesus had to die on the Passover as the Passover Lamb." yes, in accordance with his infallible, predetermined plan.

No, I am trying to explain that foreknowledge does not equal predestination. Like I said, I knew beforehand that all my children would sin, but I did not determine or cause them to sin, and it was not my will that they sin.

God does not want anybody to sin, he simply knows beforehand what they will freely choose to do.

So according to your logic God did not want or intend for the Son to be killed. Is that what you believe?

The Father did want Jesus to die on the cross for our sins, but he did not force Jesus. Jesus chose to be crucified for our sins, he could have requested rescue if he did not want to die for us, and God would have rescued him (Mat 26:53).

God did not determine or cause the Jews to kill Jesus, they were acting of their own free will. God simply knew beforehand exactly what they would do and used this to bring about his plan.

You contradict yourself. You just said "God does not want anybody to sin" yet here you say the Father did want Jesus to die. Is not the murder of the sinless Son of God the most horrific sin in history? Did it not please the Lord to crush the Son?

You misunderstand Matt 26:53. He is simply telling Peter that his attempt to intervene is unnecessary (and unchristian). It does not mean that God would suddenly change his plan. Even though all those angels were at Jesus' command, he would not call them as this was the plan. If this were not to happen it would not, as he could receive help from the Father, however the eternal plan of God was for the Son to be sacrificed. The Son went willingly yes, but the whole Triune Godhead had determined exactly what, when, where and how it would happen.

Sure, anybody can foreknow what they have determined to do, what is special about that? You can do that. No, foreknowledge is the supernatural ability to know what free agents will freely choose to do before they do it. Now that is special. You can't do that, and neither can I.

Scripture never presents God's foreknowledge nor his foreknowing of people as merely knowing people's future actions.

Foreknowledge is always according to God's own choice, not the creatures choice. In other words, it really is simply God knowing what will occur becasue he has decided it will occur.

[Act 2:23 NASB] this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

[1Pe 1:1-2 NASB]...who are chosen (Elect KJV) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Foreknowing is always towards individuals. People are foreknown, not actions. This is God's knowing before hand, his chosen of certain people and his loving of them. Even Christ.

[Rom 8:29 NASB] For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

[Rom 11:2 NASB] God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

[1Pe 1:20 NASB] For He (Christ) was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

I disagree, I believe God can know what free agents will freely choose to do. This is the only way God cannot be the author of sin. He did not make or cause the Jews to kill Jesus, he freely allowed it (and so did Jesus) so that Jesus could die for our Passover. But God did not make the Jews kill Jesus, they were acting on their own.

My view does not make God the author of sin as your view does.

Sure God theoretically could. But the question is what does scripture say, and it affirms God's direction of all things. Yet he is still without sin.

 

[RLBosley]

No, I believe it would be far better for us to part company from the Arminian, separate in churches, establish our own houses of worship & teach our children our own set of beliefs. I see these people as no better than Catholics & (perhaps because I came out of the RC), I dont want my family associating with them. I want to raise my kids up to understand scripture the way I do, not the way the Arminian does. Look, I will work with them, make friends with them, eat with them but I dont want to associate with them in my or my families spiritual life.....same goes for Catholics, Jews, etc.

I wasn't saying I was going to send my daughter to his Sunday School class! Heck no, I wouldn't either! I was just saying we can be polite (mostly) and regard each other as Christians. Provided he doesn't slip into pelagianism or open theism (Not an accusation BTW. Just noticing that one frequently leads to the other.).

I believe the Arm v Cal debate is a, largely, "in-house" debate. Squabbling family members, as it were. Are there extremists? Heretics? Absolutely! On both sides! They should all be avoided.

 

[Winman]

That's regarding evangelism. We share the gospel with all because we do not know the elect. I have the same assurance as you, based on the same reason. I can also say "I know I am saved because I believed on Jesus Christ to save me. The word of God tells me I am saved."

Funny, I have read several articles by Calvinists themselves that say doubting their salvation is a major problem among Calvinists.

It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.

Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

I have read other articles by Calvinists such as John Piper that say lack of assurance is a major problem with Calvinists. Seems the biggest problem is knowing whether one is truly elect or not.

That doesn't make sense. God absolutely determined that Jesus would go to the cross, but did not determine how, when or where he would be crucified? It was random chance then that the Romans were in control over Judea in Jesus day and had an affinity for nailing people to trees? Do you not see how ridiculous that is?

God knew exactly what would happen and when. Scripture predicted Judas would betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver probably several hundred years before it actually happened.

Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

No scripture ever says such a thing. However we frequently have affirmations of God's direction over all, even the most mundane, things:

Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."

Prov. 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

Isaiah 45:6-7,That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Acts 17:26, “and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,”

Nevertheless, James 1:13 says God never tempts any man to sin. Killing Jesus was a sin, so God could not have possibly caused or tempted the Jews to do this.

If God in his foreknowledge knew the Jews would kill Jesus of their own free will, then he is not the author of sin. Your view makes him the author of sin.

God even predetermined the atrocities in war committed against his own people:

[Isa 37:26-27 NASB] "Have you not heard? Long ago I did it, From ancient times I planned it. Now I have brought it to pass, That you should turn fortified cities into ruinous heaps. "Therefore their inhabitants were short of strength, They were dismayed and put to shame; They were as the vegetation of the field and as the green herb, As grass on the housetops is scorched before it is grown up." - Spoken by Isaiah, as the word of God against the King of Assyria, who at that moment, had Jerusalem surrounded.

Again, God allows enemies to attack and destroy the Jews, but he did not make them do it, God does not make people sin.

What? I honestly can't understand how you come to such a conclusion. All it proves is that God was at work restraining wicked men from killing Jesus before his predetermined time.

It proves they hated Jesus of their own free will. Why would God make them hate Jesus and want to kill him before the proper time? You are not thinking this out.

"Jesus had to die on the Passover as the Passover Lamb." yes, in accordance with his infallible, predetermined plan.

Yes, God knew the Jews were planning to kill Jesus, and looking for him to come to the Passover as an opportunity to capture him. But Jesus did not allow himself to be taken until the proper hour.

Jhn 7:30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

So according to your logic God did not want or intend for the Son to be killed. Is that what you believe?

You are not paying attention. From God's perspective, he wanted Jesus to willingly lay down his life for the people. And from Jesus's perspective, he willingly chose to lay down his life for the people.

Jhn 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus didn't HAVE to die on the cross. He could have prayed for rescue, and Jesus said his Father SHOULD send more that 12 legions of angels to help him.

Nevertheless, God did not make the Jews take Jesus and kill him, he just knew they would. God does not make any person sin.

Why can't you understand this?

You contradict yourself. You just said "God does not want anybody to sin" yet here you say the Father did want Jesus to die. Is not the murder of the sinless Son of God the most horrific sin in history? Did it not please the Lord to crush the Son?

Yes, it is a terrible sin. But God did not make the Jews kill Jesus, they did it of their own free will. They would have done it earlier if Jesus hadn't escaped from them.

You misunderstand Matt 26:53. He is simply telling Peter that his attempt to intervene is unnecessary (and unchristian). It does not mean that God would suddenly change his plan. Even though all those angels were at Jesus' command, he would not call them as this was the plan. If this were not to happen it would not, as he could receive help from the Father, however the eternal plan of God was for the Son to be sacrificed. The Son went willingly yes, but the whole Triune Godhead had determined exactly what, when, where and how it would happen.

No, he is telling Peter he could call on his Father, and his Father would send over 12 legions of angels to rescue him. God the Father didn't FORCE Jesus to give himself for our sins. Jesus died WILLINGLY. Nevertheless, God didn't make the Jews kill Jesus, he just KNEW they would.

Scripture never presents God's foreknowledge nor his foreknowing of people as merely knowing people's future actions.

Foreknowledge is always according to God's own choice, not the creatures choice. In other words, it really is simply God knowing what will occur becasue he has decided it will occur.

[Act 2:23 NASB] this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

[1Pe 1:1-2 NASB]...who are chosen (Elect KJV) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Foreknowing is always towards individuals. People are foreknown, not actions. This is God's knowing before hand, his chosen of certain people and his loving of them. Even Christ.

(Three verses deleted because post was too long to post)- Sorry

And Acts 2:23 refutes your view, here foreknowledge is speaking of an act that would take place, not knowing someone intimately.

Sure God theoretically could. But the question is what does scripture say, and it affirms God's direction of all things. Yet he is still without sin.

God is without sin because he actually never sins. God does not make or tempt any man to sin, otherwise James 1:13 would be a lie, and God would be a sinner.

My view of foreknowledge agrees with scripture without contradiction or problem, your view of foreknowledge makes God the author of sin and contradicts James 1:13.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Funny, I have read several articles by Calvinists themselves that say doubting their salvation is a major problem among Calvinists.

Read more than. Try reading anything by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Everywhere you turn, its about assurance.

 

[Greektim]

If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot be faulted for his sins.

This is not what total depravity and inability is all about. Man cannot b/c he will not. Man cannot believe b/c he never will believe w/out the intervening of God. Man hates God and is opposed to God. No man seeks him. No man wants him. That is unless God changes his desires and wants. This then leads to the disagreement about the measure of God's intervention.

Also, could Israel ever keep the 10 commandments? Could they ever keep the law? If not (if yes we got other problems), then by the logic of your question, they should not be held responsible.

If God has already elected those who are going to heaven, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God's path?
Your traditional Calvinist would proclaim, "Because God told us so!" But if God has already elected those who will be going to heaven, no amount of influence from Christians will change who is elected or not. Evangelism may be the means of how God saves the elect, but our conscience decision to not evangelize will not affect the elect.

Because God said to. That and the means as well as the ends are ordained by God. How will they hear without a preacher? How is the nail plunged into the wood w/out the swinging of the hammer?

If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family.
Basically, God has already predestined the events and no appealing to God will likely change his mind- it has already been predestined and cannot be changed.

Jesus makes the point that God knows what you are going to pray for even before you ask. So you have the same dilemma, Calvi or no.

Perhaps, prayer is more of an exercise for the person praying rather than a plea to change God's plan. I pray that God will effectually bring about the conversion of an individual by quickening their heart, removing the heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh, by granting them repentance and gifting them with the necessary faith. God is sovereign, and I don't know his plan. Therefore, I pray w/ that understanding that God can do it. Nevertheless, your will be done, Father.

 

[Winman]

Read more than. Try reading anything by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Everywhere you turn, its about assurance.

A Calvinist cannot have true assurance, because they believe they must persevere to the end to be saved.

Oh, I know you will say Jesus makes sure you persevere, but Calvinists also believe MANY folks fall away, and this proves they were never saved. A Calvinist can never be 100% sure he will persevere to the end.

Non-Cals like myself do not believe in perseverance, we believe in Preservation of the Saint. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We are the sons of God NOW. We cannot fall away in unbelief because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us, and we cannot sin (continuous, as unbelief would be). 1 John 3:9

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I don't need to read Martin Lloyd-Jones, just my Bible. :thumbs:

 

[Greektim]

A Calvinist cannot have true assurance, because they believe they must persevere to the end to be saved.

Oh, I know you will say Jesus makes sure you persevere, but Calvinists also believe MANY folks fall away, and this proves they were never saved. A Calvinist can never be 100% sure he will persevere to the end.

Non-Cals like myself do not believe in perseverance, we believe in Preservation of the Saint. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We are the sons of God NOW. We cannot fall away in unbelief because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us, and we cannot sin (continuous, as unbelief would be). 1 John 3:9

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I don't need to read Martin Lloyd-Jones, just my Bible. :thumbs:

Very calvie and very assured in my salvation. It helps to see my growth, remember what I was like, and where I am now. I understand the logic of Winman's point about assurance. But practically speaking, it has never been a problem for me.

 

[RLBosley]

Funny, I have read several articles by Calvinists themselves that say doubting their salvation is a major problem among Calvinists.



http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

I have read other articles by Calvinists such as John Piper that say lack of assurance is a major problem with Calvinists. Seems the biggest problem is knowing whether one is truly elect or not.

I never said that no Calvinist ever doubts his salvation. I said that we have the same assurance that we are saved because we trust in Jesus.

Likewise, the Arminian has no assurance since they may sin and fall away at any point.

God knew exactly what would happen and when. Scripture predicted Judas would betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver probably several hundred years before it actually happened.

Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

OK. But how did God know? Did he look down through time and see what people would do? No.

[Isa 46:9-10 NASB] "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

How is God able to declare the end from the beginning? Not simply because he is omniscient and knows all things, but because he "will accomplish all [his] good pleasure." God will accomplish whatever he wants. That is how.

Nevertheless, James 1:13 says God never tempts any man to sin. Killing Jesus was a sin, so God could not have possibly caused or tempted the Jews to do this.

If God in his foreknowledge knew the Jews would kill Jesus of their own free will, then he is not the author of sin. Your view makes him the author of sin.

"Nevertheless." Just dismiss the clear teaching of the complete sovereignty of God over all things with a word. I don't like it so I disagree. You offer no other interpretation, just dismiss it out of hand.

Again, God allows enemies to attack and destroy the Jews, but he did not make them do it, God does not make people sin.

No, no, no. Read the text! He DID cause it.

[Isa 37:26-27 NASB] "Have you not heard? Long ago I did it, From ancient times I planned it. Now I have brought it to pass, That you should turn fortified cities into ruinous heaps. "Therefore their inhabitants were short of strength, They were dismayed and put to shame; They were as the vegetation of the field and as the green herb, As grass on the housetops is scorched before it is grown up." - Spoken by Isaiah, as the word of God against the King of Assyria, who at that moment, had Jerusalem surrounded.

God, absolutely, was the primary cause of everything the King of Assyria did. Yet God is without sin, and if you read further, you actually see God holding the king responsible for his sin.

It proves they hated Jesus of their own free will. Why would God make them hate Jesus and want to kill him before the proper time? You are not thinking this out.

Yes, God knew the Jews were planning to kill Jesus, and looking for him to come to the Passover as an opportunity to capture him. But Jesus did not allow himself to be taken until the proper hour.

Jhn 7:30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

There is nothing of free will anywhere there. Instead I see a specific "hour" set aside as the apparently predetermined time in which Jesus would die. Do you not see how clear this is?

You are not paying attention. From God's perspective, he wanted Jesus to willingly lay down his life for the people. And from Jesus's perspective, he willingly chose to lay down his life for the people.

Jhn 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus didn't HAVE to die on the cross. He could have prayed for rescue, and Jesus said his Father SHOULD send more that 12 legions of angels to help him.

Nevertheless, God did not make the Jews take Jesus and kill him, he just knew they would. God does not make any person sin.

Why can't you understand this?

Because it is inconsistent and doesn't make sense. It was Gods determined plan that Jesus would be handed over to them to be executed. Not only did God want Jesus to willingly lay down his life, but he also wanted (it pleased the Father) Jesus to die. The death itself, as a sacrifice, was pleasing to God, not just the way it occurred, i.e., not just that the Son was willing.

Yes, it is a terrible sin. But God did not make the Jews kill Jesus, they did it of their own free will. They would have done it earlier if Jesus hadn't escaped from them.

No, he is telling Peter he could call on his Father, and his Father would send over 12 legions of angels to rescue him. God the Father didn't FORCE Jesus to give himself for our sins. Jesus died WILLINGLY. Nevertheless, God didn't make the Jews kill Jesus, he just KNEW they would.

Again, it was done according to God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge. Yes they chose to do it, but God decreed that it would happen.

This is really getting pointless. You keep saying the same things and so do I.

And Acts 2:23 refutes your view, here foreknowledge is speaking of an act that would take place, not knowing someone intimately.

You misunderstood something. I said:

"Foreknowledge is always according to God's own choice, not the creatures choice. In other words, it really is simply God knowing what will occur because he has decided it will occur."

100% consistent with Acts 2 and has nothing to do with knowing someone. That is foreknowing not foreknowledge. The act of foreknowing is always seen in relation to people.

God is without sin because he actually never sins. God does not make or tempt any man to sin, otherwise James 1:13 would be a lie, and God would be a sinner.

I agree! God doesn't tempt anyone nor does he force anyone to sin. God, somehow, had decreed all things, yet is not a sinner nor the author of sin.

The 1689 summarizes it well:

Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, Who is the First Cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly; so that nothing happens to anyone by chance, or outside His providence, yet by His providence He orders events to occur according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extends even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions of both angels and men.

- This is not merely by a bare permission, but by a form of permission in which He included the most wise and powerful limitations, and other means of restricting and controlling sin. These various limitations have been designed by God to bring about his most holy purposes.

- Yet, in all these affairs, the sinfulness of both angels and men comes only from them and not from God, Who is altogether holy and righteous, and can never be the author or approver of sin.

My view of foreknowledge agrees with scripture without contradiction or problem, your view of foreknowledge makes God the author of sin and contradicts James 1:13.

Your view is a mass of contradiction, both internally and with regard to the word of God.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot be faulted for his sins.

False. The Bible says that the law and our inability to keep the law is to be an illustration of our sinfulness.

If God has already elected those who are going to heaven, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God's path?

For two reasons, not the least of which is, because Christ said so.

First, because we are commanded to.

Second, because, from an Earthly perspective, we don't know who the elect are. The elect aren't given a free pass simply because they're elect. They still have to hear the Gospel and respond to it. So how are the elect saved if they don't hear the Gospel?

Third, because whether someone responds to the Gospel or not, God is still glorified by the preaching of the Gospel. Someone who hears the Gospel and does not respond will glorify God in their judgment just as much as someone who hears the Gospel and is saved will glorify Him in their salvation.

Your traditional Calvinist would proclaim, "Because God told us so!" But if God has already elected those who will be going to heaven, no amount of influence from Christians will change who is elected or not.

See above.

Evangelism may be the means of how God saves the elect, but our conscience decision to not evangelize will not affect the elect.

Unbiblical nonsense refuted above.

If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family.

First, you're confusing sovereignty with fatalism.

Second, you've misunderstood the purpose of prayer. The purpose of prayer is not to change God's mind or God's will, but to conform our own will to His.

Basically, God has already predestined the events and no appealing to God will likely change his mind- it has already been predestined and cannot be changed.

See above.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Very calvie and very assured in my salvation. It helps to see my growth, remember what I was like, and where I am now. I understand the logic of Winman's point about assurance. But practically speaking, it has never been a problem for me.

I don't know where he gets this stuff from......perhaps Spurgeons sermon "The Blessings of Full Assurance "is in order here.

 

[RLBosley]

I don't know where he gets this stuff from......perhaps Spurgeons sermon "The Blessings of Full Assurance "is in order here.

No! he'll somehow end up with Spurgeon saying we can never be assured and are all in danger of being killed and thrown in hell every moment.

 

[RLBosley]

Anyway. I want to let you know, Winman, that I am getting off here for today and will not likely be on for the rest of the week. I have a long 4 day break ahead, and am planning on doing lots of family time, study time, and art time. If i do not respond to any other posts here or on any of our other discussions for a while, that is why.

So don't think I am throwing in the towel in the debate. Just have more important things to do.

 

[convicted1]

Wow Willis, we actually agree for once. Sinners are able to do good, and do good on a frequent basis, but as you said, sin mars and tears their coat of righteousness so that it is a filthy rag.

What I mean is giving to the poor, dying for a loved one, helping someone build a house, running marathons to raise money for breast cancer...Susan G. Komen foundation for example, all the good deeds are still sin in God's eyes. Anyone w/o the righteousness of Christ clothed upon them, is a sinner, and God deals with them as sinners, no matter what good they do. The plowing of the wicked is sin. Apostle Paul even said though I offer myself to be burned, if I have not charity, it profits me nothing. Everything a sinner does is sin in God's eyes is sin b/c of their standing opposed to Him.

But I must ask, if sinners can do good as you seem to agree with me, why is the ONE thing they can't do is repent and believe the gospel?

Feeding the poor, donating money to help the needy, giving clothes to Salvation Army and Goodwill, sitting with the sick, every type of person does this. Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, gays and lesbians, et al. Just because they can do these things doesn't mean the will believe in the gospel. Faith and repentance are gifts of God and are not inherent in them. It takes faith AND repentance, and these are gifts of God. The goats will never have these two necessities, thereby, making them unwillingly to repent and believe the gospel.

This is a passable argument. Not great, but passable. The NSA uses the same argument to strip search little old ladies and little children at airports, they don't know who the terrorists are.

Terrorists have used the elderly and children in their diabolical plans before, no? In regards to preaching/evangelizing the gospel...none of us know who will repent and believe the gospel, so we tell everyone to do it. The gospel calls the sheep out from the goats. You keep making that "rolleyes face", and it get stuck... :tongue3:

Well, regeneration is conversion, you are either spiritually dead or alive. Once you have been made spiritually alive, what does conversion do for you?

Regeneration brings sinners from a state of ________ to __________:
Deafness to hearing...let he who has ears hear....
Blindness to seeing....they see their sinful and run to Him for mercy....
Death to life...you which were dead has been now quickened....
Rebellion to reconciliation....
Rejection to acceptance....
Hating God to loving God....

Regeneration changes the position of the heart, Brother Wes. The new heart is one of love. The old one was stony and full of hate.

This is not a passable argument. If God passes you by, then obviously it is his will that you perish. Own it.

Bingo. None of His sheep will perish. He sent their Shepherd, and He will all His sheep into the fold. The goats remain where they'r at, having no desire to hear what He says....

 

[Winman]

I never said that no Calvinist ever doubts his salvation. I said that we have the same assurance that we are saved because we trust in Jesus.

Likewise, the Arminian has no assurance since they may sin and fall away at any point.

I would disagree. The Calvinist must doubt, because he cannot be completely sure he will persevere.

I am not an Arminian, I do not believe I can fall away, I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is much different than Perseverance.

OK. But how did God know? Did he look down through time and see what people would do? No.

Well, I don't know if I like the term "look down through time", but God has always known what every man will choose to do.

[Isa 46:9-10 NASB] "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

How is God able to declare the end from the beginning? Not simply because he is omniscient and knows all things, but because he "will accomplish all [his] good pleasure." God will accomplish whatever he wants. That is how.

It says he declares things that have not been done. He sees what will surely happen. This is actually HOW he accomplishes his will. He knew Judas would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. He knew Judas would leave the last supper and go to the priests, and that they would send soldiers to capture Jesus in the garden. Jesus was waiting for them.

"Nevertheless." Just dismiss the clear teaching of the complete sovereignty of God over all things with a word. I don't like it so I disagree. You offer no other interpretation, just dismiss it out of hand.

It is you that is dismissing God's word, James 1:13 tells us God does not even tempt any man to sin. You don't seem to believe that.

No, no, no. Read the text! He DID cause it.

[Isa 37:26-27 NASB] "Have you not heard? Long ago I did it, From ancient times I planned it. Now I have brought it to pass, That you should turn fortified cities into ruinous heaps. "Therefore their inhabitants were short of strength, They were dismayed and put to shame; They were as the vegetation of the field and as the green herb, As grass on the housetops is scorched before it is grown up." - Spoken by Isaiah, as the word of God against the King of Assyria, who at that moment, had Jerusalem surrounded.

I am not denying that God planned it. God planned that Jesus would die on the cross for our sins and prophesied of it all the way back to the garden of Eden. Nevertheless, God does not make people sin.

God, absolutely, was the primary cause of everything the King of Assyria did. Yet God is without sin, and if you read further, you actually see God holding the king responsible for his sin.

If the King of Assyria was responsible, it is because he chose to do what he did of his own free will. God simply allowed it to fulfill his purpose that the Jews be punished for their sin.

You just can't get a hold on this can you?

There is nothing of free will anywhere there. Instead I see a specific "hour" set aside as the apparently predetermined time in which Jesus would die. Do you not see how clear this is?

Yes, it had to happen on Passover. That is why Jesus did not allow the Jews to kill him earlier when they tried.

Now why would God have made the Jews want to kill Jesus before the right time? You are not thinking this out, this proves my view and refutes yours.

Because it is inconsistent and doesn't make sense. It was Gods determined plan that Jesus would be handed over to them to be executed. Not only did God want Jesus to willingly lay down his life, but he also wanted (it pleased the Father) Jesus to die. The death itself, as a sacrifice, was pleasing to God, not just the way it occurred, i.e., not just that the Son was willing.

My view makes perfect sense and God is not the author of sin. God didn't kill Jesus, he willed that Jesus die for our sins, but he did not force Jesus. Likewise, Jesus willingly chose to lay down his life for us.

I guess an analogy would be soldier leaping on a hand grenade to save his buddies in the foxhole. This is not considered sin, it is considered being a hero.

Again, it was done according to God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge. Yes they chose to do it, but God decreed that it would happen.

This is really getting pointless. You keep saying the same things and so do I.

Yes, I am not going to change my view to yours, because that would make God the author of sin. No way I would EVER believe that.

You misunderstood something. I said:

"Foreknowledge is always according to God's own choice, not the creatures choice. In other words, it really is simply God knowing what will occur because he has decided it will occur."

No, foreknowledge is God seeing what people will freely choose to do. Here are two examples in scripture;

Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

The father was looking, and saw the prodigal son when he was still a great way off. God knows before you are born if you will repent and trust Jesus sometime within your lifetime, he was looking.

Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

You probably won't get it, but scripture tells us "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him". That is foreknowledge.

But note how Nathanael was surprised and asked how Jesus "knew" him. And what did Jesus say? Before you were even called, "I saw you" This is foreknowledge if you will receive it

I could show you more, but if you can't see it here, you won't see it there either.

100% consistent with Acts 2 and has nothing to do with knowing someone. That is foreknowing not foreknowledge. The act of foreknowing is always seen in relation to people.

Acts 2:23 has nothing to do with knowing someone in an intimate manner, it is saying God foreknew the events that would take place.

I agree! God doesn't tempt anyone nor does he force anyone to sin. God, somehow, had decreed all things, yet is not a sinner nor the author of sin.

The 1689 summarizes it well:

Your view is a mass of contradiction, both internally and with regard to the word of God.

My view is not a contradiction at all and you know it. You are the one who is contradicting himself, you say God determined the Jews kill Jesus, but he didn't force them to sin. Nonsense. Acts 2:23 doesn't say the Jews killing Jesus was detemined, it says Jesus being "delivered" was determined. That comma is very important.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Very calvie and very assured in my salvation. It helps to see my growth, remember what I was like, and where I am now. I understand the logic of Winman's point about assurance. But practically speaking, it has never been a problem for me.

Oh the subject Tim......I still do not understand this Christian Heathiesm stuff you have listed on on your signature. Piper, I guess is the guy pushing it......but I need to know more when you get the chance.

That is all, over and out.

 

[Winman]

Very calvie and very assured in my salvation. It helps to see my growth, remember what I was like, and where I am now. I understand the logic of Winman's point about assurance. But practically speaking, it has never been a problem for me.

Thank you Tim, of all the Calvinists at BB, I think I most enjoy debating with you, because you are honest. I appreciate that, and I will always try to be straight with you.

It's not simply my logic about Calvinists lacking assurance, it is a real and common experience with many Calvinists. John Piper wrote that even he had great difficulty with assurance.

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-agonizing-problem-of-the-assurance-of-salvation

The most agonizing problem about the assurance of salvation is not the problem of whether the objective facts of Christianity are true (God exists, Christ is God, Christ died for sinners, Christ rose from the dead, Christ saves forever all who believe, etc.). Those facts are the utterly crucial bedrock of our faith. But the really agonizing problem of assurance is whether I personally am saved by those facts.

This boils down to whether I have saving faith. What makes this agonizing - for many in the history of the church and today - is that there are people who think they have saving faith but don't. For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

So the agonizing question for some is: do I really have saving faith? Is my faith real? Am I self-deceived? Some well-intentioned people try to lessen the problem by making faith a mere decision to affirm certain truths, like the truth: Jesus is God, and he died for my sins. Some also try to assist assurance by denying that any kind of life-change is really necessary to demonstrate the reality of faith. So they find a way to make James 2:17 mean something other than what is seems to mean: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead." But these strategies to help assurance backfire. They deny some Scripture; and even the minimal faith they preserve can be agonized over and doubted by the tormented soul. They don't solve the problem, and they lose truth. And, perhaps worst of all, they sometimes give assurance to people who should not have it.

John Calvin taught that God gives some folks Evanescent Grace. This is a false faith that seems so real that the person himself is deceived. He believes he is saved, but in time will fall away.

So, the only thing that can assure someone who believes like this is to persevere in good works. And falling in sin can produce serious doubts.

This is the downside of Lordship Salvation and it's emphasis on performance.

People in scripture did not doubt when they believed. They KNEW they had believed and so did not lack assurance.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[The Biblicist]

It's not simply my logic about Calvinists lacking assurance, it is a real and common experience with many Calvinists. John Piper wrote that even he had great difficulty with assurance.

Do not the writers of the New Testament at least imply that true children of God sometimes lack assurance? Does not 1 John 5:13 implies this or why else write to them to assure them? Does not 2 Cor. 13:5 and 1 Pet. 1:10 all infer this? What is the basis for these admonitions to examine ourselves to see if not doubt due to sin in the life of believers? Does not sin in the life of a true believer rob them of certain experiential blessings, of which assurance is one such blessing? I don't see doubt as unhealty for a true child of God but rather a tool in the hands of the Holy Spirit to examine their lives more carefully in the light of scriptures in order to move them forward and strengthen their faith.

 

[Winman]

Do not the writers of the New Testament at least imply that true children of God sometimes lack assurance? Does not 1 John 5:13 implies this or why else write to them to assure them? Does not 2 Cor. 13:5 and 1 Pet. 1:10 all infer this? What is the basis for these admonitions to examine ourselves to see if not doubt due to sin in the life of believers? Does not sin in the life of a true believer rob them of certain experiential blessings, of which assurance is one such blessing? I don't see doubt as unhealty for a true child of God but rather a tool in the hands of the Holy Spirit to examine their lives more carefully in the light of scriptures in order to move them forward and strengthen their faith.

All Christians doubt from time to time, and that might be a good thing. But for some folks it is crippling, and I think that is what these two Calvinist writers are talking about. You do not see believers in torment in the scriptures like the one man who was almost suicidal because he did not know if he was elect in one of those articles.

The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.

And just to let you know, the writer of this article identified himself as a Calvinist.

 

[The Biblicist]

All Christians doubt from time to time, and that might be a good thing. But for some folks it is crippling, and I think that is what these two Calvinist writers are talking about. You do not see believers in torment in the scriptures like the one man who was almost suicidal because he did not know if he was elect in one of those articles.



And just to let you know, the writer of this article identified himself as a Calvinist.

I think you are taking a rare case and attempting to make it a rule just to support you personal vendetta against what you perceive as Calvinism. I personally know of no Calvinist in my 40 years of ministry that fits what you seem to be making a standard characteristic of calvinism and calvinists. I really don't think anyone on this forum would see your argument as a fair argument.

Secondly, are you claiming that truely saved persons are incapable of thinking, or committing suicide?

Thirdly, I believe that one consequence of sin is depression which is actually disobedience to confess and actually believe God has forgiven you of your sins. Have you ever been depressed? Can some people fall into lower stages of depression than others?

 

[convicted1]

Men can give sinners a false hope too, Brother Wes. They'll say "all you have to do is repeat this prayer after me, and presto chango, ollie ollie oxen free, hoopla, swish, and BAM, you're saved!!!!" Now, call us and tell us you're saved and we'll send your our literature, and it will tell you how to stay saved.

People like this make my skin crawl....gives me the heebie beegies....