Sovereign choice of God part deux

[JonShaff]

Romans 9! Romans 9!

Have you ever thought that due to the hardness of your heart that God hasn't allowed you to have understanding of Romans 9?

This is a poor attempt to squirm out from your failed argument. The scriptures are clear that God hardened Pharoah's heart. That may make you uncomfortable, but the scriptures are clear. Suck it up and own that you are wrong in this area.

 

[JonShaff]

This is a poor attempt to squirm out from your failed argument. The scriptures are clear that God hardened Pharoah's heart. That may make you uncomfortable, but the scriptures are clear. Suck it up and own that you are wrong in this area.

It's exactly what happened. Read the Story. Stop approaching everything academically just to support your theological presuppositions and let the Scripture dictate its own meaning.

 

[MennoSota]

It's exactly what happened. Read the Story. Stop approaching everything academically just to support your theological presuppositions and let the Scripture dictate its own meaning.

Nothing academic Jon. The scriptures show that you are wrong. Verse upon verse shows that you are wrong. You are at this point just being belligerent and shutting your eyes to God's word. Best thing for you to do is slink away or better yet, say "I was wrong."
Why do I think you'll keep digging your grave on this issue?

 

[Calv1]

Wow, I introduced that argument along time ago. The Arminian says "It's unfair for God to pardon some criminals but not others", but the Arminian forgets there are billions who never heard the gospel, is El Shaddai, who created the Heavens and Earth impotent and unable to get a bible in each home? Of course He can, but HE DOESN'T, so what's the difference?

I've won more over with that argument than any other, they realize before Creation billions would never hear the gospel. I'm at the point where I just won't debate it anymore, there is no reason, Reformed Theology is the gospel, it's found on every page of Scripture, even the Pagan King Nebuchadnezzar realized that God DOES all that He wishes, that man is as nothing, and no one can resist His will.

I want to say to Arminians, we know the thought, we've stayed up all night tossing and turning, but I promise you if you put God's word ahead of your traditions, emotions and just step out in FAITH, it will come together in a beautiful tapestry of His work, you'll start to give God the Glory He deserves instead of robbing Him of it, and we can't, I think truly understand that HIS GLORY is more important than any amount of humans, I know it sounds cold, but it's not, it's loving, All aspects of His glory MUST be shown or God is not just, if the highest good is hidden, it's wrong, so God does demonstrate both His justice and mercy, elects Israel over all nations of the world, Elects individuals over others for HIS OWN PURPOSES, "....He leads me in paths of righteousness FOR HIS SAKE", when we turn things up, put HIM FIRST, us a far second, things come into focus. All Religions of the world are man centered ultimately, I mean if God didn't ordain everything that is, how could He even get His Son crucified? "Shoot, they used that darn free will again, approved Him as King, got to try again". God Bless all!!

The last thread was closed before I could respond to a couple posts. I will answer one, and hopefully both tonight. If not, I will answer Brother Jon Shaff's post later.

Here is @InTheLight 's post..




We are in the New Covenant now. Law keeping is not salvific.<----ITL's post

Never said anything remotely close to that. However, God commanded the Jews to keep it, knowing they could not, and punished them accordingly when they broke it.

In the NC, we are commanded to be holy, as He is holy. This is not an option. We are commanded to be holy. God holds us responsible even when He knows we are unable to perform that which He demands.




Holiness is a part of sanctification, not justification. <----ITL's post

Never said anything different.



...
Yeah, and?<-----ITL's post


Well, you keep stating that it would be unjust for God to command ppl to do something He knows they can't do. Those three stats I showed you were from non-Calvinists. In India alone, 1.3 BILLION ppl have not heard the gospel. You can not repent of your sins, turn to God, when you have no idea who Jesus Christ is. Everything centers on the gospel, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent. But many died, are dying, and will die never hearing the gospel of the Christ. And they could not repent, turn to God, w/o knowing the God-man Jesus Christ.

 

[Calv1]

You realize that's a contradiction, "Theology" is the study of the BIBLE, GODS WORD. God said He would harden Pharaohs heart, LATER we read "Pharaoh hardened his heart", scripture unveiled

It's exactly what happened. Read the Story. Stop approaching everything academically just to support your theological presuppositions and let the Scripture dictate its own meaning.

 

[Calv1]

Yeah that's a massive problem, we are attached on things we don't believe all the time! I find it so funny when I see "Calvinism" used as a bad title, from the Reformation, Luther and Calvin essentially believed the same thing (Lutherans turned from Luther's theology later), but Reformed Theology WAS THE PROTESTANT CHURCH, all of our founding fathers, the Puritans read the Geneva bible, all up until the late 1800's with German "Higher Criticism", Spurgeon called it the "Downgrade", then with the advent of Pentecostalism, Holiness, etc. liberalism crept into the Church as it always does, to where the actual Orthodox Teaching is no longer Reformed but Liberal, there is not much true Christianity left in America, when you don't truly believe every word of God in context it's easy to see why, from the Joel Osteen and "You should be rich and never suffer" to Andy Stanley "Well we really can't trust Paul or scripture, only what Jesus said"?? Yeah it's nuts, I mean how many "Christians" actually believe, in context Isaiah "Lord why have you hardened our hearts so we fear you not"? Not many I sadly, and I mean it SADLY mean it. Or "Shall we receive Good from the Lord and not Evil". Few

I was in a bible study, we were talking about suffering, I read all of Hebrews 12, the leader said "Oh my god is not like that", "Not the God of the bible, ok bye", that's "Church" these days, we live in a biblically illiterate America, a post Christian America

I can't help but think there is plenty of guilt to go around. How often have you assumed "Calvinists" believe something you think they believe but, in fact, don't believe that at all? "_

 

[2Dennings]

I've won more over with that argument than any other, they realize before Creation billions would never hear the gospel. I'm at the point where I just won't debate it anymore, there is no reason, Reformed Theology is the gospel, it's found on every page of Scripture, even the Pagan King Nebuchadnezzar realized that God DOES all that He wishes, that man is as nothing, and no one can resist His will.

I'm sorry but even if I was a Calvinist I do not think I would say that "Calvinism is the gospel".

Explain this to me, how does "I've won more over" fit with Calvinism? You can't "win" people over to election.

 

[Revmitchell]

Nothing academic Jon. The scriptures show that you are wrong. Verse upon verse shows that you are wrong. You are at this point just being belligerent and shutting your eyes to God's word. Best thing for you to do is slink away or better yet, say "I was wrong."
Why do I think you'll keep digging your grave on this issue?

It is belligerent posts like this that cause the inability to have real discussions.

 

[JonShaff]

[Edited: Quoting a deleted post.]

You do realize that internet behavior is still real life Christianity, right?

 

[MennoSota]

You do realize that internet behavior is still real life Christianity, right?

Really? Thanks for letting me know!!! Whew! I was afraid I had lost my salvation. [emoji41] [emoji56] [emoji8]

 

[JonShaff]

Really? Thanks for letting me know!!! Whew! I was afraid I had lost my salvation. [emoji41] [emoji56] [emoji8]

No, you can't lose your salvation, but you sure can lose the power of your testimony or any credibility.

 

[MennoSota]

No, you can't lose your salvation, but you sure can lose the power of your testimony or any credibility.

Thankfully, what you think or feel about me has no standing between God and myself. God is faithful and just to forgive me as I confess my obvious failures.
Your condemnation does not bother me in the least.

 

[tyndale1946]

Thankfully, what you think or feel about me has no standing between God and myself. God is faithful and just to forgive me as I confess my obvious failures.
Your condemnation does not bother me in the least.

I agree with what you said and we can all agree to disagree... There is not one person on here that is going to agree with EVERYTHING EVERYONE one says on here but they might learn something... I know I do now and then when I listen... To the still small voice... Quiet... Listen... Brother Glen

 

[JonShaff]

Thankfully, what you think or feel about me has no standing between God and myself. God is faithful and just to forgive me as I confess my obvious failures.
Your condemnation does not bother me in the least.

Actually, it does. If you are out of fellowship with your brother, you are out of fellowship with God.

And i don't condemn you, that's a far fetched statement. I care about you and your relationship with the LORD.

 

[MennoSota]

Actually, it does. If you are out of fellowship with your brother, you are out of fellowship with God.

And i don't condemn you, that's a far fetched statement. I care about you and your relationship with the LORD.

So come back to fellowship. I love you through your error, Jon.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm sorry but even if I was a Calvinist I do not think I would say that "Calvinism is the gospel".

Explain this to me, how does "I've won more over" fit with Calvinism? You can't "win" people over to election.

Calvinism is NOT the gospel, but it does explain the best way what it is!

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, it does. If you are out of fellowship with your brother, you are out of fellowship with God.

And i don't condemn you, that's a far fetched statement. I care about you and your relationship with the LORD.

Jesus is our High Priest, and more times then he cares to be, our Babysitter, to make sure all of his kids get along!

 

[Calv1]

Really? A history lesson? After Luther we had John Calvin, he and Luther agreed on everything except minor issues. He wrote "Institutes of Christian Religion", and whether you wish to title it "Calvinism" or "Reformed Theology", it IS THE GOSPEL, that is after Rome, "What do we believe", he put together, best, what the bible teaches. All Churches were Reformed, founding fathers, every denomination in the West aside from some liberal Churches, the 1800's were terrible, we had Darby with his Dispensationlism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, and German "Higher Criticism", by the time HC hit England it affected the Churches, particularly Baptist in a big way, so much so Spurgeon called it the "Downgrade", basically no longer teaching Scripture, but liberal views of scripture and man made Religion (Amrinianism), then followed Pentecostalism, Holiness, Oneness etc, but up until this time there was one Church, and if you knew the bible you'd see Reformed Theology matches it perfect, not that it's perfect, IE Infant Baptism with some.

So in my debates, I engage in high level Scholarly debates, debating Dan Barker, head of "Freedom From Religion" foundation shortly, and when I debate liberals who deny Predestination, Sovereign Election, etc. their main objection is what Paul warned "It isn't fair", so I point out that if God DIDN'T Predestine some to Salvation, leave others in their rebellion against Him, if He just let life play out, BILLIONS WOULD STILL BE LOST, HE COULD STOP IT BY PUTTING A BIBLE IN EVERY IRANIAN AND INDIAN AND CHINESE HOME, but He doesn't, so what's the difference, EITHER WAY HE DECREED NOT ALL BE SAVED. If you are unable to understand this point I'm sorry, others do, and as stated it's very effective.

In addition, if God didn't decree all that happens, there is no way He could guarantee His Son would be crucified "Shoot I keep sending Him but out of their free will they just won't crucify Him", which of course contradicts Acts 4 where it states that God Predetermined Pilate, Herod, the Jews and the Romans to do what His hand has disposed". Finally there would be no guarantee THAT ANYONE WOULD COME, nope their free will trumped God's Free Will, just amazing, this is why I won't debate Arminians anymore.

I started as Arminian, I lamely fought Reformed Theology, but a true Christian with the Spirit, when faced with God's word "I prevented him from sinning against you" "Shall we receive good from the Lord and not evil", "If Calamity comes to a city has not the Lord brought it", "God hardened the Amorites hearts to hate Israel, that they might make way and be destroyed", "Oh Lord, why do you harden our hearts so we fear you not", "I pray NOT for the world, but for those you have given me", "NNE is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (Greek "Dragged") him, and I will raise it up on the last done, ALL that the Father Draws WILL COME", "The die is cast in the lap, but every turn is of the Lord", "The Kings heart is a stream in the hands of the Lord, He turns it everywhere He wishes", "The Lord is in the Heavens, and does all He pleases on Heaven, Earth and the deep", "I have reserved 7000 who will not bow the knee to Baal". "The Lord opened Lydia's heart so she could hear what he was saying", "All that were appointed to eternal life, believed", not the other way around as Arminians want it.

I could go on forever but there's not point, Arminians don't believe their own scripture, they'll make some sny comment, or throw out some ridiculous analogy to try to make God look bad for actin the way He does, but then there are other Arminians who had no idea Scripture, and above is just a taste, every page is filled with God's sovereignty, no one can jump over John 6, Romans 9 or Eph 1, the bottom line is that we are a sinful race, we are called rebels, haters of God, and it's not just of God to save everyone, it's not just to save anyone, so He does it for His name sake, for His own Glory, "Predestined before the foundation of the world........to the praise of His glory", in forming Israel He said "I'm about to act, but I do it for MY NAME SAKE, for how shall my name be blasphemed.

Once you accept this great truth, you'll notice it everyone "the Lord is my Shepard, I shall not want, He leads me in paths or righteousness for HIS NAME SAKE", not for Davids sake, but for God's sake. "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil", why would Christ tell us to ask God to NOT "lead us into temptation", "and Jesus was LED BY THE SPIRIT TO BE TEMPTED BY SATAN".

As I say once Arminians are faced with the truth, I mean really understand it, and THEN REJECT IT, they don't have the Spirit of God, I've just seen this too much, not saying they won't fight it like I did, but when faced with the full truth of God's revelation of Himself and how He acts, to reject that means the Spirit isn't there to discern the word, its THOSE I won't debate, and I can spot them a mile away anymore, but honest Christians who have trouble, but step out in faith WILL come to the truth, every biblical character knew God controlled all that is, even pagan King Nebuchadnezzar, he, like Arminians, was admiring his great Kingdom, and taking credit (Glory for it), he was warned by Daniel but his memory was weak, and sure enough God oops violated his free will, turned him into the mind of a animal, after His corrections the King said, "He does His will in the army of Heaven, and the inhabitants of Heaven, He establishes Kingdoms and tears them down, and no one can stop His will or say to Him 'what have you done".

So if anyone wants to learn the Faith of our Fathers, ask questions, but no debates, just a waste of time

I'm sorry but even if I was a Calvinist I do not think I would say that "Calvinism is the gospel".

Explain this to me, how does "I've won more over" fit with Calvinism? You can't "win" people over to election.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well then, good thing I'm not an Arminian then.

 

[2Dennings]

Really? A history lesson? After Luther we had John Calvin, he and Luther agreed on everything except minor issues. He wrote "Institutes of Christian Religion", and whether you wish to title it "Calvinism" or "Reformed Theology", it IS THE GOSPEL, that is after Rome, "What do we believe", he put together, best, what the bible teaches. All Churches were Reformed, founding fathers, every denomination in the West aside from some liberal Churches, the 1800's were terrible, we had Darby with his Dispensationlism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, and German "Higher Criticism", by the time HC hit England it affected the Churches, particularly Baptist in a big way, so much so Spurgeon called it the "Downgrade", basically no longer teaching Scripture, but liberal views of scripture and man made Religion (Amrinianism), then followed Pentecostalism, Holiness, Oneness etc, but up until this time there was one Church, and if you knew the bible you'd see Reformed Theology matches it perfect, not that it's perfect, IE Infant Baptism with some.

So in my debates, I engage in high level Scholarly debates, debating Dan Barker, head of "Freedom From Religion" foundation shortly, and when I debate liberals who deny Predestination, Sovereign Election, etc. their main objection is what Paul warned "It isn't fair", so I point out that if God DIDN'T Predestine some to Salvation, leave others in their rebellion against Him, if He just let life play out, BILLIONS WOULD STILL BE LOST, HE COULD STOP IT BY PUTTING A BIBLE IN EVERY IRANIAN AND INDIAN AND CHINESE HOME, but He doesn't, so what's the difference, EITHER WAY HE DECREED NOT ALL BE SAVED. If you are unable to understand this point I'm sorry, others do, and as stated it's very effective.

In addition, if God didn't decree all that happens, there is no way He could guarantee His Son would be crucified "Shoot I keep sending Him but out of their free will they just won't crucify Him", which of course contradicts Acts 4 where it states that God Predetermined Pilate, Herod, the Jews and the Romans to do what His hand has disposed". Finally there would be no guarantee THAT ANYONE WOULD COME, nope their free will trumped God's Free Will, just amazing, this is why I won't debate Arminians anymore.

I started as Arminian, I lamely fought Reformed Theology, but a true Christian with the Spirit, when faced with God's word "I prevented him from sinning against you" "Shall we receive good from the Lord and not evil", "If Calamity comes to a city has not the Lord brought it", "God hardened the Amorites hearts to hate Israel, that they might make way and be destroyed", "Oh Lord, why do you harden our hearts so we fear you not", "I pray NOT for the world, but for those you have given me", "NNE is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (Greek "Dragged") him, and I will raise it up on the last done, ALL that the Father Draws WILL COME", "The die is cast in the lap, but every turn is of the Lord", "The Kings heart is a stream in the hands of the Lord, He turns it everywhere He wishes", "The Lord is in the Heavens, and does all He pleases on Heaven, Earth and the deep", "I have reserved 7000 who will not bow the knee to Baal". "The Lord opened Lydia's heart so she could hear what he was saying", "All that were appointed to eternal life, believed", not the other way around as Arminians want it.

I could go on forever but there's not point, Arminians don't believe their own scripture, they'll make some sny comment, or throw out some ridiculous analogy to try to make God look bad for actin the way He does, but then there are other Arminians who had no idea Scripture, and above is just a taste, every page is filled with God's sovereignty, no one can jump over John 6, Romans 9 or Eph 1, the bottom line is that we are a sinful race, we are called rebels, haters of God, and it's not just of God to save everyone, it's not just to save anyone, so He does it for His name sake, for His own Glory, "Predestined before the foundation of the world........to the praise of His glory", in forming Israel He said "I'm about to act, but I do it for MY NAME SAKE, for how shall my name be blasphemed.

Once you accept this great truth, you'll notice it everyone "the Lord is my Shepard, I shall not want, He leads me in paths or righteousness for HIS NAME SAKE", not for Davids sake, but for God's sake. "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil", why would Christ tell us to ask God to NOT "lead us into temptation", "and Jesus was LED BY THE SPIRIT TO BE TEMPTED BY SATAN".

As I say once Arminians are faced with the truth, I mean really understand it, and THEN REJECT IT, they don't have the Spirit of God, I've just seen this too much, not saying they won't fight it like I did, but when faced with the full truth of God's revelation of Himself and how He acts, to reject that means the Spirit isn't there to discern the word, its THOSE I won't debate, and I can spot them a mile away anymore, but honest Christians who have trouble, but step out in faith WILL come to the truth, every biblical character knew God controlled all that is, even pagan King Nebuchadnezzar, he, like Arminians, was admiring his great Kingdom, and taking credit (Glory for it), he was warned by Daniel but his memory was weak, and sure enough God oops violated his free will, turned him into the mind of a animal, after His corrections the King said, "He does His will in the army of Heaven, and the inhabitants of Heaven, He establishes Kingdoms and tears them down, and no one can stop His will or say to Him 'what have you done".

So if anyone wants to learn the Faith of our Fathers, ask questions, but no debates, just a waste of time

I am not much of a debater which is why I don't say much on here but I'll point out a couple things in your response to me.

Arminians don't believe their own scripture

You say this but then you say

Once you accept this great truth

Which sounds like a contradiction to what Calvinists believe. We don't "accept" the truth, the truth is given to us. To "accept" the truth would be a choice.

And then you say

As I say once Arminians are faced with the truth, I mean really understand it, and THEN REJECT IT, they don't have the Spirit of God

Once again you say something that contradicts Calvinism. They can't understand without the Spirit. Sounds like another choice was made.

and,

but step out in faith WILL come to the truth,

This sounds like something I would say. Calvinist say faith is given to us where stepping out in faith implies a choice.

Not all Calvinists believe what they say, or maybe I should say "practice what they preach". This is not limited to Arminians or JW's or Mormons or Baptists or anyone else.

You might believe in Calvinism and put your faith in Calvinism but sorry, Calvinism is not the gospel!!! The gospel is what must be believed, or as Paul says, "obeyed" in order to be saved and it is not Calvinism. To imply that one must believe in, or obey, Calvinism to be saved would be preaching another gospel and you know what Paul says about that. I do know some Calvinists that would strongly disagree with you on this. This would apply to anyone who believes Arminianism or any other "ism" is the gospel. There is one gospel and there is no other name attached to it.