Speaking in Tongues Volume 3...

[D28guy]

music4Him!

Your right!

Left guy: "Tongues are for today."

Right guy: "No they are not!"

"It says to in this scripture!"

"No it doesnt!"

"It says so in these scriptures!"

"No it doesnt!"

"This paragraph here makes it clear."

"No it doesnt!"

"Millions of people speak in tongues!"

"No they dont!"

"These hundreds of scriptures make it clear!"

"No they dont!"

Etc etc etc...

Mike

 

[music4Him]

Yep! Mike sad but true.

Just a suggestion.....Maybe we ought to step back and look at Pauls character of all his books he wrote? To acually get a mind set of how he really feels.
He explains the gifts (1Cor 12), puts up guide lines of the use of gifts (1Cor 12 & 14), then says to use them in love (1Cor 13) (maybe because some were using them for selfish reasons?) MOHO, There are some who abuse the gift and think themselves better than others that don't have it....to me that is an abuse also.

 

[Ray Berrian]

music4Him,

'You said, He explains the gifts (1Cor 12), puts up guide lines of the use of gifts (1Cor 12 & 14), then says to use them in love (1Cor 13) (maybe because some were using them for selfish reasons?) MOHO, There are some who abuse the gift and think themselves better than others that don't have it....to me that is an abuse also.'

What about those who get saved and abuse Jesus' grace [Romans 6:1]. After they are saved they dabble in other sins and still put on the smiley face at Sunday worship. There are abuses in all of the gifts that the Lord gives, so why make a big deal out of those who speak with tongues with no interpretation. Admittedly, the pastor needs to correct this abuse of the gift. But, this is not to say we should deny the 'gifts of the Spirit' any more than we would deny that Jesus gives salvation and freedom from sin, to those who love and obey Him.

My guess is that you can agree with me here.

I do not speak in tongues but will not deny that God uses these gifts in our generation. This would be to go against the Lord and His sacred Word. [/Quote'.

 

[D28guy]

music$Him,

"There are some who abuse the gift and think themselves better than others that don't have it....to me that is an abuse also."

I agree completly.

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

"There is no such thing as a private prayer language. There is no gift given to the edification of single individuals"

[qb]

Really? You have never prayed privatly to God in your "prayer closet", as Christ clearly spoke of?...

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrits, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues...that they might be seen by men"

"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door pray to your Father who is in the secret place"

I thought you would be intelligent enough to know that the context of the subject was tongues, as the title of this thread is "Speaking in Tongues Volume 3." After 3 Volumes...?? I will repeat it again for your sake. There is no such thing as a private prayer language in tongues. The Bible teaches no such concept--praying privately in tongues. It was a gift, the gift of tongues, given to the entire church. I hope that makes it more clear to you.

"The gifts of the Spirit were always given to the entire church."

"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door pray to your Father who is in the secret place"

Where is prayer, per se, listed among the gifts of the spirit in 1Cor.12? It isn't. Why are you being so ludicrous with this argument. But the gift of speakinhg in tongues is. Praying in tongues is not. It is not a gift.

You have never had a personally uplifting and personally edifying time at home worshipping God? A personal devotional time of prayer and worship?

Certainly I have, but that has nothing to do with the gift of tongues. Why are you off on this tangent. The topic is speaking in tongues which this has nothing to do with. Stick with the topic please.

Now, I am going to assume that you will say "Oh yes! Of course I have had all of that..."

Which means that what you are actually saying, is...

"Yes, it is completly proper to have personal and private prayer and/or worship time with God, outside of the visible "body of Christ", and to be personally blessed and edified by it, but make sure that you...

Demostrate through Scripture where any gift is used outside of the local church. All the gifts were used for the edification of the local church. Paul was writing to the church at Corinth. It was the church that had the gifts. It was for their benefit. The gift of healing was not given selfishly for the healing of one's own self. How abusrd. And yet Charismatics would follow that logic through, saying that the gift of tongues is given for the edifcation of one's own self. It is clearly not! None of the gifts were given for the selfish edification of one's own self. Name just one that is!
DHK

 

[music4Him]

quote by Ray:
-------------------------------------------------
My guess is that you can agree with me here.

I do not speak in tongues but will not deny that God uses these gifts in our generation. This would be to go against the Lord and His sacred Word.
-------------------------------------------------
Amen! Paul said that not all will speak with tongues. But those not gifted with tongues are still a very important part of the body. They just might be the feet that keep us grounded?

BTW, a funny thing I heard the other day about the body.....God won't put a underarm and a nose together.

Just like all of us..... we might not agree on alot of issues, but we still ought to get along.

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'None of the gifts were given for the selfish edification of one's own self.'

I notice also that you said those who do this are selfish. We all know you don't have the 'gift of disernment' so there is no way you can read the hearts of these people, especially since you seldom attend their services.

Secondly, God speaking through the Apostle Paul tells the church at Corinth that the person who speaks ' . . . in an unknown tongue . . . . is really speaking to God.'(I Cor. 14:2) Are you now telling us that we are selfish to pray to God the Father in Heaven? Probably not. You just don't like the Lord giving the 'gift of tongues' so they can pray to Him.

Secondly, they did not have churches in the sense that many Christians think about buildings. Many believers worshipped in large homes of the wealthy so there would be more room. In some cases a small home.

The Roman Catholic Church says that the church is where the bishop is located. You and I know that 'wherever two or three people are gathered together in Jesus Name' is where the church is at any given time. Two or three Christians are not required to have a pastor in order to be the living church of God.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:


[qb]

I notice also that you said those who do this are selfish. We all know you don't have the 'gift of disernment' so there is no way you can read the hearts of these people, especially since you seldom attend their services.

A "selfish" gift is one that is used only for "self" such as a "private" prayer language, quite foreign to Bible teaching. No other gift of the spirit is used only for "self." If there is, I invite you to come forward and demonstrate it.

Secondly, God speaking through the Apostle Paul tells the church at Corinth that the person who speaks ' . . . in an unknown tongue . . . . is really speaking to God.'(I Cor. 14:2) Are you now telling us that we are selfish to pray to God the Father in Heaven? Probably not. You just don't like the Lord giving the 'gift of tongues' so they can pray to Him.

Here you demonstrate your lack of understanding of these verses as I have explained countless of times. Yet you continue to quote only a portion of the verse, thus taking them out of their context. Paul said if one speaks in an unknown tongue he speaks in mysteries. It is not edifying to the entire church. It is a useless gift. It was not meant for private prayer. Don't pray to God with tongues. It was a sarcastic rebuke. I am sorry that you don't understand the English language very well, and cannot discenrn a rebuke from a comforting exhortation. Let me assure you that the statement was not the latter. It was a sharp rebuke not to pray or speak in tongues because no one could understand them. In that manner they were a useless gift. In that day and age tongues ALWAYS had to meet two basic criteria:
1. They had to edify the entire church--they were public, not private.
2. They always had to have an interpreter.
Those two conditions alone rule out a private prayer language. Please refer to your Bible. It is a much better source than the experiences of others.

Secondly, they did not have churches in the sense that many Christians think about buildings. Many believers worshipped in large homes of the wealthy so there would be more room. In some cases a small home.

I fully realize that. That is how our church started as well--in a home. Nothing strange about that. What has that got to do with the price of tea in China?

The Roman Catholic Church says that the church is where the bishop is located. You and I know that 'wherever two or three people are gathered together in Jesus Name' is where the church is at any given time. Two or three Christians are not required to have a pastor in order to be the living church of God.

No, Mat.18:20 is not a definition of a church. Where two or three are gathered together is not a church. What nonsense is this. Just becasue Christ is amnog two or three people it doesn't automatically make it a church. Christ is among my family also. But my family is not a church. Granted, a church is not the building. But there is definite structure in a church. Study the pastoral epiestles. Paul gives definite instruction to the pastor and deacons of the church, not to two or three gathered together. There was structure and organization in the church. There are two ordinances in the church. There was the carrying out of the Great Commission in the church. The church is more than just two or three gathered together. Mat.18:20 is at the end of a passage which speaks of "church discipline." It is not the definition of a church.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:


[qb]

I notice also that you said those who do this are selfish. We all know you don't have the 'gift of disernment' so there is no way you can read the hearts of these people, especially since you seldom attend their services.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DHK said:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A "selfish" gift is one that is used only for "self" such as a "private" prayer language, quite foreign to Bible teaching. No other gift of the spirit is used only for "self." If there is, I invite you to come forward and demonstrate it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Music4Him says......
I thought a selfish gift would be a gift mis-used for ones own personal/finanacial gain?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:

Music4Him says......
I thought a selfish gift would be a gift mis-used for ones own personal/finanacial gain?

No, not in the context of speaking of the gifts of the Spirit. All the gifts of the Spirit were given for the edification of the entire church. Not one of them was given for one's own use, even if it was for the edification of one's self. That would be selfish, since the gift was to be for the whole church, not just for one's self.

Outside of the gifts of spirit there are many examples. Being rich is not a bad thing in itself. But what good is it if you don't share it with others.
What about the matter of prayer. Do you pray for others? Or selfishly pray only for yourself? A person can do good things and still be selfish. When self is the center of your life, even if you do good: reading your Bible, praying, going to church, etc. you are still in the wrong. You may be doing all those things only for your self.

But the gifts of the spirit especially were for the edification of the entire church and no one had the right to use any one of them just for themselves.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

Are you also saying that saved members of your family are not 'priests unto the Lord?'

In Revelation 1:6 Jesus tells us that all saved people are priests unto God, just as the O.T. priests served and prayed to the Lord. [Exodus 19:6]. These priests including us under the N.T. system are priests in the Kingdom of God and thus also are members of His church. We are the 'temples of the Holy Spirit.' [I Corinthians 3:16-17]

I realize that in some Christian churches there is little said or believed as to the Presence of the Holy Spirit Who is always active on the lives of sinners and in the souls of we who are the people of God.

.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Are you also saying that saved members of your family are not 'priests unto the Lord?'

In Revelation 1:6 Jesus tells us that all saved people are priests unto God, just as the O.T. priests served and prayed to the Lord. [Exodus 19:6]. These priests including us under the N.T. system are priests in the Kingdom of God and thus also are members of His church. We are the 'temples of the Holy Spirit.' [I Corinthians 3:16-17]

I realize that in some Christian churches there is little said or believed as to the Presence of the Holy Spirit Who is always active on the lives of sinners and in the souls of we who are the people of God.

Ray, stick to the topic. What you have posted has nothing whatsoever to do with the gifts of the spirit. All the gifts of the Spirit were given to the entire church and for its edification.
If they weren't Ray, show me from the Bible, not with snide remarks.
DHK

 

[standingfirminChrist]

From what I see in the scripture about the day of Pentecost, it was not an unknown tongue or babbling that was spoken. The people of the city heard those speaking in their own languages. They understood the Gallileans speaking in their own dialect.

I have seen many visitors walk out of the Pentecostal Fellowship when tongues were spoken. Upon calling on them, I found that they were confused about the tongues people were speaking. The Spirit convicted me at that time. God is not the author of confusion. I began to look into deeper studies of the tongues in the body of Christ and found the tongues spoken in the fellowship were out of God's order and unbiblical.

We taped a service in a Wadsworth, Ohio meeting back in 93 where the service was going good. All of a sudden a woman began babbling in an undistinguishable tongue. About a minute later a man interpreted and the body began to thank and praise the Lord. Later in the service, the lady went off in tongues again and another interpretation was given and accepted.

Upon going home, we listened to the tape and discovered something very interesting, the messages in tongues were exactly the same word for word, syllable for syllable, yet there were two different interpretations!

At Eastern Gate Assembly of God in Greensboro, NC I attended many services in revivals. One of the members stood almost every night and would repeat the same syllable over and over again, nothing else. Just 'Paw' several times for about 50 to 65 seconds. Always, the pastor, Fred Riggins would interpret. Always, a different interpretation.

My friends, you say it is of God, but I do not see scripture to even say it is of God or in God's divine order.

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You were not on subject when you denied that 'where two or three are gathered in His Name He is in the midst' suggests a gathering of the church.

You just did not like my logic as stated on page 7. Read it again.

Quit running without answers!

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

Even non-Christians, reporter types, have tried to explain away the 'gifts of the Spirit,' with their tape recorders back in those years. I am a bit surprized that if you were a sincere worshiper of the Lord, that you would have tried to discredit Jesus.

Like I said the R.C. church would be your best bet because they are very solemn, if you can stand all of their doctrinal error. Like a morgue must mean very spiritual. I call it dead orthodoxy without the Presence of the Spirit of God.

King David danced before the Lord in celebration. Do you gentlemen blacken out verses like this too as you do in I Corinthians 12 & 14?

You might have brought your video along to watch him on that day of celebration of the Lord and His nation if they had that technology back then.

The Bible tells us that in Heaven there is constant worship and adoration of the Son. If you are planning on being there you better be prepared for the celebration and joy of Jesus in the Spirit of the Lord. I is not going to be open your hymnal to the three traditional hymns--one at the beginning, middle and concluding selection.

Maybe you can use your recorder in Heaven and make recommendations to the angels.

.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ray Berrian,

I was not trying to discredit Jesus. How many times have you gone back and listened to a message because something just did not sound right? That is not discrediting Jesus.

I grew up in a Pentecostal Church, Manassas Assembly of God on the corner of Maple and Quarry Street in Manassas Virginia. The church was sold back in the 80's to the Catholics, who turned it into Seton Hall. Funny thing is, the cornerstone was never changed... it still says Manassas Assembly of God.

Back on track, I grew up amongst the wagging tongues and the slain in the Spirit movement, and you know what?, I liked it. I was there for every service possible. Forward several years, I was ordained in a Pentecostal Fellowship other than AoG and continued to believe all was in God's order.

But the Spirit convicted my heart, not in the Church of God in Wadsworth, I only noticed the repeat after I got home, not before. The only reason I attended the AoG in Greensboro was that they were in revival and I like to visit other churches. That church was in revival for 5 nights. I attended every night. The messages were very good. But my heart was saddened at the fact that the tongues in the churches are being misused. If at best, they are edifying self more than the body.

[ December 31, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: standingfirminChrist ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

I do not tape messages/sermons though I see nothing wrong with doing this.

The preachers I listen to always preach the truth. They do not usually get off of controversial doctrines.

If I hear something I do not agree with, it is like 'water off a ducks back.'

There are some real nutty preachers out there, though they be very few--thank God. Have you ever hear of Mr. Camping from Family Radio that preaches his false doctrines around the world. He believes that the age of the church is over and that Christians should only listen to him and should quit going to church?

Happy New Year to you and your family.

Ray

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have heard Harold Camping, yes.

Unfortunately, there are many false prophets out there that we have to hear practically every day. That is why we are to 'Study to show ourselves approved unto God', that we might 'rightly divide the Word of Truth'.

I am against any teaching that the child of God can just stay at hom and turn on his or her radio or television for spiritual nourishment and growth.

The Bible tells us we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. The disciples were reminded at one point that 'the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up'. The Psalmist wrote, 'I was glad when they said unto me let us go unto the house of the Lord.'

There are many instances of the gathering of the people even as early as Genesis 49:10b.

I do know there are some that are bedridden and can't get out. Some, like me, are blind and cannot drive to church. That is where the neighbor should go by and visit the one who is able to go, but has no transportation. Go to visit the bedridden one, take the name of Jesus with you!

I am thankful that my wife still drives and we can go to church. There is nothing like fellowship and unity with the Brethren. Psalm 133:1 tells us 'Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell together in unity.'

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
standingfirminChrist,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Even non-Christians, reporter types, have tried to explain away the 'gifts of the Spirit,' with their tape recorders back in those years. I am a bit surprized that if you were a sincere worshiper of the Lord, that you would have tried to discredit Jesus.

Like I said the R.C. church would be your best bet because they are very solemn, if you can stand all of their doctrinal error. Like a morgue must mean very spiritual. I call it dead orthodoxy without the Presence of the Spirit of God.

King David danced before the Lord in celebration. Do you gentlemen blacken out verses like this too as you do in I Corinthians 12 & 14?

You might have brought your video along to watch him on that day of celebration of the Lord and His nation if they had that technology back then.

The Bible tells us that in Heaven there is constant worship and adoration of the Son. If you are planning on being there you better be prepared for the celebration and joy of Jesus in the Spirit of the Lord. I is not going to be open your hymnal to the three traditional hymns--one at the beginning, middle and concluding selection.

Maybe you can use your recorder in Heaven and make recommendations to the angels.

. </font>[/QUOTE]This is usually what resorts I find from talking to those who speak in tongues. That becasue there is nothing "exciting" going on in the service it is dead. It depends what ones calls exciting. I find it very exciting to sing spiritual songs of praise and open the Word of God. it is enough for me. I do not need any other "sign" or "proof" that God is who He says He is.
I understand tonuges in the bible perfectly. I have my doubts about some of my theology but tongues is not one. I find that the tongues movement going on today, as so many have stated, in the tongues moveement can be proven to be in error by shifting it through the word of God. There is no prayer language, there is no special need for it...I will pray with the spirit and the understanding also and I do not need a sign other then God's Word that He is who He says He is. The tongues movement have gone from one silly movement to another. Seeking another sign or what God can show them. Yet they run the ailsways, barking like dogs, healing services, laughing fits and any other thing that will come down the pike. God gave us His word that is enough for me. I do not condemn a weaker brother who needs more though.

 

[tamborine lady]

Timtoolman said:Yet they run the ailsways, barking like dogs, healing services, laughing fits and any other thing that will come down the pike. God gave us His word that is enough for me. I do not condemn a weaker brother who needs more though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, please don't lump us all together. I have never seen anyone bark like a dog,and if I do, I will be one of the first to give them a strong rebuke.

Second of all, what makes you think we are the "weaker brethren" because we have something DIFFERENT, Not better or worse, just DIFFERENT!!

I am not weaker than you, just because I have some gift that you don't believe in!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam