Sovereign Election

[Van]

1. Scripture is often used to interpret other scripture.
2. Figurative language exists in too many places to just ignore (i.e. symbolism, metaphor, anthropomorphic, etc.). To not understand when scripture uses figurative language is in a way not reading in the context of the whole Bible.
3. Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and Isaiah 53:6 show that no one seeks God. How can one go after the world (Eph. 2:1-3) and God at the same time?

1) Yes we use scripture to interpret scripture. Non-germane to our discussion.
2) To dismiss any verse that contradicts man-made doctrine as "figurative" is without merit. Jesus was teaching us that men entering heaven can be blocked by false teaching. This proves both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are mistaken doctrines. So the defense is to change the subject. No sale.
Matthew 23:13 clearly and explicitly teaches Total Spiritual Inability does not apply to all fallen men at all times.

3) No verse, not one, teaches Total Spiritual Inability of all men at all times. None, zip, nada. Lets stick with Matthew 23:13 and when you agree it teaches your doctrine is unbiblical, or explain a reasonable view where it does not teach unregenerate men were entering heaven, then we can move on.

 

[robustheologian]

1) Yes we use scripture to interpret scripture. Non-germane to our discussion.
2) To dismiss any verse that contradicts man-made doctrine as "figurative" is without merit. Jesus was teaching us that men entering heaven can be blocked by false teaching. This proves both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are mistaken doctrines. So the defense is to change the subject. No sale.
Matthew 23:13 clearly and explicitly teaches Total Spiritual Inability does not apply to all fallen men at all times.

3) No verse, not one, teaches Total Spiritual Inability of all men at all times. None, zip, nada. Lets stick with Matthew 23:13 and when you agree it teaches your doctrine is unbiblical, or explain a reasonable view where it does not teach unregenerate men were entering heaven, then we can move on.

Jesus is pronouncing judgment on them because instead of pointing them in the direction of God, they abused their office to the point that they were turning people off from God. There’s nothing in the text suggesting those who the Pharisees were pushing away were not already destined for hell and not part of the elect. This scripture shows that the way of the Pharisees were pushing these people further into the sin and condemnation that they were already in. Irresistible grace overcomes all resistance. It overcomes the heart and mind’s resistance but it also overcomes external resistance like bad church experiences, bad preaching, and even bad people. From the Reformed/Calvinist view, it is too easy to see that those they kept from heaven were not meant to be saved to began with. Our flesh does not “allow those of us who would enter to go in” to salvation but for we who are saved, the Spirit overcame that resistance.

So the defense is to change the subject. No sale.

No one has changed the subject. The mere fact that I have engaged you this much has shown that I'm not interested in merely changing subjects. Anyone can see I have plainly and clearly addressed the topic. I hope you're not like others who throw invalid comments at something someone has taken the time to respond to.

 

[thatbrian]

3) No verse, not one, teaches Total Spiritual Inability of all men at all times. None, zip, nada. Lets stick with Matthew 23:13 and when you agree it teaches your doctrine is unbiblical, or explain a reasonable view where it does not teach unregenerate men were entering heaven, then we can move on.

No verse tell us that God is triune either, which is why when discussing complex theological subjects we use the whole counsel of scripture. This also means that Robustheologian was not off base when he was speaking about using context.

The mere fact that I have engaged you this much has shown that I'm not interested in merely changing subjects. Anyone can see I have plainly and clearly addressed the topic. I hope you're not like others who throw invalid comments at something someone has taken the time to respond to.

Great reply.

 

[Robert William]

1) Yes we use scripture to interpret scripture. Non-germane to our discussion.
2) To dismiss any verse that contradicts man-made doctrine as "figurative" is without merit. Jesus was teaching us that men entering heaven can be blocked by false teaching. This proves both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are mistaken doctrines. So the defense is to change the subject. No sale.
Matthew 23:13 clearly and explicitly teaches Total Spiritual Inability does not apply to all fallen men at all times.

3) No verse, not one, teaches Total Spiritual Inability of all men at all times. None, zip, nada. Lets stick with Matthew 23:13 and when you agree it teaches your doctrine is unbiblical, or explain a reasonable view where it does not teach unregenerate men were entering heaven, then we can move on.

No man on earth has the power to forgive sins or to save anyone, what the Pharisees preached was law and bondage, salvation by works, not salvation by grace through faith.

Joh_3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Van]

Jesus is pronouncing judgment on them because instead of pointing them in the direction of God, they abused their office to the point that they were turning people off from God. There’s nothing in the text suggesting those who the Pharisees were pushing away were not already destined for hell and not part of the elect. This scripture shows that the way of the Pharisees were pushing these people further into the sin and condemnation that they were already in. Irresistible grace overcomes all resistance. It overcomes the heart and mind’s resistance but it also overcomes external resistance like bad church experiences, bad preaching, and even bad people. From the Reformed/Calvinist view, it is too easy to see that those they kept from heaven were not meant to be saved to began with. Our flesh does not “allow those of us who would enter to go in” to salvation but for we who are saved, the Spirit overcame that resistance.

1) Jesus is pronouncing judgement. True, but his message contained other truths as well.

2) The idea that if something is not mentioned in the text, the idea can be said to be supported is without merit. They were entering heaven, thus they were seeking God effectively.

3) Irresistible Grace is shown to be mistaken doctrine by this text, Matthew 23:13, because those entering heaven and therefore being compelled by irresistible grace, were blocked. Thus the grace was resistible.

4) These men had of their own volition sought God, they were entering heaven, they had not overcome Total Spiritual Inability, their actions demonstrate the doctrine is mistaken.

5) As far as I can discern, none of your counter proposals nullify the fact that unregenerate men, not being compelled by irresistible grace, were in fact seeking God effectively, until blocked by false teachers.

 

[Van]

Hi Thatbrian, yes some biblical truths are based on logical necessity. If Jesus is God, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but we have only One God, then the Triune God is taught by logical necessity.

However, Total Spiritual Inability is not taught by logical necessity, in fact logical necessity requires reaching the opposite conclusion, fallen people have limited spiritual ability, they can understand spiritual milk but not spiritual meat. When God hardens hearts, that teaches they had spiritual ability that is removed during their lifetime. There would be no need to teach in parables if the fallen could not understand the straightforward teaching of the gospel.

 

[Van]

Hi Robert William, yes the Pharisees were teaching false doctrine, but how were the men entering heaven if they suffered from Total Spiritual Inability from conception? Answer, they could not. Now either Jesus was wrong or Total Spiritual Inability of all men at all times is wrong.

 

[savedbymercy]

You are right, none seek after God all the time. Some have lost the spiritual ability to understand the gospel, and therefore never seek after God effectively.

However, Roman 3:10-11 does not say none seek after God at any time, which is the Calvinist addition to the text, changing its meaning.

None Seek after God ! Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Van]

When, dear Sir, do they not seek after God. At any time? When they are sinning? Surely the mistaken interpretation, at any time must be rejected, because Matthew 23:13 teaches some seek God some of the time!!

 

[robustheologian]

1) Jesus is pronouncing judgement. True, but his message contained other truths as well.

2) The idea that if something is not mentioned in the text, the idea can be said to be supported is without merit. They were entering heaven, thus they were seeking God effectively.

3) Irresistible Grace is shown to be mistaken doctrine by this text, Matthew 23:13, because those entering heaven and therefore being compelled by irresistible grace, were blocked. Thus the grace was resistible.

4) These men had of their own volition sought God, they were entering heaven, they had not overcome Total Spiritual Inability, their actions demonstrate the doctrine is mistaken.

5) As far as I can discern, none of your counter proposals nullify the fact that unregenerate men, not being compelled by irresistible grace, were in fact seeking God effectively, until blocked by false teachers.

1. All other texts contain multiple truths (especially if you dig hard enough) but this truth of pronouncing judgment is the most relevant to what we're discussing.

2. I never said that if an idea isn't mentioned it can be supported. I said that if an idea isn't mentioned it just can't be denied. The Bible never talks of Jesus "relieving himself" but it would be silly to deny that he did.

3. This is going to sound very simple (one of those things too simple to miss), grace that is able to be resisted isn't irresistible grace. The mere fact that grace is resisted by those in this passage shows that it isn't the irresistible grace I'm referring to. If someone sells me unbreakable glass for a window and and it ends up breaking from a baseball or anything, then I know that the glass wasn't unbreakable.

4. We must not confuse seeking religion with seeking God. Men have an innate desire to worship something (Exodus 32). Many will go to hell because they sought after their idea of God and not God himself. No one seeks after the one true God and his Son unless that one true God draws him to Jesus (John 6:44).

5. It is true that nothing has proven that these men were not seeking God, but, as you said in your first point, an idea that isn't mentioned can't be supported.

 

[Rippon]

That quote from from Van's anonymous source was :"Today --all men and women sin because they are born sinners. Adam's disobedience and the resultant curse by God mean that we all are born with a nature that is sinful."

I agree with that quote. But that quote does not = God causes people to have total spiritual inability. There was indeed a curse placed on mankind as a result of the Fall. Do you deny that?

In Romans 5:17 it says in part that "the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man." Do you agree?

In verse 19 it says that "the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners" --do you agree?

Easy questions to answer Van. Try to do so.

Hey, here's a good quote from Charles H.Spurgeon :

"Permit me to show wherein this inability of man really does lie. It lies deep in his nature. Through the fall, and through our own sin, the nature of man has become so debased, and depraved, and corrupt, that it is impossible for him to come to Christ without the assistance of God the Holy Spirit."

That was taken from his sermon :Human Inability. It was preached on March 7,1858.

Van thinks people only have a disability. He ignores places in Holy Writ where it declares we were without strength, in darkness. We were blind and slaves to sin. And on and on. It's amazing to what lengths some people will go to deny the truths of God's Holy Word.

So, despite Van's deliberate distortions, I do in fact believe in toltal inability, total or pervasive corruption of the human soul before God's regenerative work on a person.

I remain a Calvinist despite Van's misrepresentations of my beliefs.

 

[Van]

Hi Robusttheologian,
1) The truth is non-germane to what we are discussing. Believers should not try to make God's inspired words to no effect.
2) No the opposite is true, if something is not mentioned, it cannot be considered biblical. Rather it is an invention of men.
3) Yes, the men entering heaven demonstrate the grace that drew them toward heaven was not irresistible. We agree! But the men entering heaven, i.e. in the process of entering heaven were seeking God, something that Calvinism denies.
4) No sale on the deflection that they were not actually entering heaven, but only seeking a false religion. Not what it says. Again, the verse clearly teaches they were seeking God effectively.
5) Logical necessity requires that if they were actually entering heaven, they were seeking God effectively.

Basically, we are done. I have proved to any objective reader, Total Spiritual Inability of all men at all times is unbiblical. Your response was in effect, that verse does not say what it says.

 

[Van]

Now lets turn to 1 Corthians 2:14 where states fallen unregenerate men have no spiritual ability to understand "the things of the Spirit of God."
Is there any debate on what it says? It does not say "all the things of the Spirit of God." It does not say "some of the things of the Spirit of God."
Thus we must use context to see if one or the other view is indicated. Hopefully we can agree on that!

Now if you keep reading you will see that the newly born believers could not understand spiritual meat, so Paul taught them "as men of flesh" using spiritual milk. Thus, by logical necessity, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is saying men of flesh cannot understand "some of" the things of the Spirit of God, i.e. spiritual meat.

Bottom line the very verse used by Calvinism to support total spiritual inability actually supports limit spiritual ability.

 

[savedbymercy]

Now lets turn to 1 Corthians 2:14 where states fallen unregenerate men have no spiritual ability to understand "the things of the Spirit of God."
Is there any debate on what it says? It does not say "all the things of the Spirit of God." It does not say "some of the things of the Spirit of God."
Thus we must use context to see if one or the other view is indicated. Hopefully we can agree on that!

Now if you keep reading you will see that the newly born believers could not understand spiritual meat, so Paul taught them "as men of flesh" using spiritual milk. Thus, by logical necessity, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is saying men of flesh cannot understand "some of" the things of the Spirit of God, i.e. spiritual meat.

Bottom line the very verse used by Calvinism to support total spiritual inability actually supports limit spiritual ability.

The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolishness to him because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man is any man not born again ! So they cannot receive the Truth of the Gospel, because its Spiritually discerned.

That coincides with the fact, those in a Lost state, which all natural men are in by nature, cannot believe the Gospel because as being in a lost state, it is being hid from them that they believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Its hid to them that are Lost, simple as that !

 

[Van]

Rather than avoid scripture, please address it.

Do you deny Matthew 23:13 which teaches natural man can understand enough spiritual milk to be entering heaven? Yes or No please. To ignore the question is disingenuous.

Rather than ignoring this fact, and presenting yet another bogus argument, devoid of any merit, why not address the fact that Calvinism interpreted 1 Cor. 2:14 out of context, and ignores Paul spoke to folks who could not understand spiritual meat as men of flesh, presenting spiritual milk.

I will repeat, there is absolutely no actual support for Total Spiritual Inability of all fallen people at all times. None, zip, nada. But unless any Calvinist presents an alternate view of the 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3 passage, no progress will be made toward truth.

So far I presented an alternate view of Romans 3:10-11 which is contextual, and an alternate view of 1 Corinthians 2:14 which is contextual. No alternate view of Matthew 23:13 has been presented, only the suggestion it does not mean what it says. No sale.

 

[savedbymercy]

Rather than avoid scripture, please address it.

Do you deny Matthew 23:13 which teaches natural man can understand enough spiritual milk to be entering heaven? Yes or No please. To ignore the question is disingenuous.

Rather than ignoring this fact, and presenting yet another bogus argument, devoid of any merit, why not address the fact that Calvinism interpreted 1 Cor. 2:14 out of context, and ignores Paul spoke to folks who could not understand spiritual meat as men of flesh, presenting spiritual milk.

I will repeat, there is absolutely no actual support for Total Spiritual Inability of all fallen people at all times. None, zip, nada. But unless any Calvinist presents an alternate view of the 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3 passage, no progress will be made toward truth.

So far I presented an alternate view of Romans 3:10-11 which is contextual, and an alternate view of 1 Corinthians 2:14 which is contextual. No alternate view of Matthew 23:13 has been presented, only the suggestion it does not mean what it says. No sale.

The natural man can't receive the things of the Spirit of God, they are spiritually discerned and So they are foolishness to him. Men in a lost state cannot believe the Gospel because it is hidden from them 2 Cor 4:3 !

 

[robustheologian]

Basically, we are done.

We are done...I've been kind enough to address you though you seem unreceptive and unkind in some of your remarks. I'm going back to my preparing for my doctoral exegesis and theology class.

 

[Van]

Once again the Calvinists have had no answers, other than I am a deeply flawed believer.

Saved by Mercy ignores the issue that 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3 teaches men of flesh can understand spiritual milk. Instead, he posts yet another verse that does not actually support Total Spiritual Inability. No effort to address the truth of the 1 Corinthians passage.

Likewise Robusttheologian, points to my supposed behavioral flaws, and then returns to his advanced study, never saying why he believes men who were entering heaven were not seeking God effectively, as taught in Matthew 23:13.

Calvinism cannot be defended scripturally or logically, it is unbiblical and irrational. Thus the opponents of Calvinism are demeaned and demonized. And so it goes....

 

[robustheologian]

Likewise Robusttheologian, points to my supposed behavioral flaws, and then returns to his advanced study, never saying why he believes men who were entering heaven were not seeking God effectively, as taught in Matthew 23:13.

Calvinism cannot be defended scripturally or logically, it is unbiblical and irrational. Thus the opponents of Calvinism are demeaned and demonized. And so it goes....

Just by your reply, it is easy to conclude that your behavioral flaws are not supposed.

I have clearly and plainly shown how this passage doesn't refute the doctrine of irresistible grace.

The actual reality is Calvinism cannot be understood as scriptural and logical AGAINST unbiblical and irrational opponents (such as yourself). Proverbs 18:2; Matthew 7:6; Proverbs 29:9

 

[Van]

You have got to love them folks, first RT addresses my supposed flaws, rather than my view, and then indicates opposition to Calvinism indicates behavior flaws.

RT did not even address Matthew 23:13, he suggested it could be dismissed as figurative and thus not true.

Then RT again attacks me personally, as irrational and unbiblical.

This is all they have. Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be unbiblical, as the unregenerate men of Matthew 23:13 were entering heaven. Thus they were seeking God effectively.

Irresistible Grace is also shown to be unbiblical by the same verse, Matthew 23:13 because if they were "entering heaven" under the influence of irresistible grace, they could not have been blocked.

Calvinism's doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability indicates fallen unregenerate men could not have been entering heaven, yet Jesus says there were. You cannot say they were seeking religion, because they were actually entering the heaven of God. The only answer is that Total Spiritual Inability is unbiblical.

No on topic response will be forthcoming, but stand by for a lengthy discuss of my flaws.