Some thoughts on the Biblical Shabbat - Sabbath

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Christ Himself delcares to the saints "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:14.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DHK
What commandments was He speaking of? The Ten Commandments?

He is the same yesterday today and forever!
</font>[/QUOTE]What commandments? What law?
Rom.3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The Bible does not contradict itself.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah is the single most quoted OT author in the NT and also in the book of Revelation.

So the first reference that we find of the New Heavens and New Earth" in the OT as a single concept is found in Isaiah and repeated by John in Revelation 21.

Isaiah 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.

23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.
24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.''

There is No mention in Isaiah of a millenium or 1000 year limit to this future time of New Heavens and New Earth. And this is wonderful since the event happens AFTER the Millenium according to Rev 21. And for those who wish to insert a gap into the text of Isaiah 66 - no mention of a thousand years for the time of Sabbath-to-Sabbath worship services for all mankind.

In the same way - (consistently as it turns out) - there is no "limit" set in Rev 21 to the New Heavens and New Earth being within the 1000 years time limit. Rather it is an event AFTER the 1000 years.

Isaiah 66 takes us to the New Heavens and New Earth and THEN introduces us to the Sabbath-to-Sabbath worship services for ALL mankind. No matter how you slice it - this is Future to the Cross and shows ALL mankind - without limit of time or people - observing the Sabbath.

It is innescapable.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 15, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
Christ never perfectly restored the Sabbath Day.

Christ specifically addresses the Jewish abuse of the Sabbath numerous times in scripture - and in Mark 2:27 He restores the correct view of it stating that it was a blessing NOT merely for Jews - but for "MANKIND" -- "The Sabbath was Made FOR Mankind" Mark 2:27

Impossible to miss - with its devastating implicatoin to Jews who wanted to abuse it and limit it to themselves, Just as it is devastating to many today who want to abolish it and limit it to Jews Instead of MANKIND.

Christ's words are absolute and penetrating "The Sabbath was Made For Mankind" Mark 2:27.

DHKHe became our Sabbath for us. He is our Sabbath.

Those are excellent examples of statements about the Sabbath that we do not find in all of scripture. So we have many today that will make them up - in the absence of such a scripture about the Sabbath OR about Christ 'being Sabbath'. It is a classic argument out of the void of what scripture does not say.

On the OTHER hand

DHK
He is not a day, but a rest. He is our rest; we enter into his rest when we are saved.

The Rest that Christ offers in salvation is in no way at war with His Own 7th-day Holy Day memorial of Creation. Instead - the FRUIT of Resting in Christ is "The Law Written on the Heart" Heb 8:8-12. It is Harmony with God instead of rebellion against His law. "By Faith we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31.

This was true for the Sabbath keeping OT Saints listed in Hebrews 11, this was true of the Sabbath keeping NT Disciples and it was true of the Sabbath keeping Christians of the NT as it is still true today.

Resting in Christ does not mean "freedom to dishonor parents" nor does it mean "freedom to abuse His Holy Seventh-day memorial of His Creative Act". Rather we are STILL called to "Worship Him who made the Heavens and the Earth and the Sea" Rev 14:7

The OT saints never "earned salvation" by "not killing" or by "Honoring their parents", and we don't earn salvatin that we either. The same holds for the blessing God "made for Mankind" oin the Sabbath day.

Why be so confused about that blessing from the Sovereign creator of the Universe? Why not just accept it - as well as the commandments to honor parents, refrain from taking God's name in vain - etc? Why pretend that if we honor our parents we are "earning salvation" or that if we worship God "From Sabbbath to Sabbath" as "all mankind comes before Him to Worship" - then we are denying the Creator that we worship? Your arguments on that point are conflicting.

--------------------------------

DHK
He alone can give perfect rest by trusting in His sacrificial work by faith alone. Then we enter into His rest--not a day; but a person, the person of Jesus Christ. We are in Him, and He in us.

Amen! And true for us Today regarding the Messiah Jesus Christ - as it was true for the Sabbath keeping saints of Hebrews 11 - the Giants of faith - some of whom translated to heaven without seeing death.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 15, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
Are you saying that what you are now calling the "law of death" will come back in the future?

When you argue that the Sabbath of Isaiah 66 where "ALL mankind comes before God to worship" is "just Jews" (an interesting way to define ALL mankind - but I can see why your model "needs" to do it)-- you are arguing that what you have called the LAw of Death - will be brought back to replace the Gospel of Grace.

DHK
God made a covenant with the Jews, not with you. God will re-establish the Jews in the land of Israel. He will fulfill His covenant with the Jews, not with you. You have no part and parcel with the covenant that God made with the Jews. The Sabbath was a sign of the covenant given to the Jews (Exodus 31). When the Jewish nation shall turn to their Messiah and be saved (Rom.11:26) the Sabbath shall be reinstituted. But for now, we are not under the law; but under grace

#1.ISaiah 66 does not say "Just the JEWS will Worship before God from Sabbath to Sabbath" - it says "ALL MANKIND".

#2. As much as you "need" ISaiah 66 to limit this to the 1000 years of Rev 20 - it associates it INSTEAD with the New Heavens and New Earth of Rev 21 and makes no mention of the 1000 years limiting the topic.

#3. Your statement above - about a no-Grace system where the LAw that you consider to be the Law of Death- replaces Grace as God's "approved System" -- demonstrates the classic view of a "Two Gospel" system Gal 1:6-9. Paul is very clear in Galations 1 - that promoting such a system would be bogus.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHKWhat commandments? What law?
Rom.3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In Romans 2:13 Paul shows the Law IN the context of Faith and repentance and IN that context says "The DOERS of the Law Will be Justified Before God".

In Romans 3 PAul address the works of the law "Apart from Faith" and shows that - God's Holy Just and Perfect Law - is "NOT" a system of salvation. It is authorotative in Continuing to PLACE all mankind under condemnation - showing All to be sinners - but it is not "an alternate savior". You can not go to the law for salvation instead of Christ. In Chapter 3 - "Works of the LAW" apart from Faith - is shown to be useless. BUT then Paul ENDS the chapter with the same point made in Chapter two - that IN the context of faith "We Establish the LAW" - the SAME Law that condemns ALL men as under sin - we "establish by Faith" Rom 3:31.

God does not change Malachi 3:6 - He is the "SAME yesterday today and forever" Heb 13:8.

One Gospel that operates in BOTH the NT and OT Gal 1:6-11. One Savior, One use of the Moral Law - to Define sin - and show that ALL are Sinners - IN all ages, that ALL need a Savior (Jesus Christ the Righteous).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

quote:Isaiah 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.
24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.'' There is No mention in Isaiah of a millenium or 1000 year limit to this future time of New Heavens and New Earth. And this is wonderful since the event happens AFTER the Millenium according to Rev 21. And for those who wish to insert a gap into the text of Isaiah 66 - no mention of a thousand years for the time of Sabbath-to-Sabbath worship services for all mankind.
You seem to be the one with the faulty time-line here. If all of Isa.66 is speaking of a New Heaven and a New Earth, then why would God create a new earth with death and destruction in it? Your not making sense here. Verse 24 says: "They shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against me." Who are those men? If it is in a new heaven or a new earth, will there be corpses of men whose worm will not die and their fire not be quenched, and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." This is what God is going to create anew (according to you).
Rather, after the rapture of God's children (the saved in Christ), there will take place a seven year period of tribulation when God's wrath will be poured out on this world. This is described in Rev.6 to 19. After seven years Christ will come back with his armies in Heaven and defeat those armies on the earth who have collectively gathered themselves against Israel. This will be the Battle of Armageddon. See also Rev.19. Immediately after this Second Coming Christ will establish His rule on earth for 1000 years. The armies of the earth are destroyed at the end of Rev.19, and the thousand year reign is introduced in the beginning of chapter 20. It will end at the second resurrection with the Great White Throne Judgement. After that judgement God will make a new heaven and a new earth, and not before then. That is described in chapter 21. Everything in Isa.66 refers to the Millennium Kingdom, even though he refers to the new heaven and new earth, it is still a future prophecy, and he is still describing the millennial kingdom.
Isa.65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD
Chapter 65 goes along with it. Does this sound like either today or like a new earth, either one? No! It is the Lord restoring this earth to what it was before the curse. It is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

The Rest that Christ offers in salvation is in no way at war with His Own 7th-day Holy Day memorial of Creation. Instead - the FRUIT of Resting in Christ is "The Law Written on the Heart" Heb 8:8-12. It is Harmony with God instead of rebellion against His law. "By Faith we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31.

This was true for the Sabbath keeping OT Saints listed in Hebrews 11, this was true of the Sabbath keeping NT Disciples and it was true of the Sabbath keeping Christians of the NT as it is still true today.

You have yet to demonstrate this true. You have not given one iota of evidence that the New Testament disciples kept the Sabbath, nor any evidence at all that there is any command in the New Testament to keep the Sabbath. In all of this discussion you utterly fail in this that I continually ask of you. Where is the evidence? Where are we commanded to keep the Sabbath? Where? Chapter and verse please?
DHK

 

[Netcurtains3]

In Germany everything is closed on Sunday.
In the UK everything is open on Sunday.

 

[Keith M]

It has been mentioned that the early church taught on the Sabbath in Acts 13. Those who taught on the Sabbath were teaching in the synagogues in an attempt to convert as many Jews as possible. It would make sense to go to where there would be a gathering, and to go on the day when there would be the most people there. To go on any other day of the week would have resulted in far fewer people hearing the Gospel. Just because the early church directed its mission efforts to reach as many people as possible doesn't mean that the church did not meet on the first day of the week.

Exodus 31:12-17 is often either conveniently overlooked or totally ignored by those who would have us all living under the law. Verses 16 and 17 are especially enlightening. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign betwen Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed. (Exodus 31:16-17 NKJV) This passage says that the Sabbath is a covenant sign between God and Israel, not between God and the Gentiles or God and the world in general. To place this restriction on the Christian is to deny the finished work of the Cross.

 

[BobRyan]

It has been mentioned that the early church taught on the Sabbath in Acts 13. Those who taught on the Sabbath were teaching in the synagogues in an attempt to convert as many Jews as possible.

Acts 13 is another good example where "Sabbath after Sabbath" meetings were held and it is the GENTILES that are asking for the next Sabbath meeting - NOT the Jews in Acts 13.

Now what "should" have happened - is that the Gentiles "should" have asked to meet AGAIN on Sunday after hearing the Sabbath centric evangelistic message - their request for a more Sabbath meetings while the Jews were totally against it - shows that this was NOT simply a bone tossed to the Jews regarding God's Holy Seventh day memorial of Creating MANKIND - and given as a blessing "MADE FOR mankind" Mark 2:27.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.
24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched;

#1. The text places the New Heavens and the New Earth INTO the context of Sabbath After Sabbath worship services for ALL MANKIND.

#2. Even your OWN view of this shows this to apply to POST cross - NT saints - INSTEAD of killing God's Holy Seventh Day memorial of Creation that He "made for mankind" Mark 2:27.

#3. Although Isaiah 66 DOES reference the New Heavens and New Earth in conjunction with Sabbath-AFter-Sabbath worship services for ALL mankind - it does not mention ANY limit of 1000 years for FUTURE Sabbath observances. Nor does Rev 20-21 show the New Heavens and New Earth period to be confined within the 1000 years - but rather it begins after the 1000 years.

#4. John Choose to employ the SAME "New Heavens and New Earth" language of Isaiah 66 in Rev 21 showing us WHEN this takes place. And the "ALL MANKIND" scope that Isaiah 66 applies can not be construed as "Jews are All mankind".

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 19, 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
It has been mentioned that the early church taught on the Sabbath in Acts 13. Those who taught on the Sabbath were teaching in the synagogues in an attempt to convert as many Jews as possible.

Acts 13 is another good example where "Sabbath after Sabbath" meetings were held and it is the GENTILES that are asking for the next Sabbath meeting - NOT the Jews in Acts 13.

Now what "should" have happened - is that the Gentiles "should" have asked to meet AGAIN on Sunday after hearing the Sabbath centric evangelistic message - their request for a more Sabbath meetings while the Jews were totally against it - shows that this was NOT simply a bone tossed to the Jews regarding God's Holy Seventh day memorial of Creating MANKIND - and given as a blessing "MADE FOR mankind" Mark 2:27.
</font>[/QUOTE]No, what should have happened did happen. First, remember that this was Paul's first missionary journey. Second remember that Paul's policy was to preach to the Jew first and then to the Greek (or Gentile) Rom.1:16. Now notice the related verses in Acts 13:

14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

In verse 14 he entered into the synagogue on the sabbath and taught. Why on the Sabbath? Because that is when the people gathered together. They were Jews, remember? There was some allowance made for gentiles, as it was the gentiles that were the ones that persuaded him to speak the following sabbath. Then, the next sabbath almost the whole city came out to hear the Word of God: Jew and Gentile. Why on the Sabbath? It was simply the customary time for the Jews to meet then. As Christianity grew in popularity, that custom faded out, and meeting on the first day of the week became more popular, as one can see from the example given in Acts 20:7.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Isaiah 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.
24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched;

#1. The text places the New Heavens and the New Earth INTO the context of Sabbath After Sabbath worship services for ALL MANKIND.

#2. Even your OWN view of this shows this to apply to POST cross - NT saints - INSTEAD of killing God's Holy Seventh Day memorial of Creation that He "made for mankind" Mark 2:27.

#3. Although Isaiah 66 DOES reference the New Heavens and New Earth in conjunction with Sabbath-AFter-Sabbath worship services for ALL mankind - it does not mention ANY limit of 1000 years for FUTURE Sabbath observances. Nor does Rev 20-21 show the New Heavens and New Earth period to be confined within the 1000 years - but rather it begins after the 1000 years.

#4. John Choose to employ the SAME "New Heavens and New Earth" language of Isaiah 66 in Rev 21 showing us WHEN this takes place. And the "ALL MANKIND" scope that Isaiah 66 applies can not be construed as "Jews are All mankind".

The point remains.

Yes, no matter which way you look at it the point remains that the context of the entire passage of Isaiah 66 is directed toward Israel. For example:

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

See the mention of Jerusalem and the children of Israel. The entire passage is directed toward their comfort and is a promise for them. No matter which way you look at: new earth or Millennial Kingdom, it is future, and it is directed toward Israel. Therefore it is not for today, as the Sabbath is not for today. The Sabbath is a covenantal sign for the Jewish nation. When God begins to deal directly with the Jewish nation again He will reinstitute the Sabbath, but not until then. The Sabbath is not for today, it is a sign of the covenant for Israel and for their generations forever (Exodus 31). So, unless you are an Israelite, you have no obligation to keep the Sabbath.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Possibly the most devastating text in all of the NT for those who want to claim that the Sabbath after Sabbath services recorded in the NT are just to Jews OR that the Gentile evangelism conducted there was not the primiary (and in the case above - the Sole) purpose. But as we see in this Sabbath-After-Sabbath explicit sequence - it is the GENTILES and not the Jews that are requesting the FOLLOWING sabbath's evangelistic meeting.

AND the request is made AFTER the Jews LEAVE.

Devastating for the Sabbath-of-interest-to-Jews-only models.

And yet - it is still missed??

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 21, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

No matter which way you look at: new earth or Millennial Kingdom, it is future, and it is directed toward Israel.

Again - this too is devastating to the "Sabbath is dead at the cross" model. With the explicit inclusion of "ALL MANKIND" worshipping before God JUST as Israel does - Sabbath after Sabbath!! And linking that to the FUTURE event (post Cross Event) of the New Heavens and New Earth!! As I said - devastating!

Linkage of All Mankind - having the same FUTURE as FUTURE Israel in future events associated with the New Heavens and New Earth! And specifically in regard to Sabbath-after-Sabbath worship??

Praise God!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Possibly the most devastating text in all of the NT for those who want to claim that the Sabbath after Sabbath services recorded in the NT are just to Jews OR that the Gentile evangelism conducted there was not the primiary (and in the case above - the Sole) purpose. But as we see in this Sabbath-After-Sabbath explicit sequence - it is the GENTILES and not the Jews that are requesting the FOLLOWING sabbath's evangelistic meeting.

AND the request is made AFTER the Jews LEAVE.

Devastating for the Sabbath-of-interest-to-Jews-only models.
</font>[/QUOTE]No, devastating for those who keep the Sabbath still, or insist on others keeping it. Understand this verse, and the background. The Sabbath for the Jews only was a day of rest. That was not an imposition for the Greeks or other gentiles. If you think that they were keeping the Sabbath at that time you would be very naive to think so. They were very ungodly people. The synagogue was a multipurpose institution. It was built, not only to replace a need that replaced in part the loss of the Temple when the Jews went into captivity, but also as a teaching institution. It was here that the Jewish children were taught. It was used six days a week. One day a week was set aside for worship, the Sabbath. On that day Gentiles were allowed to come as well. If anyone was going to have any opportunity to hear the Word of God it would be in the synagogue on the Sabbath. That is where the Jews met and went. Remember it was Paul that said he went to the Jews first, and then to the Greeks.
There were no church buildings until 250 years after the death of Christ, so don't expect of reading about one in the Bible. However, by Acts 20 (verse 7), we find the New Testament believers meeting on the first day of the week.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

One day a week was set aside for worship, the Sabbath. On that day Gentiles were allowed to come as well. If anyone was going to have any opportunity to hear the Word of God it would be in the synagogue on the Sabbath. That is where the Jews met and went.

Yes - that is why AFTER the Jews LEFT - the Gentiles were the ones insisting that the Word be preached to them AGAIN - NEXT sabbath.

And that is why in Acts 15 - the Apostles state that the scriptures are read EVERY SABBATH - as a counter argument to requiring the Gentiles to be circumcised. James argues that the Genetils will be hearing the Word of God each Sabbath WITHOUT the need of being circumcised and BEING a Jew - under the same principle that we SEE taking place in Acts 13. Gentiles calling for hearing of the Word of God "The Next Sabbath".

And then what happens the "Next Sabbath" - "Almost the Entire City" shows up.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 22, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Yes - that is why AFTER the Jews LEFT - the Gentiles were the ones insisting that the Word be preached to them AGAIN - NEXT sabbath.

And that is why in Acts 15 - the Apostles state that the scriptures are read EVERY SABBATH - as a counter argument to requiring the Gentiles to be circumcised. James argues that the Genetils will be hearing the Word of God each Sabbath WITHOUT the need of being circumcised and BEING a Jew - under the same principle that we SEE taking place in Acts 14. Gentiles calling for hearing of the Word of God "The Next Sabbath".

And then what happens the "Next Sabbath" - "Almost the Entire City" shows up.

The Book of Acts is a historical book. Keep that in perspective. By Acts 20 they were meeting on the first day of the week.

 

[BobRyan]

There are "no" firstday-after-firstday meetings recorded in acts after chapter 19, or 18, or 17 or ... let alone 20.

The only thing we have in the book is the fact that at the start of each week they were to lays some funds aside for a future gift to be given at a future visit of Paul (certainly a funny way to announce - "remember the first day to keep it holy" or "from first day to first day shall all Christians come before Me to worship").

But we do have "sabbath-after-Sabbath" meetings recorded in Acts. AND we have the fact that Christ - before the Cross - and Paul AFTER the cross both "customarily" attended Sabbath services.

It would be hard to argue that Sabbath was not applicable to Jews before the cross. So Christs "pre-cross fulfillment" had to be in complete "harmony" with His own 7th day Holy day made a memorial of creation At creation. Made "For mankind" Mark 2:27 when it was made.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
There are "no" firstday-after-firstday meetings recorded in acts after chapter 19, or 18, or 17 or ... let alone 20.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.