Sovereign Election

[Greektim]

True Calvinism cannot escape reprobation.

Nor do we try

 

[The Biblicist]

In Romans 9, clay and potter are mentioned in the same way as vessels of honor and dishonor.

See how Paul wrote of the vessels in 2Timothy 2, has nothing to do with being chosen to be saved from hell. It's an issue of how holy one conducts himself.

2Timothy 2 is a condensed version of what Paul wrote in Romans 8-10 - even in the same order:
Suffering, reigning with Christ, vessels, name the Name of the Lord

James, the vessels in 2 Tim. 2 are all in the same "house" and he is speaking of Christians being fitted with different measures of grace for God's service. In Romans 9 he is speaking of the difference between heaven ("glory") and hell "fitted to destruction." I am sorry but they are not comparative at all.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Nor do we try

It's not biblical at all that God condemns people for doing exactly what he (supposedly) created them to do. In fact just the opposite is what the Bible teaches.

 

[The Archangel]

It's not biblical at all that God condemns people for doing exactly what he (supposedly) created them to do. In fact just the opposite is what the Bible teaches.

What, exactly, are you thinking (or suggesting) that God created people to do? Rebel against Him?

The Archangel

 

[robustheologian]

All mankind by nature are reprobates. Election is NEVER to damnation - NEVER! Find me one text that says anyone was "chosen" or "elected" to damnation.

Romans 9:20-24 characterizes the elect as vessels of "mercy" which necessarily implies an already just condemned state or the word "mercy" is rendered worthless.

Infralapsarianism seems willing to go only halfway in respects to God's decree. If God has decreed that some will be saved, how is that not a decree to damnation for those who have not been so decreed?

A very simple definition of reprobation would be non-election. All who are not chosen for salvation are destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9), albeit because of their own disobedience...but even that disobedience is ordained. (1 Pet. 2:8).

It's not biblical at all that God condemns people for doing exactly what he (supposedly) created them to do. In fact just the opposite is what the Bible teaches.

God did not create man with the proclivity to sin...Adam cheated himself and the whole race into this bondage to disobey because of his disobedience.

 

[savedbymercy]

Does God hate some babies and loves other babes before they do anything good or bad?

Of course Rom 9:11-13 !

 

[robustheologian]

Does God hate some babies and loves other babes before they do anything good or bad?

He does if love doesn't have degrees....but we know that's not true. So the answer is no.

 

[salzer mtn]

All mankind by nature are reprobates. Election is NEVER to damnation - NEVER! Find me one text that says anyone was "chosen" or "elected" to damnation.

Romans 9:20-24 characterizes the elect as vessels of "mercy" which necessarily implies an already just condemned state or the word "mercy" is rendered worthless.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? Notice the last part of the verse, He made one vessel to honour and another to dishonor. Is not this saying in different wording he created one vessel to honour and he created the other to dishonour ? Rom 9:17 Did not God have a purpose in mind when he raised up or created Pharaoh ?

 

[salzer mtn]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. There are four things in this verse that the Lord said that he did. Three of those things men has no problem with but the forth which is evil no one wants to touch this with a ten foot pole. Can anyone explain this verse without saying it makes God this or that if he created evil ? I look for answers all the time about certain verses of scripture, but I have come to the conclusion I cannot know every thing about God, I just bow down and worship him.

 

[robustheologian]

...I have come to the conclusion I cannot know every thing about God, I just bow down and worship him.

Any interpretation of Scripture that leads to this is the correct interpretation. I wish others were humble enough to know that they cannot know every thing about God. :thumbs:

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

All mankind by nature are reprobates.

Thats not true, to be reprobated is to be rejected, unapproved, but the Elect by Nature are accepted and reconciled to God, while they are being enemies Rom 5:10.

Now all men by nature are children of wrath and have a sinful evil nature, but those Christ died for are still accepted and Loved by God while they are being enemies by nature, but there is no hope of salvation for the reprobated !

Election is NEVER to damnation

What scripture says its not ?

Men are made as Vessels of wrath and are fitted for destruction ! God has predetermined the fate / destiny of each person before they were born ! He made the wicked for the day of evil Prov 16:4 !

 

[Greektim]

It's not biblical at all that God condemns people for doing exactly what he (supposedly) created them to do. In fact just the opposite is what the Bible teaches.

If God created people to bring him glory, and if part of that means to demonstrate his wrath, then I totally think it biblical to create some vessels for destruction to demonstrate his wrath.

Rom. 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

 

[Van]

According to the mistaken view of Calvinism, God causes every person from conception to have total spiritual inability, they are unable to seek God and trust in Christ. Now if God does not supernaturally alter them (via Irresistible Grace, the Efficacious Call, the Gift of Faith) they are compelled by the nature God gave them to sin in various ways and are never able to seek mercy. But then God punishes them for the sins He predestined, and that is ok because that demonstrates God's glory.

You have got to love them folks!

 

[Rippon]

According to the mistaken view of Calvinism, God causes every person from conception to have total spiritual inability, they are unable to seek God and trust in Christ.

No, that is Vanology speaking. No Calvinist believes that God causes people to have total spiritual inability. It comes down the line from Adam. Do yourself a favor and read Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Cor. 15:22. God doesn't infuse sin into anyone. You really need to keep things straight. You're falling into the Steaver/DHK trap of misrepresentation. Don't do that.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, that is Vanology speaking. No Calvinist believes that God causes people to have total spiritual inability. It comes down the line from Adam. Do yourself a favor and read Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Cor. 15:22. God doesn't infuse sin into anyone. You really need to keep things straight. Your falling into the Steaver/DHK trap of misrepresentation. Don't do that.

Good catch Rippon......the Twaddlemaster tried to sneak in the back door, but you have halted his foul posting before it gets going:laugh::thumbsup::wavey:

 

[PreachTony]

According to the mistaken view of Calvinism, God causes every person from conception to have total spiritual inability, they are unable to seek God and trust in Christ. Now if God does not supernaturally alter them (via Irresistible Grace, the Efficacious Call, the Gift of Faith) they are compelled by the nature God gave them to sin in various ways and are never able to seek mercy. But then God punishes them for the sins He predestined, and that is ok because that demonstrates God's glory.

You have got to love them folks!

I don't agree, Van. My takeaway from the Cals on this board, and from my own study, is that it is their belief that man is born with total inability/depravity. Whatever word they use will influence their argument, and I've heard both. Blame is not imputed to God for man being unable/depraved. I don't hold to this belief, but at least most of the Cals are quite consistent in it.

So they see man being unable to seek God. Where I fall out with the Calvinist position most clearly is in the idea that God has to grant man the ability to repent. We know from scripture that God commands all men everywhere to repent. However, if the Cals are correct, man is incapable of repentance without God first enabling him. My good friend Willis once described:

All men all required to repent(Acts 17:30), and repentance is a gift of God, yet not all will receive this gift, Brother SW.

Granted I sort of yanked that out of the context of the thread, but that was the general tenor of the statement. Read that thread to see more. I've stated many times that I just don't see a Biblical backing for God commanding all men to repent (this part is Biblical, it's the remainder of the argument that gets me), but man only being able to repent if God gives him the "gift of repentance," but God withholding that gift from some, not allowing them opportunity to repent, and then blaming them all the same for something He never gave them opportunity to do.

Now, I fully believe God is God; He can do whatever He wants, as the potter has rights over the clay. But I also believe God is a consistent and unchanging God, and therefore he would not go against the very scriptures in His own Word that reveal man having an ability:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[PreachTony]

Back to the OP

Does God hate some babies and loves other babes before they do anything good or bad?

To this, I've always personally thought of children as "protected," if you will.

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Deuteronomy accounts children/babies as having no knowledge of good and evil.

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

Jeremiah writes of children from "not so godly" families, essentially pagans, as being "innocent."

That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

Ezekiel writes about babies/children of pagan families as being [God's] children.

Hard to say babies are damned if God is referring to them as His children. Perhaps there is something to this idea that we aren't held accountable to sin until we reach/attain a certain understanding of it.

 

[Van]

Do not be fooled by Calvinists denying their doctrine. Total Spiritual Inability did not just happen, it is the result of God's curse upon Adam.

Today - all men and women sin because they are born sinners. Adam's disobedience and the resultant curse by God mean that we are all born with a nature that is sinful.

Note that both Mr. Rippon and Mr. Iconoclast denied the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability. Discussions with these two just muddy the water.

 

[Van]

Hi PreachTony, why are people born or conceived with total inability. The answer according to Calvinism, from published sources, is the curse God imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin.

And yes, they say that God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, i.e. exhaustive determinism, yet deny that God is the author of sin. Such a position is irrational.

If we can agree on what Calvinism actually teaches, then we can discuss the merits or lack thereof concerning their doctrines. Naturally I disagree with the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, believing instead that the bible teaches limited spiritual ability of fallen people.

 

[robustheologian]

Hi PreachTony, why are people born or conceived with total inability. The answer according to Calvinism, from published sources, is the curse God imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin.

And yes, they say that God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, i.e. exhaustive determinism, yet deny that God is the author of sin. Such a position is irrational.

If we can agree on what Calvinism actually teaches, then we can discuss the merits or lack thereof concerning their doctrines. Naturally I disagree with the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, believing instead that the bible teaches limited spiritual ability of fallen people.

This is turning into an rational vs. biblical debate. What appears to me is that a Calvinist would rather be biblical while a non-Calvinist would rather be rational. As for me, I'll choose the Bible any day.

Scripture teaches total inability in so many places.

Genesis 2:16-17 — And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

John 6:44 — No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 3:10-12 — as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”