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Sovereign Election
- Thread starter Robert William
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PreachTony
Active Member
Just for the record, I'm a non-Cal and I'd like to think I stick as close to the scripture as I can. I simply have a different interpretation of it than you do.
Most good Christians stick close to scripture. And you don't have to be a Calvinist to be a good Christian. :thumbs:
Again, that is not true. Please do not repeat things that are false. You need to be honest. That will impede your normal way of doing things --but you must try.
If you think Calvinists believe what you think they do on this issue, then you need to document. You need to back up your assertions. Please give citations. Thank you.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
The same reason why some are elect: by the foreknowledge of God of those who would believe by the aid of his grace versus those who would not even though surrounded by and offered the same aid of grace.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
If God knows everything everyone does before they do it, then your question doesn't make sense, unless God doesn't have foreknowledge, which is quite heretical.
Hi Robusttheologian, lets go over your assertions one by one.
1) I say Calvinism is both irrational and unbiblical, not one or the other. So you start with a mischaracterization.
2) Scripture does not teach total spiritual inability of all fallen people at all times.
a)Gen. 2:16-17 indicates Adam had a choice and was not compelled by Total Spiritual Inability.
b) John 6:44 says you must first be drawn before you can come to Jesus. It does not say fallen people cannot be drawn.
c) Romans 3:10-12 does not say "at all times." That is added by Calvinist interpretation. But the passage can be understood to be part of Paul's proof that all are under sin, because we are not righteous, when we sin, we do not understand the penalty when we sin, and we are not seeking God when we sin. Thus the quote proves that we all sin.
b) John 6:44 says you must first be drawn before you can come to Jesus. It does not say fallen people cannot be drawn.
c) Romans 3:10-12 does not say "at all times." That is added by Calvinist interpretation. But the passage can be understood to be part of Paul's proof that all are under sin, because we are not righteous, when we sin, we do not understand the penalty when we sin, and we are not seeking God when we sin. Thus the quote proves that we all sin.
Now lets turn the tables, and you address my verses: Matthew 23:13 where fallen unregenerate men are "entering heaven" thus at that point in time seeking God, yet are blocked by false teachers. This demonstrates that some men have some ability to seek God without irresistible grace alteration. Thus they have limited spiritual ability, making total spiritual inability as affecting all fallen people at all times unbiblical.
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I believe God did not make or compel Adam to sin, that Adam sinned of his own volition. Thus it seems true God knew beforehand that Adam would sin, because God had chosen His Lamb before the foundation of the world, and therefore we can agree that God "arranged" the fall, but if you take it further with Calvinism's exhaustive determinism, then we disagree.
Please remember that Love/Hatred of God refers to the view that God has Covenant people, those are the ones to whom he has freely chosen to be His own people, so that He still loves all the others, but he does nothave THAT kind of love towards them, as that is reserved to those in relationship with him..
You can love your friends, but love your own family more...
Van.
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It does not say saved persons eat strawberries either.....but what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?????:wavey:
:laugh:
Is the words "at all times" todays phrase that pays...Dr Van Twaddle?
This was a classic....lol
:laugh: now you see it, now you don't....lol part time sinners...interesting theory:laugh:
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It does not say saved persons eat strawberries either.....but what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?????:wavey:
:laugh:
Is the words "at all times" todays phrase that pays...Dr Van Twaddle?
This was a classic....lol
a) Adam did have a choice but it seems to be God's intent for what happened to actually happen if he placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden KNOWING FOR CERTAIN that he would eat from it.
b) Fallen men are those that have not been drawn.
c) Total depravity does not teach that we sin all the time and doesn't need to for it to make sense. However, it should be noted that the Bible says anything that doesn't come from faith is sin (Rom. 14:23b).
As far as Matt. 23:13 goes, there is a lot of figurative language. The Pharisees can not hinder any elect person from being saved or lock the door to heaven. This just makes those destined to hell more culpable.
That quote from from Van's anonymous source was :"Today --all men and women sin because they are born sinners. Adam's disobedience and the resultant curse by God mean that we all are born with a nature that is sinful."
I agree with that quote. But that quote does not = God causes people to have total spiritual inability. There was indeed a curse placed on mankind as a result of the Fall. Do you deny that?
In Romans 5:17 it says in part that "the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man." Do you agree?
In verse 19 it says that "the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners" --do you agree?
Agreed no plan of God can be thwarted.
No, that is without support. Fallen men refers to everyone except Jesus. By the disobedience of the one, the many were made sinners.
That is not what I said. Calvinism interprets wrongly that "no one seeks God" means "no one seeks God at any time" in a fallen state. But that is not what Romans 3:10-11 says. No need to introduce yet another verse before addressing my verses.
Saying it is figurative is simply to say it does not mean what it says. It says what it says. Fallen men were seeking God at some time, therefore Total Spiritual inability is unbiblical. Irresistible Grace is also a mistaken doctrine, but lets try to discuss Total Spiritual Inability.
Please do not introduce one subject after another, lets see if we can agree on what the bible says about Total Spiritual Inability.
Mr Rippon continues to deny Calvinism. Anyone who pays attention to how he characterizes the statements of others is naive. I provided a quote, whereas he has provided no published source that denies the result of the fall was total spiritual inability according to Calvinism. None, zip, nada, and folks, note not one Calvinist has posted that the published view is correct. But even the WCF says this, ""Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;" Yet another published source says the, "since the fall man rests under the curse of sin, that he is actuated by wrong principles, and that he is wholly unable to love God or to do anything meriting salvation.
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savedbymercy
New Member
1. Scripture is often used to interpret other scripture.
2. Figurative language exists in too many places to just ignore (i.e. symbolism, metaphor, anthropomorphic, etc.). To not understand when scripture uses figurative language is in a way not reading in the context of the whole Bible.
3. Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and Isaiah 53:6 show that no one seeks God. How can one go after the world (Eph. 2:1-3) and God at the same time?
You are right, none seek after God all the time. Some have lost the spiritual ability to understand the gospel, and therefore never seek after God effectively.
However, Roman 3:10-11 does not say none seek after God at any time, which is the Calvinist addition to the text, changing its meaning.
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