Some thoughts on the Biblical Shabbat - Sabbath

1. In Romans 7 we see that the 10 commandments "define sin".

2. In Romans 3 and Galations 3 we see that God's Law places "All mankind" under sin. Not just OT mankind.

3. IN Galations 3 the point is made that by condemning all mankind - they point to our need of a Savior. Indeed - All have sinned and so All need salvation.

4. IN James 2 the 10 commandments are pointed to as the "Law of Liberty" by which "we All" are judged.

5. In Matt 19 Christ shows the pre-cross practice of quoting from the unit of 10.

6. If we "could assume" that when we don't see them all quoted - then whatever one is not quoted is void, the 10 commanmdents ended long BEFORE the cross. They are not quoted in full in the pre-cross Gospel events of the 4 gospels. They are not quoted in Malachi, they are not quoted in Daniel, they are not quoted in most OT books. So using "such a rule" would have ended the 10 commandment spoken Law of the Sovereign God of the Universe - long before the the cross.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 02, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

The unique language of every commandment is employed in the NT except for one. The 3rd commandment language "Against taking God's name in vain" is not used in any part in the NT.

The 4th commandment language is employed repeatedly in the NT. The Sabbath is referred to both in the gospels Pre-Cross and in the writings of the apostles AND its distinctive language is also used in Rev 14.

But IF we "Could" assume that by not repeating it in full in the gospels before the cross - that Sabbath breaking was approved by God before the cross - we would have a basis for abolishing God's law - making it void - "instead" of "establishing it" Rom 3:31.

For the destruction of His spoken word BEFORE the cross does not fit any model used today - and "yet" the Sabbath" commandment - is not quoted in full, nor the 3rd commandment against taking God's name in vain quoted At All - in Malachi, in the gospels or in all of the NT. It is not a Biblically proven rule - that as soon as a commandment is no longer quoted in full - then it is void.

A better - more sustainable rule needs to be found to abolish the 7th-day memorial of creation that Christ said was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 and that we find "all mankind" coming before God to celebrate in Isaiah 66:23.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The same term in used in Gen 2:3 for making the day a holy day as is used in Exodus 20:11. God made it holy according to the commandment "past tense" by is Gen 2:3 actions.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
In your posts above you have failed to demonstrate one thing. In the New Testament nine out of ten commandments are repeated as commandments. The fourth commandment concerning the Sabbath is not repeated in the New Testament any where as a command. We are not commanded to keep the Sabbath. Can you demonstrate from the New Testament where the believer is specifically required to keep the Sabbath Day. The only people required to keep the Sabbath Day were the Israelites, to whom it was given as a covenantal sign throughout their generations. (Exodus 31) Scripture speaks for itself.
DHK

 

I see - so in summary - to summarize the Genesis 1 - 2:1 events we should say --
"for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and rested the 7th day therefore the Lord set the seventh day apart as a day of rest, but not as a binding obligation for mankind. God was just obligating Himself to rest"??

IN every case in scripture of God sanctifying and making something Holy - an obligation is placed on man - not God.

The Language of the 4th commandment is that of a summary statement of the Genesis 1-2:3 account of creation - and it is spoken directly by God to mankind. Indeed the Sabbath was Made For mankind.

In that summary God Himself states the event that Makes the seventh-day a day of obligation - and the event that He references is the Gen 1-2:3 event. That is the event that makes it "holy" and that establishes the day as "a day of rest" as you point out.

In both Exodus 20 and Gen 2:2-3 God uses the same word "Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day " past tense - refering to the Gen 2:2-3 event... "and Made it Holy" again a past tense reference to the Gen 2:2-3 act of God. That alone comprises the "act of God" that "
makes the day Holy". The term "made it Holy" qadash references the same word used in Gen 2:2-3 and translated as "sanctified".

So in fact it is a "memorial of the creation of mankind" and was "made for mankind" according to Christ.

As you point out in your reply it was made a day of rest for mankind - as a memorial of God's creative act - long before Abraham. And you are correct.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 02, 2002, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

As you point out in your reply it was made a day of rest for mankind - as a memorial of God's creative act - long before Abraham. And you are correct.
</font>[/QUOTE]You misunderstood me. The principle that God established from the beginning is that one day out of seven should be set apart for rest. He at that time set apart the Sabbath. The Sabbath later on in the time of Moses was reserved specifically for the Jews. There is no directive for Christians to keep the Sabbath. In principle they should have one day of rest. Paul point this out very clearly:

Rom.14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

In reality it does not matter what day you worship on. The early church worshipped on every day of the week. Ellen G. White said that all who did not worship on the Sabbath, and worshipped on Sunday had the mark of the Beast! What a farce!
In an Islamic nation, many of the Christians worship on Friday, the Muslim holy day. Why? Not because they adapt to Muslim customs, but because it is more convenient for them to do so. If they work 6 out of 7 days (including Sunday), and Friday is their only day of rest, then that is the best day for them to gather and worship. And so they do. Early Christians worshipped on Sunday in honor of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have yet to demonstrate from the New Testament any command for the believer to keep the Sabbath.
DHK

 

As has been shown already - the 3rd commandment is not quoted at all in the NT. Where God's people to start breaking that commandment at the start of the NT - (The NT starts, by the way, just before the birth of Christ)

The Sabbath commandment's unique language is used repeatedly in the NT AND we also have the Hebrews 4 statement that the Sabbath rest -"Still remains for the people of God".

But we do not find "The 3rd commandment still remains for the people of God".

==================================

The Third commandment is not quoted at all in the NT Nor are the 10 commandments quoted in the book of Malachi - Nor are they quoted as a group in more than a few OT books. So what were God's people to do even in the NT before the cross - without those quotes?

You are seeking out a "rule" where none exists.

But the worst part is the detail that the NT text does not begin with accounts "After" the cross - rather the NT text that "does not repeat the Sabbath verbatim" begins with events regarding the Jews Before the Birth of Christ.

By every measure the Sabbath WAS in force for Jews before the birth of Christ - and yet - as you say "no verbatim repeat of the Sabbath commandment". Which means that particular "rule" does not hold up before the Messiah, or after his ministry or after the cross.

The rule "needed" to find the Sabbath "commandment" issued/quote/re-stated in the NT BEFORE the cross by John the Baptist or by Christ or by His Jewish disciples - so that it could point out a "sudden silence" regarding the Sabbath commandment after the cross. An abrupt end of a constant Sabbath commandment drum beat to signal it's end - in lieu of an actual explicit statement saying that the 10 commandments or the seventh-day memorial of creation was abolished.

The "ideal" would have been for the book of Malachi to have ended with one last imperative to keep Sabbath followed by the the account of Christ's death on the cross in the last chapter of Malachi.

Then we could point to all of NT writing and to a lack of repetition of the Sabbath commandment as "having some meaning".

But since 90% of the NT Gospel writings are PRE-cross -- and they ALSO do not include a full verbatim repetition of the Sabbath commmandment - you have a problem tyring to show a "change" in the 4th commandment references at the cross.

While it is true that we are not in a position to "make up rules" when trying to reduce the 10 commandments by "one" or "two" -- still if we are going to make the attempt - we should at least be consistent.

IF the NT does not command pre-cross Jews to keep the Sabbath - in the Gospel accounts of commands that were valid for Jews BEFORE the cross - then will you now argue that Jews were supposed to break the Sabbath starting with the birth of Christ?

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The term for "mankind" is never used to mean "just the Hebrews" in scripture. And we see it used in both the OT (ISaiah 66) and the NT (Mark 2:27) by Christ in reference to the Sabbath.

This is a unique singling out of the 4th commandment specifically and explicitly identifying IT as having been "made for mankind" and also stating that IN the New Earth (Rev 21) it is the day on which "All Mankind" come before God to worship (Isaiah 66).

[ December 02, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

There is no "pick One Day out of Seven" language in all of scripture.

From Gen 2:2-3 to the end - it is always "The Seventh-Day" - which is God's own sovereign choice of the holy day "made for mankind" as a memorial of His creative act in making mankind. It is on that day that "All mankind" will come before God to worship in the New Earth of Rev 21 according to the text of Isaiah 66.

God Himself provides explicit detail that to keep the day Holy - you have to come before Him to worship and also abstain from secular pursuits.

God never states in OT or NT that non-Jews are to stop honoring His Holy Seventh-day memorial of the creation of mankind. In fact - He blesses non-Jews that choose to obey in Isaiah 58.

===============================

Romans 14 is speaking of annual feast days. It argues that one man Observes one day Above another while another man Observes Every day.

The exact manner in which the day was to be observed as holy to the Lord - is outlined explicitly by God Himself - it is not left to man to imagine what obedience 'might be'.

The issue in Romans 14 is between those who Observe Every day and those who Observe one day Above another.

There were no commands left over from Judaism that required observing 360 days a year as Holy days set aside for rest and worship. The issue in Romans 14 deals with the observance of annual feast days left over from Judaism. Some chose to observe ALL of them and some chose to Observe one above the others.

Now there we have a true statement. IF you worship on Tuesday or Wednesday or every other year once on Jan 14 - it does not matter. It has no bearing at all on the Sabbath commandment of God regarding His memorial of creation - creating mankind. It is not whether or not you happen to show up at church for an hour on some week day that is the issue. It is what you choose to do with God's own Holy day memorial of creation that is explicitly the focus of God in His own Sabbath commandment.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 02, 2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

That is true. But as John states in John 1 no one has seen the Father at any time. That means that Christ as the 2nd person of the trinity is the YHWH of the OT whenever He is "seen" - it is not the Father. That means that it is Christ at Sinai that is speaking. Moses and Abraham and Jacob and all that claimed to "see" YHWH - where seeing the second person of the Trinity - not the Father.

Christ spoke His own commandments at Sinai.

He adds New Commandments - over time - but He Himself does not void His own commands "Think Not that I have come to abolish the Law". Of course not - it was His Own Word that He came to "Fulfill".

As He emphasized in Matt 22 - the commandment that He already gave to love one another Lev 19:18 and to Love God with all of our heart Deut 6:5 - He gave as YHWH - the Almighty God of the OT.

Indeed - Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 as given by God the Son - are the foundation of His Law. You can not void His commandments without first trying to break these two foundations.

And the beauty of it is - Christ perfectly fulfilled the prescriptive requirements of the Law of Love - the Royal Law as James calls it.

He also perfectly fulfilled the predictive requirements of the laws regarding sacrifices and annual feast pointing forward (predictive) to specific actions regarding the Messiah.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 03, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

It would have been nice if Hebrews 4 had said "Jesus is our Sabbath" - it does not - nor does any other text of scripture.

IT would have been nice if Matt 11 had been a POST cross statement where Christ says "Come unto Me.. I will give you rest" as the announcement that Sabbath rest was abolished and replaced by rest in Christ after the Cross.

But Christ declares that He is Already the source of Rest - BEFORE the cross with the Sabbath memorial of His act of Creating mankind in full force.

There was never opposition between the Creator and His own memorial of His creative act. Both are in His hand - both are in harmony - law and grace - justice and mercy in perfect harmony in Christ.

The Seventh-day memorial of creation of mankind - given to us as God's Holy day before sin - (along with the institution of marriage) - is Still a blessing made FOR mankind and will continue to bless mankind as "All mankind comes before Me to Worship" - "From Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth of Rev 21:1-3 according to Isaiah 66.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 03, 2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

It would have been nice if Hebrews 4 had said "Jesus is our Sabbath" - it does not - nor does any other text of scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

It is fairly clear from the teaching of this passage that Jesus is our rest. To all that believe on Him, He is our rest. We enter into His rest. He is our rest, i.e. our Sabbath.
DHK

 

Originally posted by DHK:

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

My comment:

There are 3 different Greek words used in the Hebrews 4 passage. A key one is in this 9th verse.

Strong's Greek Definition for # 4520

4520//sabbatismov//sabbatismos//sab-bat-is-mos' //

from a derivative of 4521 ; TDNT - 7:34,989; n m

AV - rest 1; 1

1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

Notice note#2. This doesn't say "Jews" that you referenced in your post, DHK. Strong's 4521 is "sabbaton" which I know that you know means seventh day sabbath.

 

BobRyan - I appreciate your knowledge of the Word and demonstrated ability with the English language. Only extremely stubborn brothers have offered opposition to your understanding of scripture. For you tennis fans out there - advantage BobRyan.

 

This rest was figured in the Sabbath and anyone who learns to live out of rest is keeping the Sabbath as God meant it to be kept.

It was also prefigured in the land of Canaan, yet in Verse 8, it says,

...if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. {Heb 4:8 RSV}

If the figure had been enough God would not, later on in the Scriptures, have recorded the words,

...there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. {Heb 4:9 RSV}

Obviously, Canaan, too, was nothing but a figure, nothing but a picture, a shadow. Then what is the real rest?

We come to it in Verse 10; it is most clearly stated:

...for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his. {Heb 4:10 RSV}

Here is a revolutionary new principle of human behavior, on which God intends man to operate, and it was his intention from the beginning. It is from this that man fell, and it is to this, now, in Jesus Christ, he is to be restored. Unless this principle is operative in our life, we can have no assurance that we belong to the body of Christ. This is the clear declaration of this writer throughout the whole of the book.

We all have been brainwashed since birth with a false concept of the basis of human activity. We have been sold on the satanic lie that we have in ourselves what it takes to be what we want to be, to be a man, a woman, to achieve whatever we desire to be. We are sure we have what it takes, or, if we do not have it now, we know where we can get it. We can educate ourselves, we can acquire more information, we can develop new skills, and when we get this done we shall have what it takes to be what we want to be.

For three and a half years, the Apostle Peter tried his level best to please the Lord Jesus by dedicated, earnest, sincere efforts to serve him out of his own will, and he failed dismally because he could not be convinced that he did not have what it takes. When the Lord Jesus told him, "You will never have what it takes until the cross comes into your life," he would not receive it. He said, "Lord, don't talk to me about a cross. I don't want to hear anything about that." And the Lord Jesus said, "Get behind me Satan, you are an offense unto me. You do not understand the things of God, but only the things of men," {cf, Mat 16:21-23}. And it was not until that wonderful day, the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit opened his eyes to the full meaning of the cross, and all the Lord Jesus had made available to him by his indwelling life became part of Peter's experience, that he realized what the Lord had meant. Not till then did he realize what it took to be a Christian.

We repeat: It takes Christ to be a Christian, and it takes God to be a man. When you put Christ back in the Christian, you put God back in the man. This is God's design for living, this is the new principle of human activity -- to stop our own efforts.

We do not have what it takes, and we never did have. The only one who can live the Christian life is Jesus Christ. He proposes to reproduce his life in us. Our part is to expose every situation to his life in us, and, by that means, depending upon him and not upon us, we are to meet every situation, enter into every circumstance, and perform every activity. We cease from our own labors.

This is the way you began the Christian life, if you are a Christian.

* You came to the place where you stopped trying to save yourself, did you not?
* You quit trying to be good enough to get into heaven.
* You said, "I'll never make it, I'll never make it."
* You looked to the Lord Jesus, and said, "If he has taken my place, then that is all I need."
* Thus, receiving him, and resting on that fact by faith, you stopped your own efforts, you ceased from your own work, and rested on his.

Now, Paul says in Colossians, "As therefore you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him," {Col 2:6 RSV}. As ... so -- in the same way. As you have received him, so live in dependence upon him to do all things through you. Step out upon that, and what is the result? Rest! Wonderful rest! Relief, release, no longer worrying, fretting, straining, for you are resting upon One who is wholly adequate to do through you everything that needs to be done. He does not make automatons of us, he does not turn us into robots. He works through our thinking, our feeling and our reasoning, but our dependence must be upon him. (Ray Steadman)

 

Obvious points made in Hebrews 4.

#1. The Gospel is preached To US JUST as to the OT Hebrews. One gospel in all ages - not two.

#2. IT is NOT the OT that is the problem - but UNBELIEF. And it is not ALL in the OT that failed to enter but "SOME" in the OT.

#3. Hebrews 11 provides an entire chapter of OT saints - showing BELIEF - rather than a lack thereof. We can not argue that no on ei the OT "believed" and it is "only" unbelief that prevented these from enter the rest as stated in the text above.

This quote "TODAY" is taken from Psalms 95:7 just as Heb 3:7 points out. This is the Holy Spirit speaking (according to Heb 3:6-7) IN THE OT saying "TODAY if you will hear His voice". It was already "true" in the OT - in with the 7th day Sabbath in full force by ALL accounts.

The Psalms 95:7 statement Could Not have abolished the Seventh-day Sabbath memorial of creation in the days of David. It did not have that as its purpose then - nor now.

Still in all this - there was found "no statement" saying that "Jesus is our Sabbath".

No hint that the Psalms 95:7 statement of the Holy Spirit was making void the Sabbath memorial of creation in the days of King David.

No hint that "TODAY" is not the day of Ps 95:7 - but is instead limited to days "After the cross".

The fact that the Sabbath remains for the people of God - according to Hebrews 4 is devastating for the case of those who insist "The Sabbath does Not remain for the people of God".

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 03, 2002, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Jim,

Thank you for those kind words.

There is a lot of "tradition" blocking the clear Bible teaching on the subject of the memorial of creation established by God in scripture.

God's blessings to you.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am not a Jew - but I am a child of God. We both have the OT - but God gave the OT scripture to the Jews. It would be naive to think that only they can read and obey God's written word.

Romans 3 states that their advantage is "great in every respect...for theirs is the oracles(word) of God".

The fact that God made/added covenants with the Hebrews that were not made in that way with us gentiles - does not prohibit us from having that scripture, enjoying the Sabbath that Christ said was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 etc.

Actually it is speaking of the "NEW Earth" and John tells us in Rev 21 that this takes place "After" the millenium (Rev 20).

Rev 20:7 says "And when the thousand years were Completed"...

Then Rev 21 starts with "I saw a New Heavens and a New Earth".

Impossible to miss.

The Isaiah 66 account of the New Earth where "ALL mankind shall come before Me to Worship" from Sabbath to Sabbath - makes the future case AND the applicability of Sabbath to "all mankind" crystal clear.

Not only Does Christ places it's ORIGIN - its "making" for "All mankind" but then Isaiah 66 places the future "New Earth" - All eternity as having the Sabbath applicable to "All Mankind".

Again - impossible to miss.

However - even more devastating - even in your own view you concede a future time when the Sabbath applies to "all mankind" just as Isaiah 66 states

Basically - even in rejecting the memorial of creation - your view is forced to concede that it is brought back again and that the "All mankind" application that we find in Isaiah 66 is applicable to our future.

So going back with your view of the 10 commandments edited down to 9 - and then apparently edited Back to 10 again... even you have got to wonder if you have that right.

Paul argues in Ephesians 6 that the unit remains. For the 5th commandment is listed as the "first" in that unit "With a promise". And James 2 argues - that if we break one - we break them all - again the unit is argued.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 04, 2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

My argument above is not that SINCE God made the Sabbath for mankind - He can not use "obedience" to the 10 commandments as a covenant with Israel - or make the 4th commandment a sign of obedience with Israel.

Making "the Sabbath for mankind" does not prevent God from pointing to it as a sign of obedience between the Hebrews and God - NOR does it prevent God from commanding the Jews not to murder - or even though All mankind has the same imperative from God.

The idea is continually repeated that even though MANKIND is not to worship false gods - once God commands the HEbrews not to do that - and makes that command part of His 10 commandment covenant - well than - it can not possibly apply to "all mankind" any more. IN the same way the attempt is made to "rework" the scope of Sabbath so that Christ is in error when He states "The Sabbath was Made for Mankind" Mark 2:27 IF it is Also used as a Sign for God's people of the Hebrew nation church.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 04, 2002, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

BTW - what happened to Carson?

Did he drop off this thread? I had a few questions pending for him.

Bob