Some thoughts on the Biblical Shabbat - Sabbath

Good consistent point. The issue is not the Sabbath commandment - but the Entire TEN commandments themselves.

IF the Unit of the 10 commandments is dead - it is a mute point of whether you are obligated by the 2nd or 3rd or 4th etc.

They ended. Period.

On the other hand. The Pope's position in Dies Domini is that the unit of Ten is eternal as God Himself - and not limited to the Jews. (So the above position of JohnV would be a problem for Catholics).

And of course the rest of us must deal with the fact that in Matt 28 Christ said to teach Christians what HE taught the Disciples and so the post-cross NT authors published the Gospel records of what Christ taught. Unfortunately it is PRE-cross teaching that they published - maybe they just didn't get it.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 30, 2002, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Carson - I noticed that you dropped that one like a hot potatoe? Do you have an answer?

Carson, I noticed that you also avoided this one - no answer?

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Is the Bible clear that the Ten Commandments are still valid? You haven't convinced me any.

Rom.3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom.4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom.7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom.8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal.2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal.2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Is this enough? Do you want more. Paul in this last verse, referring to the Ten Commandments says that through the law he is dead. We are no longer required to keep the law. Christ fulfilled the law at the cross.
DHK

 

The 10 commandments are a distinct unit of Law set apart in the OT.

#1. They are the only Law spoken verbally by God to mankind - to all those gathered at Sinai.

#2. They are the only law written on tablets of stone.

#3. They are called "The 10 Commandments" repeatedly in the OT.

#5. IN Moses' summary in Deut 5 - he says that God spoke these 10 commandments "and He added no more".

But of course - that is the "unit" of the 10 commandments in the OT. What abaout the NT?

Were they quoted by Christ - PRE-Cross Matt 19:17-18 (yes).

Do we make Void the law of God through faith? Rom 3:31 "no- God forbid. In fact we Establish the Law".

Does Paul argue the continued integrity of the commandments as a "unit of law"? Eph 6:1-2. Yes! He states that the 5th commandment is the FIRST commandment in that unit wiht a promise and then argues that christians must observe it because of it's place in the Unit of Ten "For it is the FIRST commandment with a Promise".

And are the 10 commandments ALSO quoted - AFTER Matt 19 - AFTER the cross?

hmmm... I wonder where that would be...

But the point remains - the real issue is not the Sabbath - it is the 10 commandments themselves. If you can find a way to abolish God's own Law - Obviously the Sabbath goes with it.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 01, 2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Mt 19:17 So he said to Him, "why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is God, but if you want to enter into life KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"

1Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and un-circumcision is nothing, but keeping the Commandments of God is what matters.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the Commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His Commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter through the gates into the city.

My interpretation of these scriptures is that the Commandments are still relevant for the modern church, and they go in a parallel with having the Faith of Jesus.

 

The Sabbath was a sign between the nation of Israel and the Lord throughout their generations forever. The Jews were to keep the Sabbath. No Christian is ever commanded to keep the Sabbath, any where.

I would say that was correct only if the six day creation applied to the Jews. It does not. Since Christianity is rooted in Judaism, it's no stretch to understand that the Ten Commandments are inhierited by the Judeo-Christian community.

If the God of the OT is strictly the God of Israel, then we open ourselves up to the possibility that the Jewish God is not the same as the Christian God. We also run the risk of implying that the NT has greater weight than the OT. If that's true, then we should place the OT with the Apocrypha as separate from the NT. But clearly, we don't believe that. We believe that the OT and the NT are both equally relevant today as they were when they were written.

 

We are not talking of keeping copious covenantal laws here, John. We are speaking of rightly dividing the Word of truth.

While that applies to the OT laws, I emphasize that the Ten Commanements are not the laws of God, they are the commandments of God, the only instance in the OT of God literally writing something, not just revealing something and having someone pass it on. The Ten Commandments are not Ten individual laws. They are one long commandment, indivisible from each other.

Otherwise, anywhere we have the Ten Commandments displayed, we should just display nine, or at least have a little asterisk that reads "no longer applies".

I can find no place in the NT where we are told the Sabbath day no longer applies, though there are copious passages that put the practice of Sabbath Day into perspective.

 

Numbers 15:32-36
32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Why was this man stoned? It was for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. What were the sticks for? Most believe it was for fuel for cooking and for heat. If that be true, one could deduce that in order to keep the Sabbath (a day of complete rest), you must not use anything that uses fuel. You must not turn on any appliance such as a stove, oven, toaster, kettle, etc. That would be akin to gathering sticks. No cooking. Everything you eat on the Sabbath (which is Saturday) must be prepared the day before). You must not cook anything on the Sabbath. You must not do any work of any kind. You must not travel over five-eighths of a mile--a Sabbath's-day journey. Go and read every law that pertains to the Sabbath day and see if you can keep it. I don't believe anyone can seriously keep the Sabbath in this day and age. Christ is our Sabbath. We have entered (if we are saved) into His rest.

Col.2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
--Note here "the sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come."
The Sabbath is but a shadow. When you look at your shadow what do you see? You see an image of yourself. A shadow is but an image of the real thing. The real thing is Jesus. If you are keeping the Sabbath and living by works your trust is in the wrong place; it is not in Christ. The Lord says to put your trust in Him, not His shadow. Enter into his rest. He is our Sabbath.

Gal.2:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
--The purpose of the law (in this case the Ten Commandments) was to be to us a teacher, a tutor, to bring us to Christ. How? No man can keep the law. You cannot keep the Ten Commandments. Jesus demonstrated that on the Sermon on the Mount. We sin. We break the law. For that reason we need a Saviour. The law shows us our sin, thus teaching us our need for a Saviour.
"We are no longer under a schoolmaster."
We are no longer under the law.
We are no longer under the obligations of the Sabbath Day or any of the Jewish Laws. The Sabbath was specifically Jewish, whether included in the Ten Commandments or not. The other nine are repeated as commands in the New Testament. Keeping the Sabbath is not.
DHK

 

This post (I thought) was started to encourage thoughts about the sabbath, but one of you rightly observed that the emphasis had switched to the ten commandments and the law. Please notice that I said "and." Then I observed that most of you are not making a distinction between "the law" (ordinances) which applied only to the Jews and "the ten commandments" which were given by God to the world.

Setting aside all talk about law and commandments (just for a sec), God set aside and made holy the seventh day for the purpose of rest. He certainly did not do that for the Jews as there weren't any around when he did it.

Now back to the commandments:

Shortly before Jesus went to the cross He said this - John 14:15  ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Reading the entire chapter 14 after this will bless you. Kind of late of Him to be instructing people to keep His commandments if they were going to be done away with at His death, don't you think? Talking about commandments now - not law.

1 John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. John said - keep 'em and they are not grievous. He didn't say "were" not grievous.

2 John 1:6  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

That as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.....

Commandments of God - still applicable and will be until His second coming.

Commandments and ordinances of men - nailed to the cross!

The sabbath of rest - still as holy today as it was when God created it and blessed it and sanctified it.

I have already addressed most of the major arguments for which day (7th or 6th) in a previous post, which nobody addressed, so I won't repeat them here.

A friend - Jim

 

Your reasoning is fallacious. Was the murder of Abel by Cain against the Law (the Ten Commandments)? Was it wrong for Judah (Gen.38) to commit adultery? Was it wrong for Rebekkah to steal Laban's gods (idols)?
No doubt all the "law" had already been broken before it had been written. God took the Sabbath Day, and to the Jewish nation declared it to be a day of rest. It was a covenantal sign between them and no one else. That is very plain from Ex.31.
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Does it matter?

Your point?? That they did not gather on a Sabbath perhaps.

Are sure about that?
If you keep one law, you must keep them all. Don't be a hypocrite and discriminate. Do you wear all linen, or all wool? No mixed clothing allowed you know!

You need to go on to verse 17:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Those Sabbath days are a shadow and that is all. Whether it refers to the one in Genesis is irrelevant. It is a shadow of that Sabbath which was to come, and now is. Christ is our Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:3-5
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

The word "ordinances" refers to the rites and ordinances of the Jewish law, of which the keeping of the Sabbath was one of them.

Your question is answered in the next verse:
23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
--The commandments were obviously of men which resulted in a show of fleshly wisdom and worshp of the mind, etc. This was not of God.

No, the Lord's Day, is commonly referred to as the first day of the week, as it is in Acts 20:7.

God still is the same, and always will be. He never changes. He is immutable. But He works differently at different times.
He spoke to Moses through a burning bush. He spoke to the prophets in various ways in the Old Testament, which He does not do today (Heb.1:1). Today He speaks to us through His Word. Yet He still is the same God. He has different ways of dealing with mankind in different ages of history, but He still is the same God.
DHK

[ December 01, 2002, 04:34 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Why is their a focus on keeping the Commandments and having the faith of Jesus in Revalation? Surely if one of them had been done away with the bible would specifically say so?

 

The Bible does specifically say so. Look at the Scriptures already posted.
First, Read the posted verses in Exodus 31. It is a sign given only to the Jews. It was never meant for Christians to keep in the first place, so your question is irrelevant. It is not that it is done away, it was never kept in the first place, except by Jews.
Second, Read the verses in Col.2. It is a shadow of the real Sabbath to come. A shadow is only an image. It is not real. We have the real thing--Jesus. We don't need the Sabbath.
Third. Read the verses in Heb.4. We are to enter into His rest, the rest of Jesus, for He is our Rest, our Sabbath, there is no other Sabbath in this age but Him.
DHK

 

DHK - Why do you neglect to answer my questions to you? You get carried away just expressing your opinions when 5 or 6 questions are posed, so why don't we take them one at a time? Are you game?

The first one I asked you was "Who were the Jews on earth at the time God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it?" (Gen 2:2)

Since you think my interpretations are in error, I am so willing to be convinced of that fact. Let's take things one at a time so we don't have to type an epistle for each post. We don't have to agree - we can agree to disagree after each point if you'd like.

You have agreed with me so far on only one point; that being - God is same yesterday, today and forever. Everyone currently involved in this post would be welcomed to respond to each point.

[ December 01, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: JIMNSC ]

 

The father of the Jewish nation was Abraham. There were no Jews before Abraham. God rested the seventh day. In verse three it says he sanctified or set it apart from all the others as a day of rest, not in a legal and covenant sense as He did with the Jews at Sinai, but in principle only: that man should work six days only and give one day to the Lord for rest. That is all that is implied.
DHK

 

DHK,

Please explain to me the meaning of Revelation 14:12, Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

DHK said:

"In verse three it says he sanctified or set it apart from all the others as a day of rest, not in a legal and covenant sense as He did with the Jews at Sinai, but in principle only: that man should work six days only and give one day to the Lord for rest. That is all that is implied."
DHK

I said:
Blessed and sanctified would mean set apart and made "holy." Forget the Jews at Sinai for a sec. I believe that anything God blesses and sets apart would have some permanence to it and not be a temporary thing. I'll give you "implied" though because He has yet to issue His commandments.

That's the beginning - let's skip all the way to the end and work our way back to the middle.

Isaiah 65:17  ¶For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22  For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23  And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Look at the timing in verses 17 & 22 (new heavens and the new earth). Look at "who" (all flesh)will come to worship before Him. Notice when (from one new moon to the other and from one sabbath to another). I already know you subscribe to "the sabbath was made for man," (not Jew, but man). Comments?

DHK - If nobody else wants to make a statement here go ahead.

 

The entire set of 10 commandments are called the law of the covenant - exclusively with the Hebrews. IF we took your logic seriously - then commands against adultery and murder would also be void for anyone but Jews SINCE the 10 commandments as a group are assigned as "The Covenant" and "The words of the covenant" in the OT.

The quote from Isaiah 66 does show "ALL mankind coming before Me to worship" from Sabbath to Sabbath.

Isaiah 58 shows foreigners keeping Sabbath.

Mark 2:27 shows "Sabbath made for mankind".

And the language of Gen 2:3 shows it to be "made holy" at creation. Just as the 4th commandment language confirms.

Hard to miss.

But what about the Ten commandments - ?

In Christ,

Bob

 

1John2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There is nothing in any of these verses that talk of keeping the Sabbath Day. What are the commandments of God? What are His commandments? The number one thing to remember here is that Christ is God. Any straying from that truth is heresy. He is deity. His claim to Divinity ought to be unattested.
Here is what Christ said. Here are His commands:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Mat.22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All of these commands are based on love. None are based on works or a legalistic system of keeping the law, including keeping the Sabbath.
1. Love one another.
2. Love the Lord your God.
3. Love your neighbor as yourself.
These are the commandments of God, briefly stated.
Any one who has trusted Christ as their Saviour, having the Holy Spirit dwelling withing them, would follow the commands of Christ out of love, not constraint.
DHK

 

I believe in dispensations; the method or scheme according to which God carries out his purposes towards men is called a dispensation.
When Adam and Eve were created they lived in a dispensation or an age of innocence, when there was no sin, until the fall. From the time of Moses receiving the Law on Mount Sinai until the Resurrection of Christ, the Jews lived under the Law. From the Day of Pentecost onward we live in this age of Grace. Christ will come again. There will come a time when He will set up His millenial Kingdom, a thousand year reign on earth. When He returns the Jews, as a nation will turn to Christ and be saved (Rom.11:26). Christ Himself will rule the world with a rod of iron, after having put down all of his enemies (Rev.19:14,15). During that period of time all the nations will come to worship Christ; all peoples will come to Jerusalem: both Jews and Gentiles. This is what Isaiah 65 is describing.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
There will be perfect peace in the world for the Prince of Peace Himself will be ruling it. During this period of time the Sabbath Day also will be reinstituted.
God has set aside his people for a time. He is now calling out a people for Himself, a bride.
But he hasn't entirely forgotten about the Jews. He still remembers his promises to Abraham and to the nation of Israel. They will look to Him and be saved. And when they do, the Sabbath will once again be reinstituted.
DHK