Speaking in Tongues Volume 3...

[Linda64]

What tongues speaking is not:

1. Tongues speaking is not the primary evidence of the Holy Spirit filling. The filling of the Holy Spirit is mentioned numerous times in the book of Acts (Acts 4:8-12,31-33)--but only one time is the speaking of tongues mentioned as the evidence (in Acts 2:4-11)

2. Tongues speaking is NOT for every Christian . Paul plainly taught that not every Christian spoke in tongues even in the first century(1 Cor.12:4,7-12,28-30).

3. Speaking in tongues should never be sought by the Christian. Paul told the Corinthian believers that they should covet the "best gifts" (1Co 12:31). Tongues were always sovereignly given-- * unlike today's modern "tongues" movement, where you are "taught" how to "speak in tongues". I know someone (a good friend of mine) who got into that at Marilyn Hickey's church in Denver. In order to get out of this "teaching group", he finally, out of desperation, recited the Sh'ma Yisrael (Hear, O Israel) in Hebrew. They let him leave because he had "spoken in tongues"--probably not even knowing that he was simply reciting a Scripture (Deut.6:4) in Hebrew! When he told me this, I could not keep from laughing. *

4. Tongues is not a heavenly prayer language. The tongues spoken in the early churches were real earthly languages (Ac 2:6-10). According to 1Co 14:2, tongues speaking was the giving forth of mysteries, which refers to revelation. The term "mysteries" in the N.T. refers to things that were hidden in O.T. times but are now brought to light (Ro 16:25-26; 1Co 2:7,10; Eph 3:3-5; Col 1:26). This is what we see on the day of Pentecost. Those that heard the disciples speak in tongues on that day said, "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" (Ac 2:11). Biblical tongues were languages, not some sort of unintelligible mutters.

5. Tongues is NOT for personal edification. God plainly tells us the purpose for tongues. It was to give a sign to the nation Israel regarding the fact that God was doing this new thing in starting the church (1Co 14:20-22). Paul tells us that tongues was a fulfillment of the prophecy in Isa 28:11-12.

(Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible: Article: Tongues Speaking: David Cloud) *I added my own personal notes also.

 

[music4Him]

Of course David Cloud would say that he is a Fundemental Baptist.

I could quote a few Spirit filled websites that would say what tongues are (but 1 it not permitted and 2 the Bible is a wonderful resourse.)


1. Tongues speaking is not the primary evidence of the Holy Spirit filling.

(1.)The Bible says they are a gift 1Cor. 12:4 , not eveidence. So no its not evidence of the Holy Spirit filling. The day you get save the Holy Spirit takes up residence with in you. The gifts may come immediately after or later down the road or not at all (that you can see). I see some who have the gift of dicernment and other with wisdom and knowledge, but if I told them they'd get all upset with me.

2. Tongues speaking is NOT for every Christian .

(2)No argument there...It is true you don't have to speak in tongues.


3. Speaking in tongues should never be sought by the Christian.

(3) Paul said, Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:1


4. Tongues is not a heavenly prayer language.

(4) 1Cor 13:1 says, Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


5. Tongues is NOT for personal edification.

(5) But then you have 1Cor. 14:4-5 that states....
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

It doesn't say its wrong to build yourself up.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith.....

 

[Ray Berrian]

Timtoolman,

You said, 'I disagree, where does it say it is a prayer language? Please don't use Paul's hyperbole that if I spoke with the tongues of angels etc.'

The answer that you are not looking for is found in I Corinthians 14:2. There is credible Scripture for praying to the Lord in private, prayer life. Also, study I Corinthians 14:4 a & in verse five Paul says, in fact, 'I would that ye all spake with tongues.'

No Christian has the right to delete verses from the N.T. that do not fit with their denominational views.

In the church if the 'gift of tongues' happens it always must have the 'interpretation of tongues' if it is from the Lord God. If someone speaks briefly in 'tongues' without the interpretation-- then they are out of order; this should never happen.

If we start deleting things in I Cor. 12 & 14 then we might start to not believe in some of Jesus' miracles, water baptism or perhaps the Rapture. [Revelation 22:19] (Berrian, Th.D.)

.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by music4Him:

4. Tongues is not a heavenly prayer language.

(4) 1Cor 13:1 says, Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Due to lack of time, I will answer just this one. Read the chapter (all of it) in context. Paul is making a smart remark. Though I speak in the foreign languages of people who are foreign or even the language of angels or gods. If you read it carefully, he is being very critical on those who abuse tongues and he is saying even if I could speak in all of these languages, he would rather people not use tongues.

I have always thought that it is funny that the one gift that Paul degrades the most is the very gift the Pentecostals use to try to prove baptism of the spirit.

If people would just read the Bible in context then they would understand it. All too often we pay attention to preachers who skip all over the Bible finding a verse here and there and making it say anything they want it to say. Just look at David Koresh; he was an expert at this method of teaching.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Timtoolman,

You said, 'I disagree, where does it say it is a prayer language? Please don't use Paul's hyperbole that if I spoke with the tongues of angels etc.'

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The answer that you are not looking for is found in I Corinthians 14:2. There is credible Scripture for praying to the Lord in private, prayer life. Also, study I Corinthians 14:4 a & in verse five Paul says, in fact, 'I would that ye all spake with tongues.'

No Christian has the right to delete verses from the N.T. that do not fit with their denominational views.

In the church if the 'gift of tongues' happens it always must have the 'interpretation of tongues' if it is from the Lord God. If someone speaks briefly in 'tongues' without the interpretation-- then they are out of order; this should never happen.

If we start deleting things in I Cor. 12 & 14 then we might start to not believe in some of Jesus' miracles, water baptism or perhaps the Rapture. [Revelation 22:19] (Berrian, Th.D.)

. </font>[/QUOTE]Why all of a sudden you have started signing your name with "Th.D."?

 

[atestring]

Is this subject still going strong?
Why such interest?
Are people still fighting this subject?
Are the people that fight this subject winning?
If so, how?

 

[Timtoolman]

The answer that you are not looking for is found in I Corinthians 14:2. There is credible Scripture for praying to the Lord in private, prayer life. Also, study I Corinthians 14:4 a & in verse five Paul says, in fact, 'I would that ye all spake with tongues.'

No Christian has the right to delete verses from the N.T. that do not fit with their denominational views.

In the church if the 'gift of tongues' happens it always must have the 'interpretation of tongues' if it is from the Lord God. If someone speaks briefly in 'tongues' without the interpretation-- then they are out of order; this should never happen.

If we start deleting things in I Cor. 12 & 14 then we might start to not believe in some of Jesus' miracles, water baptism or perhaps the Rapture. [Revelation 22:19] (Berrian, Th.D.)

. [/qb][/QUOTE]Why all of a sudden you have started signing your name with "Th.D."? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Ah yes I can see how you could mis-interpt that passage. Let’s look at the context. Paul is talking to the church of Corinth about corporate worship. Paul talks about not showing love by only edifying oneself in corporate worship. And if I have not love and have everything else, talk with the tongues of men and angels, understand ALL mysteries, and have ALL knowledge, and ALL faith I am nothing. Now this is hyperbole, Paul did not know all or feed all as stated but said IF. Now if we apply continue in the theme of love onto the next chapters we find the idea that those who speak in tongues are only there for themselves totally disregarding the edification of the whole body. Now let me remind you that the city of Corinth was a harbor or port. There were many different nationalities and at times some wanted to stand and give a revelation but others who did not understand could not be edified from it. Sure God understands what that person is praying but those around do not. It is a mystery to them. How can the UNLEARNED (or literally the un-educated, which also shows this to be a known language or learned) know what is being said or even say amen to it. So the message is clear that someone who does speak in a language to the body, without an interrupter, is performing an unloving and selfish act.

As far as deleting I don’t know what that is all a bout but if you feel I am deleting something then please show me.
If you read Corinthians as a letter to the church on corporate worship then things really become quite clear.

Tim

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some people deny that the 'gifts of the Spirit' are for the church age. This is basicly denying the truths that Paul is saying are in vital to the church. The apostle was merely trying to correct their mistakes with the use of these gifts. Paul wants us to focus more on preaching and teaching, so all hearers can understand.

In some churches they also misuse the gifts, but this does not mean that the Lord has crushed them under His feet to be used no more.

Some preachers preach things that are not true, but congregations do not readily toss the pastor out in the street. No, the church continues in spite of false ideas.

The main thing is John 3:16 and that as brethren we must love one another as Christ loves His church. This is the message of I Corinthians chapter 13.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Phillip: //Why all of a sudden you have started signing your name with "Th.D."?//

It isn't all of a sudden. Ray Berrian does it from time to time.

A Google search for //"Berrian Th D" site:baptistboard.com//
shows 59 results. So 'Berrian Th.D' has been used
in the last 10 months on 59 different pages.

It isn't all of a sudden. Ray Berrian does it from time to time.

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by Phillip:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:

4. Tongues is not a heavenly prayer language.

(4) 1Cor 13:1 says, Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Due to lack of time, I will answer just this one. Read the chapter (all of it) in context. Paul is making a smart remark. Though I speak in the foreign languages of people who are foreign or even the language of angels or gods. If you read it carefully, he is being very critical on those who abuse tongues and he is saying even if I could speak in all of these languages, he would rather people not use tongues.

I have always thought that it is funny that the one gift that Paul degrades the most is the very gift the Pentecostals use to try to prove baptism of the spirit.

If people would just read the Bible in context then they would understand it. All too often we pay attention to preachers who skip all over the Bible finding a verse here and there and making it say anything they want it to say. Just look at David Koresh; he was an expert at this method of teaching. </font>[/QUOTE]I have read the chapter Paul is saying if you do anything without "love" then its is as if you did nothing. I have to disagree with you when you say Paul is making a smart remark and if you read it that way then I don't know what to tell you. But you don't preach on love and make smart remarks at the same time! He would rather people put love first before they use a gift or give their selfs ect.

Paul does not degrade the gift and I do not say that people have to speak in tongues to prove baptism of the spirit. (Just so that you know not all tongue talkers believe you got to speak in tongues to prove your saved.) I know you get the baptism when you get saved, when asking Jesus being your Savior and not in the gift of speaking in tongues. Because even Paul says not all speak in tongues.

Quote by Phillip: (this bears repeating)
-------------------------------------------------
If people would just read the Bible in context then they would understand it. All too often we pay attention to preachers who skip all over the Bible finding a verse here and there and making it say anything they want it to say. Just look at David Koresh; he was an expert at this method of teaching.
-------------------------------------------------

Amen! I feel the same way! I don't wanna be a itchy eared Christian setting in my comfort zone. I just want to know Jesus more.

 

[Timtoolman]

Where is the special prayer langauge and what is its purpose?

 

[D28guy]

Timtoolman,

"where does it say it is a prayer language?"

1 Cor 14: 2-3:

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church"

(notice...absolutly no rebuke to the one speaking in tongues to God alone in prayer)

God bless,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Timtoolman,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"where does it say it is a prayer language?"

1 Cor 14: 2-3:

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church"

(notice...absolutly no rebuke to the one speaking in tongues to God alone in prayer)

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]This is where the Chrismatics take Scripture out of context. These verses in themselves are rebukes. Quite the opposite of which you just posted.

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

Look at your own hi-lighted passages.
1. you don't speak unto God, you speak unto men.
--a violation of Scripture.
2. You speak mysteries
--another violation of Scriptures.

The verse is a rebuke: a very obvious one. Read the entire chapter; the context. Nunber One. The gift of tongues (as in every other gift) was given to the entire church. There is no such thing as a selfish gift. There is no such thing as a private prayer language. There is no gift given to the edification of single individuals. The gifts of the Spirit were always given to the entire church. That principle in itself makes a private prayer language unsciptura. The verse is a rebuke to those who were using the gift as an excuse to use it selfishly for themselves. They were being carnal.
Secnod they were being carnal and selfish because they spoke in mysteries and no one could understand them. What use is a gift that no one could understand. It was a rebuke. The gifts of preophecy (and of teaching) were gifts that all could understand, and therefore had more value. They were to seek after those gifts (1Cor.12:28-31). The were the "better gifts." The list given in verse 28 puts tongues and interpretation of tongues at the bottom of the list, making them the least important of all the spiritual gifts. They were not to seek after those gifts.

There is no place where it says not to rebuke those that pray in tongues. In fact the opposite would be true.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

I had a whole explanation of this and lost it somehow. Your best guidance would be for you to study other translations, because you are not understanding the KJV.

All spiritual gifts are from God. Paul is merely correcting there err in using tongues in church without having another gifted person who can interpret what was said in church.

Private prayer language is also from God. Mysteries only means you don't understand the tongue, God understands everything that is going on. This is Theology 101. You 'missed the boat' on Scriptural interpretation. It is not your forte. Tongues is a gift from God and therefore cannot be 'selfish.' I agree that it can be used 'out of order' and this makes it wrong to use in the assembly of the saints.

Your statement about he gift of prophecy is correct and should be used so all can understand the message in their own language.

You said, 'at the bottom of the list' which is a true statment, but Paul says, don't forbid a Christian to speak in tongues in church [I Cor. 14:39]. Something that the Lord has given sovereignly as a gift to some, we have no right to disagree with the Lord God.

Tongues spoken in church without the 'interpretation of tongues' is done out of order in the mind of the Lord. This Paul was correcting in this epistle. [/Quote].

You said, 'Look at your own hi-lighted passages.
1. you don't speak unto God, you speak unto men.
--a violation of Scripture.
2. You speak mysteries
--another violation of Scriptures.

The verse is a rebuke: a very obvious one. Read the entire chapter; the context. Nunber One. The gift of tongues (as in every other gift) was given to the entire church. There is no such thing as a selfish gift. There is no such thing as a private prayer language. There is no gift given to the edification of single individuals. The gifts of the Spirit were always given to the entire church. That principle in itself makes a private prayer language unsciptura. The verse is a rebuke to those who were using the gift as an excuse to use it selfishly for themselves. They were being carnal.
Secnod they were being carnal and selfish because they spoke in mysteries and no one could understand them. What use is a gift that no one could understand. It was a rebuke. The gifts of preophecy (and of teaching) were gifts that all could understand, and therefore had more value. They were to seek after those gifts (1Cor.12:28-31). The were the "better gifts." The list given in verse 28 puts tongues and interpretation of tongues at the bottom of the list, making them the least important of all the spiritual gifts. They were not to seek after those gifts.

There is no place where it says not to rebuke those that pray in tongues. In fact the opposite would be true.'

 

[Ray Berrian]

Timtoolman,

You said, 'Where is the special prayer langauge and what is its purpose?'

ANSWER:

The answer is found in I Corinthians 14:4.

'He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself.'

With no 'interpretation of tongues' then this person should pray in this way in their home private prayer life. Why? No one in church would understand what he is saying, UNLESS God had given to another person the gift from the Lord called the 'interpretation of tongues.'

.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

I had a whole explanation of this and lost it somehow. Your best guidance would be for you to study other translations, because you are not understanding the KJV.

The most prominent trait that I have seen you display on this board, Ray, is your condescension toward others. If it makes you feel any better, I recently finished preaching through the book of First Corinthians and ended up with a commentary of over 600 pages long. I use the KJV constantly, as well as referring to the Greek and other translation. I believe I know and understandd with confidence what the verse knows. Indeed, I have studied it. I have finished preaching on every verse of this book.

Please don't tell me that I don't understand the KJV. I have grown up with it, and have some of the books committed to memory.

By your answers to my posts and your inability to either comprehend them or give an adequate rebuttal to them, I think it is you that has trouble understanding what the Scripture has to say in these areas.
DHK

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by atestring:
Is this subject still going strong?
Why such interest?
Are people still fighting this subject?
Are the people that fight this subject winning?
If so, how?

any comments??????

 

[tamborine lady]

This is happening all over the world! The gift of tongues is being given by the Holy Ghost to people all the time.

The people that are fighting againt it are just throwing out a lot of bluster and blather, and won't pay attention to the facts they are presented day after day!!

They remind me of Paul, when Jesus appeared to him.
Acts 9-5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[music4Him]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by atestring:
Is this subject still going strong?
Why such interest?
Are people still fighting this subject?
Are the people that fight this subject winning?
If so, how?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep this subject is still going strong!

Intrest? Because it is interesting!

Fighting? Who fighting? Some are trying to explain.... others just don't accept the explanation.

There are no winners or losers on this subject. Its a debate not a fight.

&lt;&lt;Looks like me and DHK going at it!

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"There is no such thing as a private prayer language. There is no gift given to the edification of single individuals"

Really? You have never prayed privatly to God in your "prayer closet", as Christ clearly spoke of?...

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrits, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues...that they might be seen by men"

"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door pray to your Father who is in the secret place"

"The gifts of the Spirit were always given to the entire church."

"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door pray to your Father who is in the secret place"

You have never had a personally uplifting and personally edifying time at home worshipping God? A personal devotional time of prayer and worship?

Now, I am going to assume that you will say "Oh yes! Of course I have had all of that..."

Which means that what you are actually saying, is...

"Yes, it is completly proper to have personal and private prayer and/or worship time with God, outside of the visible "body of Christ", and to be personally blessed and edified by it, but make sure that you...

never employ a gift of the Holy Spirit as you do."



Grace and peace,

Mike